not looking good for enh

[aether99]

Some people may argue otherwise but myself I am quite saddened by hearing blizzard say shaman is one of the farthest trees along for cata.

From what ive seen so far for enhancement cata makes our one major pve issue worse (movement fights) due to lavalash and the new talents that interact with it.

And from a pvp perspective we are still watered down and generally inneffective (anyone whose good enough can make any class a winner i know).

Maybe enh is the least developed of the shaman trees, maybe not. But i know its just another notch in my enh shamans coffin, i dont want to feel like im being overtaxed in dps compared to other hybrids along with feeling weak in pvp. and by weak i dont mean i want my shaman to wtfpwn everyone, for instance one of my fav classes to pvp with is a unholy specced DK who doesnt have a ton of burst, but is good at assisting. what i mean is i feel ineffective when i bring my shaman into pvp.

Ill hold my decision off until they are finalized but so far my shaman isnt looking too good. and no, you can have his stuff lol

edit: ive had my enh shaman since the release of wow, so its not like this is a easy decision for me to make either.

[Jimmyx]

Yup I understand your point of view.
I have been playung enhancement shaman for over 2 years and I'm afraid too.
We have never been as good dps as other hybrids like ferals, ret, fury or even shadow priest n last months but we had a lot of unique buffs - we used to be important n raids.
In wotlk we "lost" 20% melee haste and agi/str buff . Now Dks got it and everyone knows than UH DK is much better aoe dps than enha and frost DK is a but better single-target dps.
Why do we need enha in raid when we can take 2 dks that make better dps ?
I felt this pain when we got to lk 25 hc. I used to be on all first kills with my guild exept this one because "enha is worse than dk".
In cata, even ret paladin gets 20% haste for raid - they already have a lot off unique buffs - you cant have good 25m raid without ~3 paladins. And you need only 1 shaman for BL. Oh w8.. We even are going to "share" our BL with mages so
1. No more shamans on arenas
2. You dont need tham in raids
If we lose all our "no more unique" buffs we should have as good dps as other classes.
Yes you can say " oh yea shaman is hybrid he cant have good dps!" You know.. Its not pre-tbc wow. Now you are not needed in raid unless you deal as good dps ad pure dps class. What can we see in higscores n logs?
Best dps classes:
1. mage
2. fury
3. rogue
4. feral
only 2 or those 4 are pure dps classes
As i told some weeks before. I dont want shaman to be op, i just want them to be as good as other classes/specs

[Addamus]

As i told some weeks before. I dont want shaman to be op, i just want them to be as good as other classes/specs

You also have to take into account utility. Shaman won't bring as much dps as other classes, even most hybrids because they bring a fair amount of utility to a group. They've got totems, Bloodlust/Heroism, ability to rez, and the ability to heal if needed. And Blizz has said in the past, the more utility a class bring, the lower the classes dps.

[aether99]

i dont really have a problem with our unique buffs going to other classes, but i get what your saying

---------- Post added 2010-07-26 at 11:27 AM ----------

You also have to take into account utility. Shaman won't bring as much dps as other classes, even most hybrids because they bring a fair amount of utility to a group. They've got totems, Bloodlust/Heroism, ability to rez, and the ability to heal if needed. And Blizz has said in the past, the more utility a class bring, the lower the classes dps.

in which case a druid should do bottom of the barrel dps, but that doesnt hold true.

[Addamus]

That's true. I never said the system worked perfectly. But it does work to some extent. If you take equally geared and skilled players, one rogue and one moomkin, I can almost bet on a simple, Patchwerk style fight, the rogue will outdps the moonkin. But looking at the two classes, the moonkin has a few forms of crowd control, the ability to heal if need be, and even the ability to tank for a short amount of time. The rogue on the other hand, simply has crowd control, and not as widely usable as the moonkins. So the system does work when it comes to pures vs hybrids. Hybrids vs hybrids, on the other hand, is still somewhat flawed. Hell, even pure vs pure is flawed as well, granted, not as much as it is for hybrids.

[Swiftninja]

Enh Shamans arent even close to having the utility they used to have. No longer off-tank effectively,heals arent strong enough at end game raiding, buffs no longer unique, i mean in essence Enh is far from being a hybrid in that spec.

[Vargarii]

You also have to take into account utility. Shaman won't bring as much dps as other classes, even most hybrids because they bring a fair amount of utility to a group. They've got totems, Bloodlust/Heroism, ability to rez, and the ability to heal if needed. And Blizz has said in the past, the more utility a class bring, the lower the classes dps.

Our mana pools are going to make it so that we can be used for healing in no way, dks and paladins are going to be bringing nearly as many buffs and utility as we are, without being as heavily taxed as dps. This is a completely invalid argument.

[Addamus]

They're changing the off-tank issue in Cataclysm though. With the Unleash Weapon skill and the changed Rockbiter Weapon, a shaman will be able to taunt and generate more threat. So I see various fights throughout that may call for a shaman tank for a short while. And also with Healing Rain, that's going to be a fairly usable aoe heal for all shaman specs, including enhance. But the point is, while their utility may not be as strong as it used to be, it is in fact still there. Like I said in my last post, while the system may be flawed, it does still work to some degree.

[aether99]

Enh Shamans arent even close to having the utility they used to have. No longer off-tank effectively,heals arent strong enough at end game raiding, buffs no longer unique, i mean in essence Enh is far from being a hybrid in that spec.

this is the feeling i have as well. you say we can heal in a pinch? our heals will not save someone. we can rez...big woop, now if you said battlerez id get behind you on that. totems are inferior version of other buffs (just because of the drawbacks of totems themselves), bloodlust isnt unique anymore come cata (mages get it too).

we dont have the unique excuse anymore, totems are actually worse mechanic wise then other buffs, and offhealing just...doesnt happen in endgame, its not nearly worth it.

[Vargarii]

Also, we get 9 talent points of pvp specific talents, some of which aren't even that spectacular.

With the health increases, toughness should probably just be taken out all together. Totemic Vigor and Earthen power should be combined, culling this number to 4, and opening up 2 slots valued at 5 talent points with which maybe they could focus on a more pve aspect of shaman's other issues.

[Addamus]

Our mana pools are going to make it so that we can be used for healing in no way, dks and paladins are going to be bringing nearly as many buffs and utility as we are, without being as heavily taxed as dps. This is a completely invalid argument.

How is it invalid? Like it or not, shaman are hybrid classes. They do in fact bring more utility to a group than pure classes. Therefore they're dps will be lower than said pure class. I've said already the system works for pure vs hybrid. Not so much for hybrid vs hybrid or pure vs pure. As much as you don't like the fact, it still stands.

[aether99]

They're changing the off-tank issue in Cataclysm though. With the Unleash Weapon skill and the changed Rockbiter Weapon, a shaman will be able to taunt and generate more threat. So I see various fights throughout that may call for a shaman tank for a short while. And also with Healing Rain, that's going to be a fairly usable aoe heal for all shaman specs, including enhance. But the point is, while their utility may not be as strong as it used to be, it is in fact still there. Like I said in my last post, while the system may be flawed, it does still work to some degree.

im sorry but i have a hard time stifling laughter when someone brings up shaman off-tanking. at low levels sure, once you get to outland though, maybe even before then, its a worthless feature that just gets you killed. there will be no situation where you couldnt just take a dps warrior/dk/druid/paladin and do better then trying to get a shaman to offtank.

utility at this point in a raiding environment is a illusion at best, and a crutch to limit us at worst. the system is HEAVILY flawed, and doesnt work nearly well enough.

[Addamus]

this is the feeling i have as well. you say we can heal in a pinch? our heals will not save someone. we can rez...big woop, now if you said battlerez id get behind you on that. totems are inferior version of other buffs (just because of the drawbacks of totems themselves), bloodlust isnt unique anymore come cata (mages get it too).

we dont have the unique excuse anymore, totems are actually worse mechanic wise then other buffs, and offhealing just...doesnt happen in endgame, its not nearly worth it.

This also brings about another one of Blizzard's main focus points. They've said they don't want classes to be so unique that you have to save a spot in every raid for that class. They're giving mages Bloodlust so if you can't find a shaman, you at least have the chance of finding a mage. They're moving toward the desired 'bring the player, not the class' mentality, which is a good thing. Would you rather be brought to a raid because you can give everyone else a 30 second buff when the boss hits 30%, or would you want to be brought to a raid because you can pull your weight?

I've played around with the talent trees a lot since they came out and I don't really feel like enhancement is getting as gimped as everyone thinks. But only time will tell for sure. And if they do get the short end of the stick at launch, give it a few patches and they will probably be back up where they should be.

[Dundebuns]

It was like this at the WotLK beta. Soon GC will be giving reassurances that Shaman will be fine, and then he won't deliver.

Also, I see the new threat abilities making Enhance Shaman candidates for kiting on certain encounters (such as the final boss in BRC)

[Addamus]

im sorry but i have a hard time stifling laughter when someone brings up shaman off-tanking. at low levels sure, once you get to outland though, maybe even before then, its a worthless feature that just gets you killed. there will be no situation where you couldnt just take a dps warrior/dk/druid/paladin and do better then trying to get a shaman to offtank.

utility at this point in a raiding environment is a illusion at best, and a crutch to limit us at worst. the system is HEAVILY flawed, and doesnt work nearly well enough.

Have you read the blue posts considering raids in Cataclysm? They're aiming to get away from the whole 'blow shit up, screw CC' mind frame that came about with Wrath. They've said they are putting in more instances for non-tank classes to step up and do a small bit of tanking. And the tool tips for Rockbiter and Unleash Weapon are hinting even more at circumstances of shaman tanking.

[aether99]

This also brings about another one of Blizzard's main focus points. They've said they don't want classes to be so unique that you have to save a spot in every raid for that class. They're giving mages Bloodlust so if you can't find a shaman, you at least have the chance of finding a mage. They're moving toward the desired 'bring the player, not the class' mentality, which is a good thing. Would you rather be brought to a raid because you can give everyone else a 30 second buff when the boss hits 30%, or would you want to be brought to a raid because you can pull your weight?

I've played around with the talent trees a lot since they came out and I don't really feel like enhancement is getting as gimped as everyone thinks. But only time will tell for sure. And if they do get the short end of the stick at launch, give it a few patches and they will probably be back up where they should be.

you misunderstand me a bit here, i am fine with not having unique buffs/abilities to bring to a raid, never had a problem with that. i was just saying we dont have that as a excuse anymore.

---------- Post added 2010-07-26 at 12:03 PM ----------

Have you read the blue posts considering raids in Cataclysm? They're aiming to get away from the whole 'blow shit up, screw CC' mind frame that came about with Wrath. They've said they are putting in more instances for non-tank classes to step up and do a small bit of tanking. And the tool tips for Rockbiter and Unleash Weapon are hinting even more at circumstances of shaman tanking.

ive seen the talk about going beyond blow shit up,screw CC, but i havent seen a single mention of non-tank classes doing any form of tanking. rockbiter is a low level spell designed for low level content, where a shaman can tank/offtank.

if someone can dig up that post regarding non-tank classes tanking in cata, ill gladly shut my trap about it

[Addamus]

you misunderstand me a bit here, i am fine with not having unique buffs/abilities to bring to a raid, never had a problem with that. i was just saying we dont have that as a excuse anymore.

Do you really want an excuse though? Don't get me wrong, cause I'm not implying that you're bad, but if you need an excuse like having a unique buff to be invited to a raid, then it's likely you can't pull your weight as well as someone else. Again, not trying to start a flame war, cause this thread has been pretty civil so far and I enjoy that. But why use an excuse when you can just pull your weight?

[aether99]

Do you really want an excuse though? Don't get me wrong, cause I'm not implying that you're bad, but if you need an excuse like having a unique buff to be invited to a raid, then it's likely you can't pull your weight as well as someone else. Again, not trying to start a flame war, cause this thread has been pretty civil so far and I enjoy that. But why use an excuse when you can just pull your weight?

again misunderstanding, im saying we cant use it as a excuse to why we do less dps. which is a good thing imo, because it means we should do more dps.

edit: i am also enjoying the civility of this so far

[Cerus]

Guess you miss the part about damage being easy to tune once mechanics are working as intended. Guess you also think "farthest along" means finished or anywhere near finished.

Stop your QQing and learn to be patient.

[Addamus]

Okay, that was my bad then. But the main thing I've been aiming at, is while the system is broken, the main thing it's there for is a pure vs hybrid scenario. Wrath did get rid of a lot of utility for most hybrid classes, which upset me. But from what I've seen so far, I've got hopes that they're bringing back the need to crowd control, not just in raids, but in 5-mans as well. Which I feel this is going to help bring back a lot of utility for a lot of classes.