In Defense of Sylvanas Con.: Sylvanas is now the sucketh.

[Mynta]

Argument: "Sylvanas is using former agents of the Scourge - Val Kyr."
Counter: Both factions are using former agents of the Scourge - Death Knights.

Except Death Knights don't resurrect dead enemies into soldiers for themselves. (They use the bones of their enemies to form a ghoul, not the same thing).

"Sylvanas is raising an undead army to do her bidding... just like Arthas"
Counter: Forsaken have free will, the Scourge don't, as such, the only similarity is that both armies are undead. If all armies of undead are synonymous does that mean all armies of living are equivalent to each other as well?

If this were true, then most Alliance soldiers that would be revived by Sylvanas would most likely rebel against her cause? (only one) When nothing of the sort has been said, they will force them into slavery for the Forsaken.

The only evidence you ever get of Forsaken being mind controlled is when Sylvanas has you charm newly raised Forsaken in WPL, however, this happens after she gets killed by a newly raised Godfrey, thus pointing at this as a new development and safety measure.

So a dead Alliance NPC is raised from the dead to fight along side the enemy faction, if you were killed and rez'd by your enemies what would you do? Join them? Face it they weren't going to let ANY of the people they brought back do whatever they wanted to do, if that were the case the Alliance would now have a large amount of undead players, they are purposefully brainwashing these dead people.

Oh, and you know what other raised dead don't have free will? Ghouls.
Raising a mindless undead army to carry out orders? Gee, that sounds familiar. Oh right, Army of the Dead, that DK spell.

Ghouls don't have a brain, they wouldn't be able to think for themselves if they wanted to. It's exactly like you said: "mindless undead" right?
Think Raise Ghoul, compared to another DK spell you might have forgotten about:
Raise Ally.

Argument: "Sylvanas uses the plague despite Garrosh's orders, she's committing war crimes."
Counter: First - There are no treaties in Azeroth preventing the usage of such weapons, not to mention these weapons are no more horrific than the spells players use on a regular basis, the only difference here is scale. Disease spells are just as much biological weapons, and curses could be consider even worse. Warlocks go around stealing souls.

This is your worst argument/counter yet. A grenade =/= a nuclear missile, likewise a disease spell that harms a few people who can fight against it =/= mass genocide that will kill innocent people that have no way of defending themselves. Also as a note you should take into consideration:
spell mechanics in WoW =/= WoW lore. Kil'jaeden is lvl 70, he would get wooped by heroic modes Lich King duh. doesn't work.

Argument: "Sylvanas is forcing 'innocents' into undeath"
Counter: Crowley forces 'innocents' into worgenism, telling them they can partake in the curse and join him, or he'll leave them to fend for themselves against the Forsaken, to put it frankly, leave them to die.

I've already countered this, but why not i'll add another. A small group of worgen led by Crowley is doing this, Sylvanas and her Forsaken army are ALL doing this, Forsaken players help do this even, I don't see Worgen quests asking you to go bite Gilneans do you? Nope. In fact you actually help those who are still human escape from the Forsaken. Everything the Gilneans do is a response to the Forsaken assault, Gilneans didn't attack first. The Forsaken did.

thoughts/concerns

[Emaluri]

Please keep it to one thread. We have enough threads on the subject.

[Herecius]

Most of your arguments about Alliance NPCs being raised should automatically be turning against the Forsaken don't necessarily hold as much water as you think they do. For starters, remember that the majority of the Forsaken - whom commit many heinous acts, of this I will not argue - were once citizens of Lordearon, a nation that was definitely not comprised entirely of psychopathic alchemists before becoming Forsaken. Becoming undead tends to twist one's mind, apparently. Additionally, these soldiers being raised - would logic REALLY point to simply turning against their apparent captors? Many would likely turn their first thoughts to 'I must survive, now that I have been given a second chance at 'life,' and would quite possibly defect to the Forsaken, as opposed to simply being obliterated the instant they decide to turn against them. Your counter argument would likely be that Godfrey turned against them; mine is that not everybody is Godfrey.

[Mynta]

Most of your arguments about Alliance NPCs being raised should automatically be turning against the Forsaken don't necessarily hold as much water as you think they do. For starters, remember that the majority of the Forsaken - whom commit many heinous acts, of this I will not argue - were once citizens of Lordearon, a nation that was definitely not comprised entirely of psychopathic alchemists before becoming Forsaken. Becoming undead tends to twist one's mind, apparently. Additionally, these soldiers being raised - would logic REALLY point to simply turning against their apparent captors? Many would likely turn their first thoughts to 'I must survive, now that I have been given a second chance at 'life,' and would quite possibly defect to the Forsaken, as opposed to simply being obliterated the instant they decide to turn against them. Your counter argument would likely be that Godfrey turned against them; mine is that not everybody is Godfrey.

What did all the Forsaken do after being freed of the Lich King's (their master) mind control over them? Rebel. It only makes sense that these people would do the same.

[Lore Lord]

The argument that turning someone into a forsaken is alright because they keep free will is similar to saying making orcs drink the blood of Mannoroth is okay because they keep free will. Undead lose all emotions except the thirst for vengeance and retain nothing but the ability to think coldly and logically. Most probably realize that while they hate Sylvanas rebelling will simply get them killed. The argument that Godfrey rebelled doesn't hold either, Sylvanas was able to rebel against the Lich King and shoot Arthas in the back of the head and would of killed him had kel'Thuzad not intervened, it doesn't mean all of the Lich King's minions would have been able to do the same.

[Rainbow Thunder]

Crowley forces 'innocents' into worgenism, telling them they can partake in the curse and join him, or he'll leave them to fend for themselves against the Forsaken, to put it frankly, leave them to die.

Lord Darius Crowley says: The Forsaken have broken through your defenses, magistrate.
Lord Darius Crowley says: You are out of time.
Lord Darius Crowley says: A decision must be made!
Lord Darius Crowley says: Die in battle and be raised as a servent of the Forsaken or...
Lord Darius Crowley says: Drink in my blood and be reborn as worgen, immune to the depravity of the Forsaken.
Lord Darius Crowley says: Help us destroy the Forsaken and retake Lordaeron for the Alliance!
Magistrate Henry Maleb says: We would rather die than be turned into worgen, but seeing how even death provides no relief from the atrocities of this war...
Magistrate Henry Maleb says: We choose vengeance!

Totally forcing people into worgenism.

[Herecius]

The argument that turning someone into a forsaken is alright because they keep free will is similar to saying making orcs drink the blood of Mannoroth is okay because they keep free will. Undead lose all emotions except the thirst for vengeance and retain nothing but the ability to think coldly and logically. Most probably realize that while they hate Sylvanas rebelling will simply get them killed. The argument that Godfrey rebelled doesn't hold either, Sylvanas was able to rebel against the Lich King and shoot Arthas in the back of the head and would of killed him had kel'Thuzad not intervened, it doesn't mean all of the Lich King's minions would have been able to do the same.

Indeed. I had actually almost forgotten about that event in WC3, where Sylvanas nearly kills Arthas before he can return to Northrend and become the Lich King... imagine how different EVERYTHING would have turned out, had she succeeded.

[Deleted]

Lord Darius Crowley says: The Forsaken have broken through your defenses, magistrate.
Lord Darius Crowley says: You are out of time.
Lord Darius Crowley says: A decision must be made!
Lord Darius Crowley says: Die in battle and be raised as a servent of the Forsaken or...
Lord Darius Crowley says: Drink in my blood and be reborn as worgen, immune to the depravity of the Forsaken.
Lord Darius Crowley says: Help us destroy the Forsaken and retake Lordaeron for the Alliance!
Magistrate Henry Maleb says: We would rather die than be turned into worgen, but seeing how even death provides no relief from the atrocities of this war...
Magistrate Henry Maleb says: We choose vengeance!

Totally forcing people into worgenism.

no forcing would be to say drink my blood now much like the demons and the orcs, as you can see crowly is giving the choice

[Rainbow Thunder]

no forcing would be to say drink my blood now much like the demons and the orcs, as you can see crowly is giving the choice

lol i was saying it in more of a sarcastic manner lol i guess people can't pick up on that through text.

but yes i agree he isn't forcing people to be worgen

[Reinhard von Lohengramm]

i would believe that they are being forced into worgen

Humans: We hate the worgen, were gonna go undead.
Crowley: Then i have no choice but to 1. Force change into worgen 2. Kill you and dispose of the corpses.

Ya, say they are going 2 go 2 the enemy and they would have been slaughtered right then and there. Inc Alliance fanboy idiots

[delus]

Why did we wipe out the scourge again? Those guys were all right. Arthas was a much better leader than Sylvanas.

[Reyina]

give me a minute while i counter your counters!

[Gaexion Ramza Beoulve]

always and forever

[mordale]

up hill battles kinda hard eh?

[HalcyonicPlague]

Her move is a logical one. She needs her race to survive because... they're her people and they're dying. She has to point herself at some sort of goal. The Lich King is dead leaving her with little left. Go into isolation with her people is not an option. She has humans and the alliance looking North to the old human kingdoms and thinking about reclaiming them, so given that she has little choice but to fight. However, it is a losing war because she cannot gain new people to her side. So what does she do? Make more. Makes perfect sense to me.

[Zicus]

i would believe that they are being forced into worgen

Humans: We hate the worgen, were gonna go undead.
Crowley: Then i have no choice but to 1. Force change into worgen 2. Kill you and dispose of the corpse

Ya, say they are going 2 go 2 the enemy and they would have been slaughtered right then and there. Inc Alliance fanboy idiots

Nah they would just be like very well then and leave them to their doom only to storm the place later when they are forsaken

[mordale]

at the risk of calling down the crusade upon there heads? not a very logical choice in the long run, which makes sense she never was too good of long term thinking going back to her choice of fighting arthas head on aand not sending word back to silvermoon to call for evacuation.

[Irony]

Chose to make a new thread because?

[mordale]

idk they don't exactly seem the most logical bunch.

[Desimar]

Argument: "Sylvanas is using former agents of the Scourge - Val Kyr."
Counter: Both factions are using former agents of the Scourge - Death Knights.

Except Death Knights don't resurrect dead enemies into soldiers for themselves. (They use the bones of their enemies to form a ghoul, not the same thing).

"Sylvanas is raising an undead army to do her bidding... just like Arthas"
Counter: Forsaken have free will, the Scourge don't, as such, the only similarity is that both armies are undead. If all armies of undead are synonymous does that mean all armies of living are equivalent to each other as well?

If this were true, then most Alliance soldiers that would be revived by Sylvanas would most likely rebel against her cause? (only one) When nothing of the sort has been said, they will force them into slavery for the Forsaken.

The only evidence you ever get of Forsaken being mind controlled is when Sylvanas has you charm newly raised Forsaken in WPL, however, this happens after she gets killed by a newly raised Godfrey, thus pointing at this as a new development and safety measure.

So a dead Alliance NPC is raised from the dead to fight along side the enemy faction, if you were killed and rez'd by your enemies what would you do? Join them? Face it they weren't going to let ANY of the people they brought back do whatever they wanted to do, if that were the case the Alliance would now have a large amount of undead players, they are purposefully brainwashing these dead people.

Oh, and you know what other raised dead don't have free will? Ghouls.
Raising a mindless undead army to carry out orders? Gee, that sounds familiar. Oh right, Army of the Dead, that DK spell.

Ghouls don't have a brain, they wouldn't be able to think for themselves if they wanted to. It's exactly like you said: "mindless undead" right?
Think Raise Ghoul, compared to another DK spell you might have forgotten about:
Raise Ally.

Argument: "Sylvanas uses the plague despite Garrosh's orders, she's committing war crimes."
Counter: First - There are no treaties in Azeroth preventing the usage of such weapons, not to mention these weapons are no more horrific than the spells players use on a regular basis, the only difference here is scale. Disease spells are just as much biological weapons, and curses could be consider even worse. Warlocks go around stealing souls.

This is your worst argument/counter yet. A grenade =/= a nuclear missile, likewise a disease spell that harms a few people who can fight against it =/= mass genocide that will kill innocent people that have no way of defending themselves. Also as a note you should take into consideration:
spell mechanics in WoW =/= WoW lore. Kil'jaeden is lvl 70, he would get wooped by heroic modes Lich King duh. doesn't work.

Argument: "Sylvanas is forcing 'innocents' into undeath"
Counter: Crowley forces 'innocents' into worgenism, telling them they can partake in the curse and join him, or he'll leave them to fend for themselves against the Forsaken, to put it frankly, leave them to die.

I've already countered this, but why not i'll add another. A small group of worgen led by Crowley is doing this, Sylvanas and her Forsaken army are ALL doing this, Forsaken players help do this even, I don't see Worgen quests asking you to go bite Gilneans do you? Nope. In fact you actually help those who are still human escape from the Forsaken. Everything the Gilneans do is a response to the Forsaken assault, Gilneans didn't attack first. The Forsaken did.

thoughts/concerns

Umm the rezzed forsaken do NOT have free will. If you look at the quest text and game mechanics you'll see the val'ky actually force the raised undead to fight using mind control.