10% SP buff??

[ProTech]

Yes because mages doing a FUCK TON more dps,have bloodlust, and 10% spellpower buff is fair?

Yeah but we can't heal, and have to wait 15 minutes for a random dungeon... Also known as hybrid tax.

[thebabo]

Arcane Mages do more damage when the have more mana, and Mage Armor provides mana regen. So this could mean that Mage Armor is better for Arcane.

lol

[Gilian]

Wrong. Given equal gear and skill, mages are mathematically lower DPS than every. other. class. why do you think paragon didn't bring mages on their world first heroic LK 25 kill? In fact, they said precisely that was why. Now, that's of course in the current game, which obviously you have to be talking about otherwise you're crying before you're hurt.

Cataclysm may be different. Until then, stop complaining about mages getting all your buffs. Lots of other classes are losing their unique buffs. Priests are losing fort's exclusivity to warriors of all classes. so shh.

They didn't bring mages, ON THAT FIGHT, because it's a heavy movement fight. They also didn't bring any dps shaman EVER. Only one resto shaman for bloodlust.

I also want to see that math.

---------- Post added 2010-07-29 at 08:14 AM ----------

he's a good reliable player? seems everyone just wants to be brought for the buff and not their skill/personality. the more you argue it, the more you shape my argument for me. also, the hybrid tax isn't based off what buffs you bring, it's based off of how many different roles you can fulfill.

Well, it's not a good argument because if you find a mage who is good and reliable than you would take him over the shaman. I can use the same argument others use: "sunwelled". Or was there not even one mage who was good and reliable in TBC and all warlocks were?

The "hybrid tax" IS based of what buffs you bring otherwise all hybrids would be forced to heal or tank because their dps is lower than any pure dps and they don't bring anything else to the raid. It's just logic that you take the one with the highest dps to your raid. You don't want bad players.

[Potato Bus]

OP, I'd like a explanation of this signature please. What exactly do you mean by this? If you mean it in the way I think you mean it, I think you need to grow up and get a life.

Blizzard is trying to (and has been) implement a system of bringing the player, not forcing groups to take a specific class (or have someone play a specific class) JUST because they want X buff. The current stigma with this ideal is that only shamans have Bloodlust/Heroism, and EVERYONE wants it in their group. So all groups want a shaman, and I've seen it plenty of times where groups are requiring a 5.7k GS (I know, pugs...) and have 1 spot left, no shamans, and literally take any shaman and carry them JUST for Bloodlust. I wish I could get carried on occasion because I picked a mage when I logged in for the first time (not really, I like actively contributing to the success of runs based on my ability to play, but I hope you see my point). The "OH WAIT" is a reference to how this mentality will change when 4.0 hits.

The end tidbit of my first post was also a tongue-in-cheek throw back to warlocks who come to the mage forums on occasion and gloat about sustaining themselves on mage tears. I might retrospectively consider it in bad taste, but I don't enjoy catering to people who lack a sense of humor.

But last time I checked, this is a game. You, sir, are obviously (and ironically) taking this all toooooooo seriously.

Man I rarely come on these mage forums, but:

Does this surprise you? Lets laugh at all the crying shamans, HA HA THEY SUCK. I would love to laugh in YOUR face when mages get nerfed to the ground, 'when'. Have some fucking respect.

Rage much? This is a Mage forum. It's not like I went to the shaman forums, made a new thread titled "EAT THAT SHAMANS, I GOTZ ALL UR BUFFZ - MAGE LOVE". Sounds like you're a little disappointed in the change. Why not bring up your thoughts on why this is a bad idea instead of bitching me out? That was the original intent of this thread (was also intended for mages, to inform and ask about the change, and what impact it may have on mages).

I did just venture over to the shaman forums and post some of my concerns, which can be viewed here: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...=1#post8467567

[killzwitch]

Blizz just need to remove the hybrid tax altogether, if there was a pure class that was a 'sage' or something similar to the playstyle and looks of an elemental shaman I would play that. I don't play resto or enhancement, never will. Shouldn't be penalised by those defunct options. Pures have the option to reroll, reroll tax please.

From what Blizz have said, it appears the hybrid tax is slowly diminishing, with unique buffs being given to other classes who do better DPS (currently) than an elemental shaman (and it superior ways, as totems are clunky) it would be folly to let Shamans sit 5/10% below another class bringing the rain. Mastery is a fab solution to this, Blizzard can easily adjust the base power of Mastery - Overload base is 30% say...they shift it to 32% etc, they have stated this is in part why they like the mastery system so much. Lets see how it plays out.

I'm happy other people are getting Shaman buffs, but if we share out buffs and people even get upgrades in terms of mobility I'd like to see them sharing their DPS with us. IE Equal.

[ProTech]

lol

Thanks for the insightful comment. The comment was about Cataclysm, before the shamans started to troll in here. Why is it so laughable to use Mage Armor in Cataclysm as Arcane when our mastery says:

Mana Adept: Arcane will deal damage based how much mana the mage has. For example, Arcane mages will do much more damage at 100% mana than at 50% mana. If they begin to get low on mana, they will likely want to use an ability or mechanic to bring their mana up to increase their damage.

---------- Post added 2010-07-29 at 09:21 AM ----------

The "hybrid tax" IS based of what buffs you bring otherwise all hybrids would be forced to heal or tank because their dps is lower than any pure dps and they don't bring anything else to the raid. It's just logic that you take the one with the highest dps to your raid. You don't want bad players.

You are wrong. Read this from GC:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...77330431&sid=1

Some snippets:

Hybrid = can respec to fulfill a different role (damage, tanking, or healing).
Hybrid != can fill multiple roles at the same time.
Hybrid != has awesome, amazing buffs or utility.
Hybrid != pure. Beyond that, there are no shades of gray among hybrids.

Just because you’re not interested in doing anything other than damage does not qualify your class as a pure as long as the option to change roles is there. For the pure classes the only option is to reroll. We think the pure classes would start to disappear over time, at least from high-end raiding, if there was no advantage for being a pure. The hybrid advantage is flexibility.

[Deleted]

Racism anyone?? hehe, just dont deny it.

[henern]

Yes because mages doing a FUCK TON more dps,have bloodlust, and 10% spellpower buff is fair?

Welcome to the hybrid tax

[Swizzle]

OP, I'd like a explanation of this signature please. What exactly do you mean by this? If you mean it in the way I think you mean it, I think you need to grow up and get a life.

Man I rarely come on these mage forums, but:



Does this surprise you? Lets laugh at all the crying shamans, HA HA THEY SUCK. I would love to laugh in YOUR face when mages get nerfed to the ground, 'when'. Have some fucking respect.

the bolded part really made me chuckle.

[Gilian]

Thanks for the insightful comment. The comment was about Cataclysm, before the shamans started to troll in here. Why is it so laughable to use Mage Armor in Cataclysm as Arcane when our mastery says:

Mana Adept: Arcane will deal damage based how much mana the mage has. For example, Arcane mages will do much more damage at 100% mana than at 50% mana. If they begin to get low on mana, they will likely want to use an ability or mechanic to bring their mana up to increase their damage.

---------- Post added 2010-07-29 at 09:21 AM ----------



You are wrong. Read this from GC:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...77330431&sid=1

Some snippets:

Hybrid = can respec to fulfill a different role (damage, tanking, or healing).
Hybrid != can fill multiple roles at the same time.
Hybrid != has awesome, amazing buffs or utility.
Hybrid != pure. Beyond that, there are no shades of gray among hybrids.

Just because you’re not interested in doing anything other than damage does not qualify your class as a pure as long as the option to change roles is there. For the pure classes the only option is to reroll. We think the pure classes would start to disappear over time, at least from high-end raiding, if there was no advantage for being a pure. The hybrid advantage is flexibility.

First. So you don't think that if, let's say, X who is a pure dps class who can do 15000 dps brings BL and a 10% sp buff to the raid will get a spot over Y who is a "hybrid" class who can do 13000 dps brings BL and a 10% sp buff to the raid? So this hybrid class is not forced to heal or tank (except when you don't give a crap about 2000 dps, wich most top guilds do care about)? See Vanilla and TBC.

Second. "Hybrid != has awesome, amazing buffs or utility." So hybrid tax IS based on what buffs you bring.

Third. "We think the pure classes would start to disappear over time, at least from high-end raiding, if there was no advantage for being a pure."
They have an advantage because they bring amazing buffs or utility. Being able to change spec to healer or tank is not an advantage that will get you a spot in a raid over someone who does more dps than you.

[Micke]

Second. "Hybrid != has awesome, amazing buffs or utility." So hybrid tax IS based on what buffs you bring.

Dont you wonder what that "!" infront of the = means?

[Milamber]

Imagine a world where Shamans deal the same amount of damage as Mages.
Then imagine a world where mages can heal.

[Swizzle]

First. So you don't think that if, let's say, X who is a pure dps class who can do 15000 dps brings BL and a 10% sp buff to the raid will get a spot over Y who is a "hybrid" class who can do 13000 dps brings BL and a 10% sp buff to the raid? So this hybrid class is not forced to heal or tank (except when you don't give a crap about 2000 dps, wich most top guilds do care about)? See Vanilla and TBC.

Second. "Hybrid != has awesome, amazing buffs or utility." So hybrid tax IS based on what buffs you bring.

Third. "We think the pure classes would start to disappear over time, at least from high-end raiding, if there was no advantage for being a pure."
They have an advantage because they bring amazing buffs or utility. Being able to change spec to healer or tank is not an advantage that will get you a spot in a raid over someone who does more dps than you.

it means that player X is a better player than player Y, so should be brought anyway regardless of what buffs they bring.

people also have to realize that added utility comes at the cost of lowered DPS, so if fire mages bring an extra buff, their personal DPS will be brought down slightly to compensate.

lastly........sssssssssuuuuuuuuuuunnnnnnnnnnnwwwwwwwwwweeeeeeellllllllllllllllllllllllllll lllllllllllllllllll.

[Gardod]

Third. "We think the pure classes would start to disappear over time, at least from high-end raiding, if there was no advantage for being a pure."
They have an advantage because they bring amazing buffs or utility. Being able to change spec to healer or tank is not an advantage that will get you a spot in a raid over someone who does more dps than you.

What Blizz means is: Imagine Mage and Ele shammy do same dps, have same buffs. Which char will you roll? A class that can do nothing else but dps, or a class that can also heal and go melee if you ever want to. Soon noone would level a mage anymore! I mean whats the point of it if shammy has all and more?

it means that player X is a better player than player Y, so should be brought anyway regardless of what buffs they bring.
people also have to realize that added utility comes at the cost of lowered DPS, so if fire mages bring an extra buff, their personal DPS will be brought down slightly to compensate.

I'm not getting what you wanna say here. Why is X better player then Y? And why would you lower mage dps just couse it brings the same buff as 2 other classes?

[Swizzle]

What Blizz means is: Imagine Mage and Ele shammy do same dps, have same buffs. Which char will you roll? A class that can do nothing else but dps, or a class that can also heal and go melee if you ever want to. Soon noone would level a mage anymore! I mean whats the point of it if shammy has all and more?



I'm not getting what you wanna say here. Why is X better player then Y? And why would you lower mage dps just couse it brings the same buff as 2 other classes?

because an awesome elemental shaman will trounce a shitty mage. if the DPS gap swings wildly in the other direction, then it means that the mage has gotten better and improved warranting his spot in the raid.

lastly, blizzard has said that they balance utility and DPS around one another, meaning the more of one you bring, the less you bring of another. i can't look for the blue post, seeing as how it's from the early point of 3.3 where mut rogues were shitting on everyone, but it's their design philosophy, not mine.

[Gardod]

Ok, I havent taken 2k as a huge gap, but now I know what you mean.

As for utility vs. dps I dont think that will be the case in Cata. No point in making fire like demonology, just because they wanna make sure every raid has all buffs (at least thats how I understand these changes).

[DirewolfX]

Dont you wonder what that "!" infront of the = means?

Haha! You win this thread, sir.

Imagine a world where Shamans deal the same amount of damage as Mages.
Then imagine a world where mages can heal.

Screw healing. Frost = new tank class.

[Koumaru]

Screw healing. Frost = new tank class.

But then mages will be bitched at about parry gibbing until we're all forced to respec blood.

[scism]

Screw healing. Frost = new tank class.

Gief High King Mulguar V2 - most fun i've ever had as a mage

[Archimand]

ok since my 1st post in this thread seemed like some flame which is was not i was simply didnt liked the wording the op used
now to the topic
its still beta but since they moving alot of buffs across the board i will say all dps specs should be in range of each other on dps and be more like this players is good he top meters rather then this player is mage he top meters i have a mage alt and i know how it goes and while i can pass some of my guild mages on stand still fights im no where near as other class on movement fights and feel like im there just for buffs if its taken in cata then i wont see any reason for ppl to play shaman and thats why you see alot of angry shamans in this thread