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  1. #1

    Clipping diseases

    Hey guys,

    just have a quick question regarding rotation for unholy frost sub-spec.

    With the standard reapingless rotation I normally finish the rotation and can start a new one with applying diseases while the old diseases still have around 2 secs on target. Is it worth just waiting for the last tick or is it better to clip and start the rotation as soon as runes become available after the end of the cycle.

    Reason I am asking this is because for some reason I am not happy with the DPS I do. For example i cant seem to break 15k on Fester or Rotface, while when I check logs for DKs from similarly progressed guilds on my server 15k is not a lot. We are currently 11/12 ICC 25 heroic

    Would prefer not to link armory since I dont want my guild to think I am even a bigger nub than they think now

    However just to give you overview I have about 7 ilvl277 pieces hit capped, using heroic Cryptmaker as my weapon, 20 expertise, gemming and enchanting is in order. Trinkets are close to BiS with hcDV and DBW normal. Latency is fine too btw usually around 60-70 in raids.

    Stats unbuffed are: AP - 5980, haste - 220, ArP - 750(54%), 8,2& hit, 20 expertise, 30.5 crit



    So it cant be my gear and my rotation is close to perfect id say, I am prepotting speed potion at the beginning of the fight, using Gargoyle with procs up and hero etc.., only thing im unsure of is the question I raised earlier. However I doubt that either way will raise my dps to 16-17k that would probably be expected with my kind of gear and 30% ICC buff.

    I just want to improve but got stuck and cant think of what more I can do.

    Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Wow. No one responded.
    First i'd like to say, although it might not be, boasting or trollin'. Saying your not happy with 15k DPS is stupid. 15k is a fucking alot.
    DPS has a somewhat of a cap or a rate of increase. Gear upgrades in the early stages increases your DPS by a substantial amount and as you get into HM ICC the dps gap closes. Wether you clip disease or refresh them right as they end won't increase your DPS by a huge amount. The players doing more DPS is probably caused by consumables, racials, gemming or raid setup.
    Also Heroic Cryptmaker is a terrible UH weapon. Get a heroic byrn or SM and your set.
    Make sure you gem for Str or Str/Crit and get exp capped.

  3. #3
    if you really want to take it to the next level of dps as a dk than i'd suggest getting 2 Nighttimes(to start with, obviously upgrade these inside icc) and go frost.
    rase pointed a lot of stuff out too
    “He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”

    Quote Originally Posted by BatteredRose View Post
    They're greedy soulless monsters for not handing me everything for my 15 moneys a month!

  4. #4
    I asked this question of a good friend recently, and was told not to wait. Basically, the idea is that if you wait too long, you are wasting your rune resource. It would be like a rogue sitting at 100% energy for 2 seconds... not a HUGE deal, but it is still energy that they never get that could have gone into dps.

    Keep this in mind: Your dps will be higher, the shorter the fight. If your guild in general has lower dps than those other guilds the dk's you're comparing yourself to are in, then your dps by proxy will be lower because the fight duration is longer. For example, I recently raided with a guild that was pretty far back in progression... some of their DPS were doing like 5k. On my DK, i was doing about 11k on Saurfang/Fester. I started raiding with a new guild where they had about twice as much DPS, and suddenly i'm doing 13.5k on Saurfang and Fester. That's a difference of 2000+ dps just because the people i was raiding with were killing the boss faster, meaning a larger portion of my dps was taken while Bloodlust was up (and my CD's were stacked with it). The longer you fight, the smaller a portion of your dps is taken with Bloodlust and cooldowns, and the lower your overall dps will be.

    Also, technically, the hybrid gem of choice for UH/Frost would be Str/Haste, not Str/Crit. It will not be a huge difference, but it is still superior.

  5. #5
    Also, I might be wrong about this, but isn't the frost subspec meant to be for proc weapons? I thought the blood one was for non-proc ones.

  6. #6
    No, imo once your gear reaches a certain point it is just flat out better. They are supposedly comparable even at lower gear levels. Having been both sub frost and blood, I think frost just offers more unless you are threat capped, in which case... find a better tank.

  7. #7
    Yes, you want to clip your diseases.

    Not sure what your raid makeup is like, but you should consider switching to frost if you can.
    15k isn't all that great. I do 15k on Saurfang, Fester, and Rot as Frost and I don't have a single 277 other than my rep ring.
    Quote Originally Posted by kumduh View Post
    @Wingwraith: You can haz a point too, but only because you admit you're a tool!

  8. #8
    First of all, don't gem str/crit as suggested above. Gem str/haste as UH which I assume you already are. Getting a proc weapon would probably help, but I'd sim it first. The biggest suggestion I can give, which I know 99% of DKs don't know, is to turn 180 degrees away from the boss before you cast gargoyle. A gargoyle has a melée attack that he will use until he gets into position that does substantially less damage than his casted attack. A gargoyle summons 5 yards in front of the caster (right in gargoyle melée range of the boss). Flipping backward will cause the gargoyle to only cast and never melée. Try it. I don't have parses to say any specific numbers of how much of a dps increase it is, but I guarantee it will help. Because as said before, clipping your diseases is usually good. If you see them about to fall off, and you haven't used up the 2 second window on your runes, then definitely wait for them to fall off before refreshing. Also, 15k is not terrible for not having shadowmourne. Don't get bummed by damn fury warriors and fire mages doing 20k plus. It's just not in the cards for us.

    Edit: ALSO getting exp capped is NOT mandatory for unholy. Because of the empty GCDs in your rotation, you shouldn't need to be exp capped at the expense of other stats. Ignore most of the posters on this thread.
    Last edited by Ripkit; 2010-07-29 at 03:43 PM.

  9. #9
    Lol at "ignore most of the posters in this thread" >.>

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripkit View Post
    First of all, don't gem str/crit as suggested above. Gem str/haste as UH which I assume you already are. Getting a proc weapon would probably help, but I'd sim it first. The biggest suggestion I can give, which I know 99% of DKs don't know, is to turn 180 degrees away from the boss before you cast gargoyle. A gargoyle has a melée attack that he will use until he gets into position that does substantially less damage than his casted attack. A gargoyle summons 5 yards in front of the caster (right in gargoyle melée range of the boss). Flipping backward will cause the gargoyle to only cast and never melée. Try it. I don't have parses to say any specific numbers of how much of a dps increase it is, but I guarantee it will help. Because as said before, clipping your diseases is usually good. If you see them about to fall off, and you haven't used up the 2 second window on your runes, then definitely wait for them to fall off before refreshing. Also, 15k is not terrible for not having shadowmourne. Don't get bummed by damn fury warriors and fire mages doing 20k plus. It's just not in the cards for us.

    Edit: ALSO getting exp capped is NOT mandatory for unholy. Because of the empty GCDs in your rotation, you shouldn't need to be exp capped at the expense of other stats. Ignore most of the posters on this thread.
    This. Basically everything else in this thread is completely garbage advice as per usual from the MMO DK boards.

    I can also guarantee these DKs you see doing over 18k have Shadowmourne. Unholy without SM is one of the worst specs in terms of single target DPS. If you are the only Unholy DK then remember EP is invaluable and you are contributing a huge amount by just staying alive and providing that buff.

  11. #11
    u can also swap the order u apply the diseases

    example:
    if u start with IT PS (range attack first, but tho order isn't important here), when u need to reapply do PS-IT.
    u will clipp the PS disease but not the IT disease.

    this is not correct all the times, but u won't loose anything doing this, and u can gaind dps if 1 disease doesn't clipp

  12. #12
    care to enlighten me by letting me know which part of my post(s) were garbage? Pretty sure everything i said was dead-on accurate.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Fission View Post
    care to enlighten me by letting me know which part of my post(s) were garbage? Pretty sure everything i said was dead-on accurate.
    'Basically everything.' I missed your post but you were not the target of my post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darthwader View Post
    u can also swap the order u apply the diseases

    example:
    if u start with IT PS (range attack first, but tho order isn't important here), when u need to reapply do PS-IT.
    u will clipp the PS disease but not the IT disease.

    this is not correct all the times, but u won't loose anything doing this, and u can gaind dps if 1 disease doesn't clipp
    This used to be true but there is absolutely no recent evidence that suggests it is a DPS increase to let the haste buff from IT fall off.

  14. #14
    Oh, I have an idea. Would you mind posting a WorldofLogs report of a festergut kill Klejci? If your guild uses it, that is. Or perhaps download the client yourself. It'd allow us to take a more in depth view at the damage discrepancies between your attacks/rotation and those of higher DPS death knights.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripkit View Post
    Oh, I have an idea. Would you mind posting a WorldofLogs report of a festergut kill Klejci? If your guild uses it, that is. Or perhaps download the client yourself. It'd allow us to take a more in depth view at the damage discrepancies between your attacks/rotation and those of higher DPS death knights.
    Oh I have an idea... why don't you try reading the OP's post again and this time completely...

    "Would prefer not to link armory since I dont want my guild to think I am even a bigger nub than they think now"

    I'm pretty sure since he wants to remain anonymous, posting a WOL is out of the question.
    Quote Originally Posted by kumduh View Post
    @Wingwraith: You can haz a point too, but only because you admit you're a tool!

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Scudamore View Post
    'Basically everything.' I missed your post but you were not the target of my post.



    This used to be true but there is absolutely no recent evidence that suggests it is a DPS increase to let the haste buff from IT fall off.
    I never really thought about it, but wouldn't clipping Blood Plague insure your 10% buff remained up and also allow an extra tick of Frost Fever, which is stronger than Blood Plague? (GoIT)

    [11:50:45] Earthmender Duarn says: Shamanistic healing is a complex art. You can't just chain heal all day.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Wingwraith View Post
    Oh I have an idea... why don't you try reading the OP's post again and this time completely...

    "Would prefer not to link armory since I dont want my guild to think I am even a bigger nub than they think now"

    I'm pretty sure since he wants to remain anonymous, posting a WOL is out of the question.
    Did something change or can you not still make a report anonymous? As is all the names in it get changed. Maybe I'm getting confused with WMO because I know I've done that before on one of those sites.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Wingwraith View Post
    Oh I have an idea... why don't you try reading the OP's post again and this time completely...

    "Would prefer not to link armory since I dont want my guild to think I am even a bigger nub than they think now"

    I'm pretty sure since he wants to remain anonymous, posting a WOL is out of the question.
    Wow that was a pretty hostile response to an innocent suggestion. Personally, I think that his guild should be happy he's seeking advice to better his dps. And, considering a WOL report is the only way to do that, I don't think it's unreasonable. I think you mistook my phrase "oh, I have an idea" as if said in a condescending tone, which I did not mean to convey. I was actually just thinking aloud, if you will. :P but I can see where the confusion was due to my lack of clarity.

    Anyway, yeah a WOL would help if you don't mind breaking anonymity. Honestly though you won't do a ton more than that without smourne and full 277.

  19. #19
    Since the OP has yet to respond, I doubt I will see an answer but OP, what is your raid comp?

    It's possible you are just caster heavy and are missing some crucial raid buff.

    [11:50:45] Earthmender Duarn says: Shamanistic healing is a complex art. You can't just chain heal all day.

  20. #20
    14-15K is fine for your gear. Really.

    As for your question, you should get an addon to moniter DoT ticks. This will allow you to disease twist - IE, start the fight with IT PS then your next rotation you will do PS IT. I believe potlol showed a very good description of disease twisting. Assuming you have another DK in the raid, you will never lose the 10% damage from Rage of Rivendare.

    Don't expect to do much more then 15K unless your fight duration is around 2 minutes due to your raiddps being high (like most top parses)
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