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  1. #21
    Stood in the Fire
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    Wow... Someone asking for Brez and Innervate to be removed. Just when you think the game's playerbase couldn't get any worse.

    Evidently someone doesn't PvP for one. Innervate is the only reason Feral Druids do not OOM in any arena match that lasts more than 5 minutes.

    Next, someone asking for the removal of Brez -- The one thing that has helped all my previous guilds prevent countless wipes and a clutch method for healers going OOM then sacrificing themselves so I can BR them as a "improvised mana potion". This is ridiculous.

    Granted: 1) Healers do not OOM in WoW now, it's easy mode to heal, just as it is easy mode to do anything in this game now & 2) People rarely die now because the game is easy mode, so battle rez isn't all that important. So I can understand a little bit of why you would find it useless.

    However, stating that you are so lazy & care too much about DPS to rez someone... That's just sad. Roll a pure DPS class that does more DPS if all you care about is damage. Feral Druids are for people that love getting Predatory Strike instant cast Regrowths, Battle Rez, Cyclones, etc. etc. to provide additional utility to people. Hell, I was doing Halls of Reflection the other day in a Heroic with a Priest that had just hit the GS requirement & had pretty bad gear compared to most people. Both the tank and him were surprised with how well we did & it's because I was Cycloning every other finisher reducing incoming damage dramatically. I even handled the Poison dispels so that the Priest didn't waste GCDs that could otherwise be going to the tank.

    Utility abilities like Battle Rez and Innervate should be the reason you play a Druid over another damage class. Not just because you like the way they deal damage. If you like just dealing damage, an Assassination Rogue is basically a mirrored version of the Feral Druid only there's less things to worry about... Which seems like it would be right up someone's alley that doesn't like running to Battle Rez someone.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    Just wanted to touch on this a bit before I start the coffee brewing.

    There is a reason for the design, and it's two-fold.

    1.) Blizz wants the first two tiers in the talent trees to be useful for sub-specing (talking in general). For druids, moonkins/ferals dip into resto. Now, it would be easy to make more interesting semi-passive talents for moonkins in the resto tree since they're both casters, but the trouble comes with feral. Blessing of the Grove increases damage/healing, Furor increases our resources, so the only thing left we all share is the ability to shapeshift (hence Natural Shapeshifter). It's also a talent that takes little effort to balance between specs.

    2.) Blizz wants to avoid bears and kittens to nab the exact same talent tree (part of the separation of roles in one spec). As a kitty, you'd probably end up taking 2/2 Blessing of the Grove and 3/3 Furor for those times when you have to shapeshift and don't want to end up with zero energy... which leaves them needing to blow 4 points extra in the resto talent tree to get Master Shapeshifter to increase their damage output. For bears, I see something more along the lines of 3/3 NSS, 2/3 Furor, 3/3 Perseverance and 1/1 MSS. Okay, what does this accomplish? In the efforts of a kitty to maximize damage and a bear to maximize survivability/threat, Blizz has does something rather neat by funneling points into a shared utility talent in order to keep kittens from getting tank talents and bears getting kitty talents elsewhere in the feral tree. Long story short, it's designed as is to prevent a kitty/bear hybrid spec that can do everything, and each talent tree iteration improves on this.

    Now, if you're asking me if I like the values currently in place, I'd say no. With how low the shapeshifting costs currently are, the talent does become lackluster (however numbers like these are usually changed last since they don't impact gameplay too much). On the other hand, MSS still seems almost too weak to the point where bears and kittens won't want to pick it up. As it stands, yes, the 4 points seem like a waste currently, but I have provided you with the reasons for their design. I can almost guarantee that the design will stay the same, even if the individual talents and/or values do not remain. If anything, Blizz would probably adjust MSS to be more appealing in some way so the points invested make NSS a nice bonus at the end of your 3-point investment.

    Then maybe the problem with natural shapeshifter is that, except for pvp, raiding druids don't change forms that often. Boomkins currently change out of boomkin form to battle rez and to pop tranquility in rare situations. Ferals use it to innervate, battle rez and tanq aswell. Restos never leave tree unless they are nuking. All of these situations don't require a 30% mana reduction in shifting. Its a lame talent without much of a point or effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cortano View Post
    It is too powerful not to use; not using them: not a real option.



    You have a number of reasons.

    Obviously, class balance is going to be a big one. Battle Rez is too good an ability. You can rez a healer and save a raid. You can rez an off-tank to prevent a MT from gettign one-shotted. You can add a couple hundred thousand or a million damage with a single global cooldown. Its a powerful ability, one that can change the outcome of a fight.

    An ability that powerful has trade-offs. Druids shouldn't be as strong as tanks, do as much DPS, be as good as healers if we have some "critical" buff we alone can bring. That was OK when all classes had some unique defining buff that only they could bring and guaranteed that all raids had at least one of each class. The game has changed.

    Second, you have playstyle. Some abilities are not fun or interesting to use, no matter how powerful they were. Running around to rez someone might be effective, but its the kind of thing that I would just as soon someone else had to do.

    Third, you have class "feel". Ferals are about teeth and claws. Ripping apart their enemies. Natural selection. Survival of the fittest. The great wheel of life. Brez doesn't really "feel" like a feral ability. A priest or paladin thing maybe... but not a druid. If you reincarnated as some animal form, more like the DK ghoul thing, that might 'fit' the class better.



    Please on the behalf of other druids, please stop asking for bad abilities to remain just because it keeps the class overpowered.
    This is so bad i have to comment. Your think battle rez is overpowered because it deals millions of damage in 1 global? Really? So blessing of might is over powered because it increases my damage by 10% and 10% of a million is 100k but that is on all the physical dps? Really?

    Is holy light overpowered because it saved a dps and now he can keep doing damage? Are you hearing how bad this is? Battle Rez is an ability with a cooldown that is there to correct for a mistake. We have healers who correct for everyones mistakes constantly as people take ticks of fire damage or other avoidable sources all the time. REMOVE HEALS PLEASE!!!!!!!

    /end sarcasm

  3. #23
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    Please keep the discussion civil. We can discuss ideas without insulting other players.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine View Post
    Please keep the discussion civil. We can discuss ideas without insulting other players.
    Treehugger! lol j/k

  5. #25
    First:
    Faerie Fire lasts for 5 mins in the caster mana costing form compared to the 30 secs of the feral free form. Unless this is a bug it should be made consistent one way or another. If not made consistant I can see ferals shifting to caster form every 6 secs in order to get faerie fire stacked. The trade off being not re applying it every 30 secs but applying it every 5 mins.

    Second:
    This talent shows that blizzard wants ferals to be able to apply the stack easier but the ability shows they want us to use it more. This is inconsistent logic unless they wish for us to just push the button more which, quite frankly, is boring as it deals no damage.
    !!!!!!!!!!quote first post!!!!!!!!!!!


    I would believe that talent will be used once in a while for keeping faerie fire up and also for what blizzard is trying to do with all dps specs HEAL THEMSELVES TO SAVE HEALERS MANA just put up a free regrowth and you are fit to continue as before losing minor dps saving healers the mana for healing you.

  6. #26
    Saur- Got me on this one, cant b rez (Never heard of rune of blood)?
    BQ- MT never, OT at anytime. (Never heard of the airphase?
    Quote Originally Posted by Junlee View Post
    You can't even post in the proper forum. If Blizzard employees functioned as you do, your character would queue up for a BG and end up in Molten Core.

  7. #27
    @OP about BR/Innervate: /Agree. Been thinking about this lately myself.
    It does seem somewhat odd that feral is the only tank that pays a *huge* tank tax compared to the others: dropping out of form drops your armor by a huge amount, you lose ~40% of your stamina, and worst of all: you lose your crit immunity, something the other 3 tanks classes don't have to deal with (yay @ getting oneshot crit by LK when trying to BR the OT).
    Put slightly differently: if paladin (as the other caster-capable tank) could BR, they wouldn't suffer any of those losses while tossing out their BR (only suffering the lack of avoidance that any caster gets when being melee'd while casting).
    Additionally, I'd like to see us able to use our dispel/decurse too (remember: pala is capable of using *any* of his abilities while tanking), there's already precedences ingame for dispels allowed for specs blocked out of certain schools (boomkin, spriest).
    This could tie in with some utility talent, or baked into some feral bear talent (none of this is relevant to cats).

    Nobody is forcing you to use those abilities even if you can use them... but taking a *huge* tax on daring to do them when others don't have any such grievances is a bit of an overkill.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by killarth View Post
    My final issue is one that has been a problem for awhile now. Bear druids lose their utility of battle rezzing and innervating others while they are tanking. Those are 2 key class spells that should be modified so bears can use them.

    I would suggest that an effect is placed deep in the feral tree that allows bear druids to cast innervate and their battle rez while in bear form with battle rez being instant cast and not taking them out of bear form. The only argument is that bears aren’t always tanking, problem is there are plenty of encounters already ingame that the tank is busy 100% of the time and cannot get a battle rez off at all.

    I would also suggest the ranged be increased to 40 or 50 yards with that talent (while the druid is in bear form) as a bear druid can’t wander around trying to find a corpse with professor patricide smacking him from behind.
    Yu have obviously never used enrage + barkskin to get off a quick BR while still tanking then. It's fine how it is now, be intuitive with yur abilities. It is small things like this that seperate the good players from the great players. Instead of asking for an ability to innervate or BR while in bear form, find a way to do it without needing that crutch. Have a ret paladin run far away and taunt the boss while yu BR and innervate, then taunt it back off him before he gets hit. There are many possilbities and no need to hand out more crutches.
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  9. #29
    This is so bad i have to comment. Your think battle rez is overpowered because it deals millions of damage in 1 global? Really?
    Your couple thousand damage done you loose pales in comparison to the couple hundread to million damage done the person you are b-rezzing will do once they are back in the game or not to mention if its a healer your b rez-innervate could very well be the difference between a wipe or a boss kill.
    Reading, the lost art.

  10. #30
    I'm not worried at all for ferals in cata. They're not going to screw it up, they know what we like and they're keeping our core talents, just tweaking and adding new things. I honestly don't think they're going to play much more different then they do now.

  11. #31
    Wow. Just wow. I can't make stupid people into non-stupid people, but please realize that a Feral druid isn't different from a Restoration or Balance druid. They are all 3 DRUIDS. They share base line powers. They are all the same class. A spec is simply a specialization. Balance concentrates on making their nature and arcane spells more powerful, Feral on their shape shifting forms, and Restoration on their healing spells. All by personal choice.
    There is nothing really druidical about battle rezzing. It doesn't fit ANY of the druid specs particularly well. You don't look at "Battle Rez" and think "oh, that has to be a druid ability because they are the church militant and mixing divine intervention with combat is what defines the feel of their class."

    Its an ability that doesn't have any real attachment to druids, its just something we have because Blizzard wanted to differentiate druids and priests, and then changed their mind on that. Why should a feral druid be better at resurrecting people than a holy priest?

    From a feral point of view: it has even less relevance. Its not an ability like shred, where making it non-positional would result in druids playing totally differently. If ferals/balance lost the ability, and instead it was a talented ability given to all healers... it wouldn't really change our game experience at all.

    ---------- Post added 2010-07-31 at 08:24 AM ----------

    On Natural Shape Shifter

    Its a lame talent without much of a point or effect.
    That's the truth. I would love to see the binned or at a minumum converted into MSS.

    Master Shape Shifter (3 levels)
    Reduces the mana costs of shifting by 33/66/100%
    Bear: increases physical damage by 1/2/3%
    Cat: increases critical strike rating by 1/2/3%
    Boomkin: increases spell damage by 1/2/3%
    Human/Tree: increases healing by 1/2/3%

  12. #32
    Hmm, a lot of things what you´re concerned about are already in the game, and those are like, awsome abilities. I sure hope they don´t make the class easier to play with. I really like the diversity of the feral druid (kitty ofc).

    As for the other concerns, I think you shouldn't pay too much attention to the talents until you actually get to try them out. I'm sure they will change alot until release.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by killarth View Post
    Then maybe the problem with natural shapeshifter is that, except for pvp, raiding druids don't change forms that often. Boomkins currently change out of boomkin form to battle rez and to pop tranquility in rare situations. Ferals use it to innervate, battle rez and tanq aswell. Restos never leave tree unless they are nuking. All of these situations don't require a 30% mana reduction in shifting. Its a lame talent without much of a point or effect.
    That's exactly why I think Blizz will adjust it somehow... forcing utility is one thing, forcing 3 points worth of near zero-use utility is quite another. It's one of those "great idea, bad execution" moments where the idea is to force people down a talent line to keep roles from overlapping, but there's no real incentive to even go down that talent line.

    On a semi-side note... just read the blue post concerning warriors and the recent changes to their abilities: "At the moment we are thinking of nerfing any of the really passive AEs, including Swipe, Death and Decay, Damage Shield and Consecrate." ...anyone else choke and fall over laughing when you see the phrase "passive AE's" associated with Swipe?
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  14. #34
    "Currently we are looking really hard at AE damage abilities by all tanks."

    God you had me really scared there for a second. I thought they were talking about cat-swipe. It's fine by me if they nerf the dmg, just increase the threat generation in proportion and it'll be fine. It's kinda odd really that I as a tank (in dps gear ofc) can pull 5-6k on trash in heroics.

  15. #35
    Overall, I am fairly happy with the way things are looking; FF back at no rage and 3 stacks is really an improvement over the earlier version, the self-heal on LotP is back, and mangle is once again a useful ability.

    I'd like to see a proper rotation, rather than just playing whack-a-mole with abilities as they come off of cooldown and the value/role of pulverize is still really unclear to me. I am curious what they are going to do with the AoE abilities... sort of hoping for a all of the AoE to be tuned down dramatically: I liked BC dungeon tanking where you really had to work for aggro, just didn't like paladins being better than druids ;-)

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by gollie View Post
    "Currently we are looking really hard at AE damage abilities by all tanks."

    God you had me really scared there for a second. I thought they were talking about cat-swipe. It's fine by me if they nerf the dmg, just increase the threat generation in proportion and it'll be fine. It's kinda odd really that I as a tank (in dps gear ofc) can pull 5-6k on trash in heroics.
    Haha, my original Blizz quote was poking fun at them stating Bear Swipe (aka, the GCD spamming "omg, that key died again from smashing it so hard for hours" ability) was grouped with other tank AEs described as "passive" when it's the most non-passive ability ever. If they adjust Thorns to be more in line with Damage Shield (and there have been hints that they're trying to redesign Thorns to be more useful), I'll start thinking druids have a passive AE threat spell.

    I honestly don't mind if they tone down the damage of our AoE threat abilities, as long as the ability to generate decent threat and their scaling remains good. Heroics as they are now are stilted in favor of tanks because a.) the tanks usually are the first ones getting a few GCDs off before the DPS touch the mobs, and b.) heroic mob health is so low that DPS don't have time to get off full rotations or get in a lot of AoE time... perhaps also c.) many people just aren't that good at maximizing their DPS for short/low HP trash pulls, or for that matter DPSing period. I normally destroy the DPS in heroics unless it's a cleave class with comparable gear to mine or someone with inferior gear but great play ability and class knowledge.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  17. #37
    I guess it is too early to be worried about the Feral Tree itself, but I am inclined to share my thoughts about their 'philosophy' with the Feral Tree so far. I quite like it. I think Cat spec and Bear spec look very different from one another. A hybrid spec, but sub-optimal, is possible. A normal Cat DPS spec can include some PvP talents and there is the possibility of having a dedicated PvP spec that would not lose so much in the PvE side. I think it is fine.

    As for the Cat DPS, they seem to have achieved what they wanted. SR and Rake last longer, so it should be easier to keep stuff up, and Ferocious Bite looks like it is going to be really usable for those without heavy crit percentages. It is nice. ArPen is finally going away (it was a very boring stat, IMO) and with more Agility and Haste, the gameplay is looking good. I cannot wait to see how it goes when all is fixed.

    My only real concern so far is about tanking multiple mobs. They new solutions are not working and Swipe looks so useless at the moment. I was never a huge fan of Lacerate, and I am not sure it should go back to being important. Well, as important as it was in TBC, at least. Of all the tanks right now, Druids seem to be last ones on developers 'to do' list.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Cortano View Post
    Reading, the lost art.
    Fine, i'll elaborate. Druids should not and ARE NOT balanece around battle rez in terms of their tanking dpsing or healing ability because its a cooldown and the reality of saving someone a second after a heal WOULD HAVE landed and a second BEFORE a heal would have is the only real difference with any regular heal being the first one.

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