another xpack of subspeccing sub?

[Lemons]

It seems like with both Elusiveness and Dirty Tricks reachable in sub we're probably going end up having to throw at least 9 points in sub for pvp. Honestly if Blizz wants to get rid of mandatory talents they should just ditch these two and roll them into their respective abilities, because I can't see anything from combat or assassination competing with them.

[celinamuna]

It seems like with both Elusiveness and Dirty Tricks reachable in sub we're probably going end up having to throw at least 9 points in sub for pvp. Honestly if Blizz wants to get rid of mandatory talents they should just ditch these two and roll them into their respective abilities, because I can't see anything from combat or assassination competing with them.

i'm not really seeing the pve benefit of having dirty tricks as combat/muti and if anything, i'd rather spend those 2 points in precision (as muti) or lethality/imp evis as combat

[Dace]

i'm not really seeing the pve benefit of having dirty tricks as combat/muti and if anything, i'd rather spend those 2 points in precision (as muti) or lethality/imp evis as combat

I'm pretty sure he was talking about PvP.

[celinamuna]

Well, pvp is different, and i really don't think that Sub's pvp-bility should be nerfed, as at this point it's the only thing it has

[Sarcasm]

So you want things to change for the sake of being different?

Some good design decisions right there.

[celinamuna]

So you want things to change for the sake of being different?

Some good design decisions right there.

I'd say that it does not really matter what happens, but what imo need to happen, is for all trees to be at about the same lvl, since we all (don't even argue about it) that sub will never be at combat/muti lvl, just because of it's player related utility, then it at least should be the best in pvp. Otherwise we get the same problem we've been having with hybrids, why go X, when you can go Y, which has better Z and same W.

And i'd say that if they can bake in dirty tricks into rogues for all specs and replace it with a better talent, that would be a lot better, because :
1) Supposedly cc's are coming back --> it would be very good to actually have a passive buff to the only raid cc we got (remember the times when we had to spec into sap so we wouldn't get out of steal ? .... that was fun............ NOT)
2) The talent doesn't seem that interesting or game breaking for it cause a massive (usual) amount of QQ, that rogue's buffs receive
3) It can be one of those energy / bleed combo point generator talent's ppl been talking about, plus it's low enough for beginners to learn how to use it. (possibly same reason revealing strike is in the middle tree so that you have plenty of time before raids to practice using it, yet not too early for new players to be overwhelmed with a massive amount of abilities that they have to use)

[Neichus]

PvP specs are ridiculously difficult to make equal. Traditionally only one spec at a time has been viable for PvP as Rogues. If Blizzard can make both all three Rogue specs viable in PvP simultaneously at the cost of forcing them to always sub-spec into Subtlety I think that's a worthwhile trade. I figure it's more fun to be able to chose a whole new tree than it is to decide where my last few points go.

[aeir]

Haven't you heard? Cata combat rogues are the new warriors.

[Regnak]

it's looking like it's going to be an xpack of completely speccing sub, as we still have no reliable gap closers and remain pretty cooldown dependant, with sub still having prep.

[Deleted]

prep also. muti wont be the same without it

[Creed]

Alternative: Don't get those points. Would it be a hindrance, yes. would you have more points to place where you like? Yes.

Also, I currently do and still will in cata play Sub. Its not the best, but them making prep sub-only is finally a godsend.
(Aside from the tree having a few completely crap talents and a few good ones being a bit over budgeted for their point allocations.)

[Trull]

I believe that preparation needs to be ditched, cooldowns need to be lowered, elusiveness would be baselined in that last suggestion, and dirty tricks should just be how sap/blind are. You cannot tell me that this would nerf subtlety considering they would get new talents in the place of prep/dirty/elus and keep the advantages that the talents would have given them in the first place. It does however give more flexibility for assassination and combat concerning pvp without hurting sub or pve in any way. I would call that having your cake and eating it too. The real thing they need to do is tweak and find a sweet spot for cooldowns on abilities, preparation is holding our class back the same way that soul link is hurting warlocks. I would mention cold snap as well but with frostbite being removed and every tree for mages having new viable cc(ontop of constantly reliable and spammable cc such as polymorph) they are in a considerably better position. I do understand that for pvp there generally will be a more optimal subspec and if they managed to pack all the goodies 10 points into subtlety I would just learn to deal with it... but with their new design philosophy I just honestly believe they'll figure out a solution here that works. I just don't think that asking to drop 10 points in the secondary tree of your choice without being completely gimp should be a utopian thought, it's kind of the point of the talent tree redesign in the first place. Does anyone agree?

[Neichus]

Oop, looks like I was dead wrong:

"We're going to make Dirty Tricks baseline." - GC

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/26399...-speccing-sub/

[darkriver41]

Dirty Tricks is a boring talent anywa-- Oh, good. GC notices this as well.

[celinamuna]

And i'd say that if they can bake in dirty tricks into rogues for all specs

+1 internetz for me

[K4ge]

it's looking like it's going to be an xpack of completely speccing sub, as we still have no reliable gap closers and remain pretty cooldown dependant, with sub still having prep.

sub sucks. vendetta with pve gear is baws

[shaddrak]

My gnome will kill any other rogue in sub spec, shhh he's sleeping

[DiscostewSM]

So glad they are making Dirty Tricks baseline. I remember the days when rogues were needed for sapping in UBRS and required the talent that let them stay in stealth, because back then, baseline Sap would take you out of it. The thing about the talent though is that it gave only a 90% chance to stay in stealth, which meant you'd die 10% of the time if your tanks weren't fast enough to pull after, or you didn't vanish quick enough (which, mind you, actually worked back then).