"Hybrid" Tax Reduction?

[msdos]

if you look at the stats closely, yes, shamans are consistently bad on most of the fights. that's what people are trying to get across when they say that "shaman DPS is way too low". (and Balance, before one of the last content patches.) they aren't trying to say, "shaman DPS is the worst, period"

keep in mind that Elemental is the only caster with no spirit conversion talent, on top of bad scaling.

it's not a tax, it's useless stats, bad gear, abysmal scaling and punishing mobility.

i would agree that getting BM, Frost and Subtlety in the mix is a bigger priority than Elemental, at this point, seeing as how a pure can't just switch roles, they're basically shunned away from an entire tree (especially if they don't PVP), which is not good game design.

[Timberwolfe]

There is a solid hybrid tax in place.

How much do is cost in time and Gold to maintain 2 seperate spec?

ALOT.

Two sets of gear for current content will take close to twice as much time to round up as a pure dps class will need to spend.

Two sets of gear for current content will take twice as much gold to gem and enchant.

With the exceptions of complete morons,(moron = looking at meters to the extent that the nice orange colour under their feet is completely un-noticed) every one playing a pure or hybrid is doing so because they like the play styles of different classes and/or specs. i.e. wether a % tax is around or not, all classes will be played.

Due to the cost of having more than one spec for a hybrid, I do not see the point in us/them (dependant on which of my 80's) getting further penalized.

[msdos]

There is a solid hybrid tax in place.

How much do is cost in time and Gold to maintain 2 seperate spec?

ALOT.

Two sets of gear for current content will take close to twice as much time to round up as a pure dps class will need to spend.

Two sets of gear for current content will take twice as much gold to gem and enchant.

this is smokey, because does the benefit of being able to switch your role out-weigh the downside of having to spend more time and gold on the other set? most, if not all of the time, i'm getting my off-spec gear at the same time as my mainspec gear.
whether or not it's more of a benefit, we're still paying extra. this pretty much ties in with the argument, "well, switching roles isn't as simple as everyone is saying it is, there's still a whole different set to perfect"

now granted, in Cata, this is going to change a lot, since 10s and 25s will have the same lock-out, but which way the wind is going to blow, it's just too early to tell.

it's ironic how hypocritical all of this is: at one side people are going, "why bring an Elemental when you can just bring a Mage?" then on the other side, Blizzard is saying, "why have a raid with anything but shamans and druids?"

i dunno, maybe because people play other stuff? your guild has variety? your friend plays Elemental? you're not critical of DPS? you don't know that many exceptional shamans? i can think of a thousand answers to those questions.

[Seriss]

Well, I don't actively play a dps spec anymore, so there you go. ^^
But I'm not blind to the dps side of things. And even when it comes to healing, I'm prone to whining about the lack of spirit link and how we've been cheated at the beginning of WotLK when raids sat their entire bunch of shamans except for the obligatory bloodlust/heroism b*tch. Healers were sat especially... you know, the ones where you had grabbed yourself 4-5 of because of Sunwell. Come Ulduar, resto schamis were pretty much erased - at least in my ex-raid and generally on my ex-server back then. They quit, they rerolled... some specced enhance or elemental - but still suffer from hybrid tax. They had to deal with it.

And we're all still dealing with it now, on a daily basis. No matter what the spec.

Thing is though... hybrid tax seems to be a term exclusively aimed at the shaman class. Because we bring so many buffs for a 25 man raid! Buffs that are brought or will be brought by other classes in Cataclysm. Classes that do massive dps. Why bring a shaman to a 25 man raid when you can cover it all by bringing other classes that bring 100% of dps when shaman is only allowed to bring 90-95%? Because you like the player so much? Seriously, that's now how raids work. You don't bring someone because you like the player. You bring them because they do massive amounts of PEWPEW. And when you have people who are all playing on a very high skill level, the shaman is the first who drops to the low ranks of dps just above the tank.

Look at druids and paladins first thing. Do you get the feeling that there is anything along the lines of a hybrid tax involved there? And they're the ones you can relate the most to the versatility of a shaman, spec-wise. Some say moonkin isn't so great at dps, I'll grant you that. Let's relate that one to elemental. Then go ahead and compare feral to enhance... Nuff said. Paladin... rets are just insane.

Look at warrior, priest, DK. Not quite as versatile but still I see no hybrid tax in their dps. On the contrary. On my shadow priest I destroy the damagemeters, and it's only an alt that I don't really play all that well.

Hybrid tax is something for shamans and moonkins. Everyone else isn't a true hybrid it seems.

[Jerion]

Encounter mechanics affect dps a whole ton more than a "hybrid tax."

What screws you guys is a lust/hero tax.

[Omanley]

Encounter mechanics affect dps a whole ton more than a "hybrid tax."

What screws you guys is a lust/hero tax.

and the totem tax, and the "once had imba wf tax", the "you have most buffs" tax, ofc the hybrid tax and overall we can call it the shaman tax.

[TheTieThatBinds]

As I said in a previous post, blues have already said they are removing the "Hybrid Tax" and considering DPS, DPS, regardless whether they're hybrid or not since so many classes can bring the same utility via buffs.

You guys seem to keep arguing about the hybrid tax. Its implemented on live servers but, if you believe the blues, its not in Cataclysm.

Ill go ahead and believe them, but u guys can choose for yourselves.

[Xeraluin]

well shamans are not as "hybridic"(tm) as paladins or druids, and with the specialization system i think all the hybrid taxes will be removed or wiped off the board

[Foxhoundn]

As I said in a previous post, blues have already said they are removing the "Hybrid Tax" and considering DPS, DPS, regardless whether they're hybrid or not since so many classes can bring the same utility via buffs.

You guys seem to keep arguing about the hybrid tax. Its implemented on live servers but, if you believe the blues, its not in Cataclysm.

Ill go ahead and believe them, but u guys can choose for yourselves.

Might bother linking the post?

[kooz]

pures probably should have higher possible damage cap, but more complex gameplay/priorities compared to hybrids to reach it, similar to what kitties now have.

[Mixelphlick]

Seriously i feel like people were finally getting it late last night then this tide of crap swept in this morning. Did all of you people posting recently even read the last few pages?

@msdos You mention that you were really only referring to shaman being behind and that you used hybrid tax as a euphemism. Thats an awful use of the word. If I owned a hotel and blamed all my problems on the sales tax as a euphemism for the hospitality tax does that somehow make the use of the term right? No i just look like an idiot. If your talking about shaman scaling issues and balance issues talk about them. If you want to talk about problems balancing rage amplification in fury warriors talk about that, if you want to talk about how the JOHN FUCKING MADDEN crazyness with kitties makes blizzard let them do high end damage talk about that but don't try and hide it all under one big umbrella when each issue in that pile has different reasoning, different sources, different fixes, and different stances with blizzard. There is hardly any definable hybrid tax visible right now, there is however immense problems with shaman scaling. But with the addition of unleash weapon enchant as and critting dots, crit will matter much more and with feedback your haste scaling will increase slightly as the faster you cast spells the more often you get your insta crit talent. Both of those things blizzard is doing to fix your scaling and strangely they have nothing to do with some imaginary just for shamans persecution.

[serif]

Yes there is a hybrid tax, but why if i check : http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...n_Citadel/dps/

There is a fkin fury warriors, ret paladins, shadow priests, kitties in top 10 fights doing fkin incredible dps? Where is the hybrid tax blizz speaks about? It looks like it applies only to shamans.

I've been calling it the shaman tax for a while now.

but whatever. hopefully blizzard at least notices the QQ and takes a look at it. if they decide not to do anything then se la vie... i'll just question their intentions and move along.

---------- Post added 2010-08-03 at 08:52 PM ----------

As I said in a previous post, blues have already said they are removing the "Hybrid Tax" and considering DPS, DPS, regardless whether they're hybrid or not since so many classes can bring the same utility via buffs.

I don't think that's correct... but feel free to prove me wrong with a link to a blue post.

[msdos]

@msdos You mention that you were really only referring to shaman being behind and that you used hybrid tax as a euphemism. Thats an awful use of the word. If I owned a hotel and blamed all my problems on the sales tax as a euphemism for the hospitality tax does that somehow make the use of the term right? No i just look like an idiot. If your talking about shaman scaling issues and balance issues talk about them. If you want to talk about problems balancing rage amplification in fury warriors talk about that, if you want to talk about how the JOHN FUCKING MADDEN crazyness with kitties makes blizzard let them do high end damage talk about that but don't try and hide it all under one big umbrella when each issue in that pile has different reasoning, different sources, different fixes, and different stances with blizzard. There is hardly any definable hybrid tax visible right now, there is however immense problems with shaman scaling. But with the addition of unleash weapon enchant as and critting dots, crit will matter much more and with feedback your haste scaling will increase slightly as the faster you cast spells the more often you get your insta crit talent. Both of those things blizzard is doing to fix your scaling and strangely they have nothing to do with some imaginary just for shamans persecution.

am i in trouble or something? i wasn't purposely trying to put everything under "one big umbrella". Hybrid tax is the known maxim, wtf else should i call it that doesn't just sound like QQ?

i already broke out their issues in one post and my stance on the subject and the purpose of this poll, i urge you to read that post - page 5.

[bloodhaven]

Issues of Hybrid vs. Pure aside, i think what irks a lot of enhancement shaman, is simply the fact that even in the hands of the very best members of our class, played to absolute perfection, the enhancement spec is not rewarded for the complexity involved with playing it.

To avoid inevitable raging:
- i am not saying other classes and specs are not complicated to play
- i am not saying that enhance should destroy meters on every single fight.
- i am not saying that other classes do not have similar issues, and that this is the ONLY class with issues
- i am not saying that since the class remains problematic at the moment, that it will NEVER be resolved or fixed.

What i AM saying, is that essentially, even on a fight that blizzard believes we do fine on (i.e saurfang), where we can devote our full attention to pumping out the maximum dps possible from our characters, we still lag way too far behind.

[http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...pageNo=30#593]
[http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...fang/25H/dps/]
[http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...ement_Shaman/]

I understand that once upon a time, some pure specs (Mut rogues i think) had some of the most complex rotations etc. in the game. This surely is no longer the case, and it is incredibly disheartening to have out maximum POTENTIAL dps be so abysmally low.

If it is a question of giving pures a higher capacity for DPS (all else being the same), then by all means let that be reflected in the effort they need to put in to master and play that class. If hybrids are to be 'penalized' (in whatever way), since we "have the option to utilize other specs", i don't see why pure classes shouldn't have the same (or more) of a threshold to plummet in dps.

Output should reflect skill and effort put in, not the *potential* to use other specs.

[msdos]

Issues of Hybrid vs. Pure aside, i think what irks a lot of enhancement shaman, is simply the fact that even in the hands of the very best members of our class, played to absolute perfection, the enhancement spec is not rewarded for the complexity involved with playing it.

What i AM saying, is that essentially, even on a fight that blizzard believes we do fine on (i.e saurfang), where we can devote our full attention to pumping out the maximum dps possible from our characters, we still lag way too far behind.

[http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...pageNo=30#593]
[http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...fang/25H/dps/]
[http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...ement_Shaman/]

If it is a question of giving pures a higher capacity for DPS (all else being the same), then by all means let that be reflected in the effort they need to put in to master and play that class. If hybrids are to be 'penalized' (in whatever way), since we "have the option to utilize other specs", i don't see why pure classes shouldn't have the same (or more) of a threshold to plummet in dps.

Output should reflect skill and effort put in, not the *potential* to use other specs.

this was a point i was trying to make in my post on page 5. it's not so much the numbers pures pull as it is how easy the DPS comes for them.

[Divnous]

I've played both ele and enhance..and both basically get the shaft dps wise. Some fights are amazing dps (like festergut if you are stacked on the melee) but for movement fights you are going to take a hit of at least 3k dps. Blizz is aware of the problem though so hopefully they will "fix" this.

[TheTieThatBinds]

I've been calling it the shaman tax for a while now.

but whatever. hopefully blizzard at least notices the QQ and takes a look at it. if they decide not to do anything then se la vie... i'll just question their intentions and move along.

---------- Post added 2010-08-03 at 08:52 PM ----------



I don't think that's correct... but feel free to prove me wrong with a link to a blue post.

Copied from:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...77330431&sid=1


"...This philosophy largely evolved in Wrath of the Lich King and is the design we plan on carrying forward to Cataclysm. In vanilla WoW, every class typically had one role. In BC, we tried to promote other roles for some classes, but we still didn’t make everyone play by the same rules. Warriors, and I hate to pick on them, were intended to be the best tank while also deliver dps that we would now label as competitive with rogues. By contrast, druids, paladins, priests and shaman were intended to be competitive healers, but have dramatically lower dps than pures and warriors. Likewise, druids, paladins, priests and shaman brought many unique and powerful buffs that were intended to compensate for their low dps. We spread these buffs out to a much greater degree in Lich King, and plan on refining that implementation for Cataclysm.

TLDR:

Hybrid = can respec to fulfill a different role (damage, tanking, or healing).
Hybrid != can fill multiple roles at the same time.
Hybrid != has awesome, amazing buffs or utility.
Hybrid != pure. Beyond that, there are no shades of gray among hybrids..."

I can't seem to find the post I read the information which I posted the first time, but I assume that it was deleted when GC made that Sticky in regards to "Hybrid Tax" to clear everything up.

If I find it, ill post it for ya.

[Flaks]

I don't have a shaman but I had a dream that the hybrid taxation would be lowered to around 1-2%. Then the bubble went pop when I realized how locks, mages, rogues and hunters have remained towards the top forever and random hybrids have popped up to first place due to lack of foresight on Blizzard's part and nothing else.

All that said, I think the homogenization of buffs that shaman bring should force Blizzard to consider how hard the hybrid tax hits shaman and as such bring them closer to everything else.

[bigjenk]

Hybrid tax would be fine if it was just 5 percent or even 10. But no shamans are topping out at 19-20k single target. Bis gear shaman are about 30 percent behind right now.

[Shampayne1985]

I wish we were hybrid taxed like Warriors...then I would be a happy Shaman.