Frost Badge Holy Libram

[Revolutions]

My guild doesn't work like that, and I'm the newbie, so no, that's not gonna happen

Out heal them, prove they are wrong.

Your guilds holy paladins are a new kind of stupid I haven't seen in a while.

[Elessa]

Direct them to this forum, we'll set 'em straight.

[shesta]

We've killed quite a few bosses, I think like 8 down in ICC25 heroic (though I might be a tiny bit off as I'm new to the guild): Marrowgar, Deathwhisper, Lootship, Rotface, Festergut, Princes, Blood Queen, Dreamwalker. They are not bad healers but I feel they could be doing much, much better with the correct theory behind their choices.

Direct them to this forum, we'll set 'em straight.

I did put a link to this thread on our guild forums, they said they didn't agree, and gave some reasons. E.g.

When I created holy build i checked also many paladins, talked to some top paladins of our realm to know their way of healing - it's not that I toke my spec and gear and "weeeeee let's go healing" xD But ofc if Kalev will tell me to change build to holy-prot I will do it
I also don't take items by gearscore - i wouldn't use lvl 258 legs if i have 264 ones in bank and also would use Trauma lvl 277 instead of Lockjaw - but that would be stupid I think about items I take, ofc sometimes I do mistakes but we people learn whole time
As for librams - when i cast FoL libram of renewal is kinda useless - that's why in this hybrid momments when i cast a bit flash a bit HL i use frosties libram. When it comes to heavy heal i use lvl 200 libram - both of them i have bound to macros so i can change them 100000 times in one fight Ofc I understant argument that renewal libram is best for HL spam - never said it's not Just when i'm not spamming HL i don't think it's use of it

Im not going to discues what is the best spec for holy paladins, and what gear is the best...

But i can tell why i have chosen as i have. Ive gone into holy/ret of course for the crit, and ive done that because my logic tells me, that 8 crit is better than DS and DG. And yes it is 8 crit and not only 5 crit. Paladins are tank healers, and DS and DG seems to me to be spells designed to save the party and not the tank. And I have never in this guild been told to focus on anything ells than the tanks. If you think of all the damage you reduce over the raid, then yes, no doubt that it is better than 8 crit. But if you only take the damage it reduces on the tank, i think 8 crit is better. Since you have the 8 crit all the time, and not only 10 sec every 2 mins like DS and DG. Even if you count the 20 percent extra absobtion, ill still prefer the 8 crit. I may be wrong, it is not a thing ive looked further into, it is only my logic.

Ive read alot of post that say that one should go holy/prot, but i still havent seen the final evidence that made me do it.

To my gear chooses. I have the frost libram, because it improves both my FoL and HL. I use FoL most of the time, but in more heavy healing fights or moments, ill go to a combo of FoL, HS and HL, or just HS and HL. I try to use HS as often as possible, but of course i miss it sometimes, so the 250 spellpower stacks goes off. To my knowledge there is no libram that improves the spellpower of HL as the frost libram, and since i have no problems with mana, i prefer to improve the output of the healing done by HL. With the 4 set bonus it makes HL cast just as fast as FoL then you cast HS first. But it is rotation that you need some sec to get into, before you have the full effect of it. In my head a paladin dont just use FoL or HL. And if you do that, you dont get the full effect of being a paladin. And this is the same reason, why i have gemmed like i have. A mix of int gems and spell gems, since i use both the FoL spam and the comboes. Again i may be wrong.

For the question that Kalev made, and where he wrote "especially dreamwalker", i cant see the reason for going into holy/prot. I think the holy/ret is mush better for dreamwalker. But this is because i cant see why raid damage reduction will help, then paladins job is to heal dreamwalker as fast as possible, and then the 8 crit is mush better in my head.

So yeah, make of that what you will.

[Alirana]

If they so stubbornly denies to see the benefits of raid cooldowns such as DS and AM - let them be - for now.

On fights such as sindra and LK HM the added resistance (AM) and less raid damage taken (DS) will save the raid and make a kill. When you've wiped on that a few nights your officers will start to think "how can we do this" and improving every member will come up at that point. Now it wont, because as you say, you have a decent amount of bosses down, and LDW and VDW are not exactly pushovers on 25HM, there is all the reason to be at least a bit cocky then.

However, I cannot help but feel pity upon them for being this mindless about cooldowns and suboptimization. Hell, it's like saying a discipline priest should not spec into PS for raid-shielding on LK. No it is not their direct job, working with Infest and all, it can and will still save a raid. Earn your stripes in your guild, that will make your words gain weight and eventually, you might eventually be able to have your officers force them to, well, learn to play. Good luck

[pionock]

Oh...dear god Shesta. You need to get out of that guild NOW! The first holy pally sounds like he doesn't read EJ forums at all (not that I'm condoning just blindly following EJ), otherwise he would know the amazing benefits of DG/DS. The second pally just seems like one of those people that needs a helmet on his head at all times so he doesn't hurt himself. A mix of int AND sp gems?! /facepalm

Another thing, he says he's a strictly tank healer. Well let me ask you this, how often does he use Hand of Sacrifice then? I know when I'm healing on my pally (who has almost exactly the same gear as you), I use Hand of Sacrifice on cooldown unless there's an instance where the tank is going to take some spike damage a specific time.

Either way, it sounds like you need to show these guys whose boss. Keep doing what you're doing. If they remove you for not doing what they're bad pallies are doing, then it's probably for the best.

[Ehtnalav]

I prefer holy/prot, and ever since I went there my healing is better.

As for not casting Aura mastery, and not using DS... these two abilities and DS by our pala tank casted during 2 BQL air phase basically gave us our heroic 25 man - and we still had to go little kamikaze on that ^^

Saying that you wont cast DS, cause it just saves the raid not DA TANK it's just unreasonable. Person who refuses to help is just a bad team players.

Use DS druing "o f*ck" situations (get 2 raid healers in tomb during Sindra second phase and try not to wipe it - DS is a lifesaver), Stun blood beasts, Cleanse oozes during Rotface, be on plague duty during LK... while doing all that heal the tanks, so they don't die. Then you are a good Holy paladin.

Paladins overheal too much with 30% buff anyway, I'd rather go for a few more utilities then few points in crit, that will only give more overhealing. I think I can manage healing my tanks with 9k FL, 18k HL and 38K HL crits.
If your fellow guildies think they are better thanks to few crit points, and they do nothing but whack a mole game by spamming the tanks cause they don't use utilities then they are not team players.

But your guild sound like the one takes people to raid because of their gear, and not skill. You might need to change the guild I'm afraid.

[darkwarrior42]

We've killed quite a few bosses, I think like 8 down in ICC25 heroic (though I might be a tiny bit off as I'm new to the guild): Marrowgar, Deathwhisper, Lootship, Rotface, Festergut, Princes, Blood Queen, Dreamwalker. They are not bad healers but I feel they could be doing much, much better with the correct theory behind their choices.

I did put a link to this thread on our guild forums, they said they didn't agree, and gave some reasons. E.g.

So yeah, make of that what you will.

I make of those posts that they aren't really thinking. "I focus on HL and FoL. Therefore, I use a libram that requires the use of HS." ... what?

Seriously, if they place that much value on the scant amount of power you gain on the frost libram over the triumph libram, they have serious issues. The frost libram is very possibly the worst Northrend libram in the game for holy paladins. The PvP ones are infinitely better because they always grant FoL power, and that spell needs as much as it can get. Renewal is awesome for obvious reasons. The 245 libram grants solid throughput and procs off our best spell (and unlike the FoL librams, this one grants generic SP which also boosts sacred shield). Even the 213 and 226 librams are *probably* better, because they at least boost the power of a spell we want to be using.

They don't think divine sacrifice is useful. They cast holy shock, our least efficient heal, on cooldown, then comment about mana issues when casting holy light. They intentionally use lower HPS healing models, then claim they need the tiny bit of extra spell power from the Frost libram to try and make up that difference. I'm honestly flabbergasted, and I have no idea how you can convince them to change their ways, because I can't see any logic that makes sense that has led them to do what they've done.

[Foibles]

Tell the first Paladin that every time they swap their Libram, that's 1.5 FoL and 1.2 or so HL wasted because of the Libram swap GCD.

Paladin number two is just stupid. he said he has no proof, only his own logic. Tell him everyone used to use their own logic to assume the world was flat and the Sun revolved around the Earth, till one guy actually did some tests and proved with facts such as those presented in this thread and others they were wrong.

And if they just won't change, casually suggest it to the Paladin class leader, or start apping around.

[Elessa]

Seems like your paladins doesn't want to listen to anyone but themselves, so trying to help 'em will be useless and waste of time.

[Ducon]

Why is that 2nd paladin even mentioning 4 set bonus?

[Xentin]

I'm more interested in why you take 3 holy paladins to your raids. Two I can understand, three is kinda overkill IMO. But, eh if it works for you guys.

Also, when your guild starts working on Heroic Professor Putricide 25 and Heroic Sindragosa 25 (sub-35%), ask them again if 8% crit is better than raid wide 30% damage reduction. For dumb holy paladins, DG doesn't seem important when you overgear easy heroic fights with the 30% raid buff.

[shocknawe]

Another thing, he says he's a strictly tank healer. Well let me ask you this, how often does he use Hand of Sacrifice then? I know when I'm healing on my pally (who has almost exactly the same gear as you), I use Hand of Sacrifice on cooldown unless there's an instance where the tank is going to take some spike damage a specific time.

As far as I know using hand of sac when not combined with bubble on any fight worth mentioning will one shot you......

on topic though, you should not be getting the 4 piece bonus anyways, just get the helm and shoulders.

Also prot+200 libram is the way to go, you actually lose throughput every time you use holy shock (even at 30% buff a tank is in danger of dying every single time I cast it while moving on HM LK), and as for the prot spec the raid wall is amazing, and prevents many a wipe on difficult encounters. Also, don't underestimate the SS buff you get from prot, SS does about 10% of my effective healing on H LK, and the increased duration gives you less gcd's wasted recasting it, potentially saving a tank's life

[Paladin885]

my two cents is this:

if you're running 90% of your raids with 2 other holy pallies its best to try and separate a little bit. Whether that is by speccing a few pts differently or picking a libram of your choice, try to bring it all to the table.

Like myself for instance, when I know that I have other holy pallies (which I do) all the time in raid who are specced and gear like twins, I try to be optimistic a little. Its in my nature to do so because I agree/disagree on EJ's BiS list a little (maybe i'm a non-conformist lol).

BTW, do what others said above me, out perform them. Use Recount and dont look at healing done, but rather right click on the names and look at the graphs and their spells cast during an encounter, then compare yourself to them. See how you stack up (dont forget to ignore JoL hehe), or if you guild uses worldoflogs.com(?) then check that out. Death charts are good to to see fail on tanks as well!

[Randomguy32]

I'v been playing as a holy paladin for about 3 years now, and the two hpallys in your guild sucks really bad. Bunch of gearscore addicts to me... I dont need to explain what they are doing wrong, 20 people before me has already stated that.

[Christel]

ugh those pallies are GS tools.

You are doing it right by using Renewal also pick up the 245, really nice on Dreamwalker. I see no reason at all to use 264 one.

Why would you even use Fol on hard modes? :P

Shesta, try to get Meteorite Crystal, you will not be disappointed!

[shesta]

Oh I've been trying to get it, and Solace, but unfortunately no luck with either! Getting Algalon 10 runs should be an achievement in itself

[Asrialol]

To those speccing into crit, read.

While this "math" isn't really "correct" (Since it's RNG related), I'll shortly show what 8% crit is worth in a scenario where exactly 40% and 48% of your spells crits. (Unlikely, but let's do this roughly.)

Let's say we have two Paladins, one with 40% crit and one with 48% crit.

In a 6 minute fight, 40% Crit'adin would cast 300 Holy Lights (assuming a 1.2 sec cast time). Let's say that he got exactly 40% crits, which is 120 Holy Lights. If we do some easypeasy math we'd find out that those 40% crit in that 6 minute fight would be roughly 550mp5.

The 48% Crit'adin would also cast 300 Holy Lights, with 48% crit, which would mean 144 spells crits. In a 6 minute fight, 48% crit means roughly 660mp5.

Obviously it's about 100mp5 worth for 8 talent points. If we count in the very random troughput (Which obviously means overhealing in most situations), it's not really that bad. But I wouldn't spend That many talents on it.

Anyway, your paladins that's saying "We have no problem with mana" shouldn't have a problem loosing a slight mp5 and extremely low troughput loss to get one of the best raid tools ingame.

Oh, and the mana you save from casting Sacred Shield once per minute instead of twice is worth nearly 50mp5 in a 6minute fight. Half the regen for only 2 talent points, as well as an increased absorb and a raid shield wall? Wheres the logic not to get this?

[Smoopie]

HS on cooldown....sorry i can't breathe right now

[Deleted]

I feel it's important to add a bit of context here... if the thread had stuck to pure theorycrafting then it wouldn't be necessary but unfortunately there've been some statements which are personal about the players and not constructive. There have been some posts on here that have been really helpful, and interesting theorycrafting, and others that say nothing useful except to randomly abuse 2 players and make assumptions about them O_o

At the end of the day the pallies in question aren't l33t 0wnz0r gearscore addicts, I've come across epeen monsters and they're not it, they just have a different opinion - albeit right or wrong . The guild isn't like many 'uber' guilds where the officers are prescriptive and controlling, and will disregard an individual's wishes. Where possible we'll allow people to have their own ideas and learn at their own pace. After all it's a freaking game that everyone wants to enjoy no?

For the record, Shesta's a valuable member of the guild, and one of my fellow healers and I hope will be, well into Cata. And even with people still learning and yet to reach full potential 8/12 heroic aint bad... BUT I will server and faction transfer the second the guild starts allowing their members to be flamed, instead of just introducing new ideas and encouraging discussion. Its disappointing that the only thing which made this issue contentious was the 10% of people who just aren't laid back, or particularly helpful people.

Lastly, again, thanks to the 90% of folks out there who contributed in a constructive and thoughtful way Hope to see you in the game some time.

Peace out.

---------- Post added 2010-08-05 at 10:46 PM ----------

And Shest - we showdown with Algy tomorrow night *hurrah!*

[s8mpurye]

Blindly following a forum can cause bad players. Blindly following Ilvl's on gear can cause bad players. Blindly ignoring help because you think your "logic" is better than the next persons causes bad players.

I can do the math to show the increase in absorbs from SS while spec'd into DG, and I could do the math showing 8% crit isn't worth it, but frankly the paladins in question will never read it.

I'm not normaly one to slander. When a person doesn't know how to play his class to its best potential not only does it make themselves look bad, it makes the entire healing core look bad. If your officers allow the paladin healers to be so obviously wrong, then i'd hate to see the rest of the guildies. If your paladins want to learn how to play plz have them ask questions on the forums here or to look around a little more, maybe talk to the paladin healers on their server.

OT: Stick with the libram of renewal, ignore their bad choices and dont let it lead you wrongly.