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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Balduvian View Post
    I got 3, and a PvE part.
    You're right; my point still stands though. 858 res is still not that great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Balduvian View Post
    Also, legs and gloves can be obtained trough Voa, and Relentless is just so easy to obtain that it's not even funny. Furious is shitgear, even for BG's only, and since others are so easy obtainable while not doing Arena I don't see the point in not getting them..?
    Getting PvP gear through VoA is not a reliable source. Why would you design a set around gear you have a really low chance of getting?

    Relentless gear is not that easy to obtain if you DON'T arena or raid. You could get a piece about every month if you did the battleground daily everyday. Also you could get a piece about every month through frost emblems. If you did everything possible you could have a full set of relentless in about 2.5 months. Not something I would plan a starter set around.

    Furious gear is not shit gear, it's the best a battleground only player will have for awhile. Get over yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Balduvian View Post
    Also, the point was that PvE rings/cloak/neck are totally worth it because the PvP ones are complete shit.
    We get your point, HIGH LEVEL PvE rings/cloak/neck are better than PvP rings/cloak/neck. You're arguing tangents for your own sake. Find me PvE rings/neck/cloak that you can obtain without raiding that are better than the PvP rings/cloak/neck. It's not going to happen.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Balduvian View Post
    Quite a big percentage of the highrated Feral Druids are actually wearing <1k resi. There's not an actual number you really "need" in order to do well, and especially for BG's, you don't need THAT much.

    EDIT: Your link doesn't work either.
    00/58/13/ Fixed

    As for the resi, show me a very high rated feral with less than 1000resi.

  3. #23
    I am Murloc! Balduvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woogs View Post
    You're right; my point still stands though. 858 res is still not that great.
    Nope, 858 resi would be kind of low. Though, if you would actually do the math, it would bring you down to 1024. (Relentless Head: 80, PvE Shoulders: 0, Wrathful Chest: 114, Wrathful Gloves: 85, Wrathful Legs: 114. That's a total of 393, while the 4 Furious Parts + WG shoulders in total has 342. That's a loss of 51 Resi. (1075 - 51 = 1024) These parts are all obtainable trough BG and WG.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woogs View Post
    Getting PvP gear through VoA is not a reliable source. Why would you design a set around gear you have a really low chance of getting?
    Nope, it is indeed not. I haven't seen a Feral Druid item which I needed drop the past 2 seasons, but still, IT IS possible. Run it every week, and you'll have a pretty decent chance of getting an upgrade there eventually. Actually, you'll have a pretty decent chance of getting an item your first few runs, as you're in Furious gear and Relentless, Wrathful, T10 and T10,5 all drop there, and are all upgrades.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woogs View Post
    Relentless gear is not that easy to obtain if you DON'T arena or raid. You could get a piece about every month if you did the battleground daily everyday. Also you could get a piece about every month through frost emblems. If you did everything possible you could have a full set of relentless in about 2.5 months. Not something I would plan a starter set around.
    It is, and you're just guessing about how much time it would take. Lose 10 5v5 games for 6 weeks, (I know you want BG only, but losing 10 games is just a matter of 15 minutes, at it's MAX.) while doing the daily BG every day. After those 6 weeks, you'll be sitting at enough ArenaPoints to buy the Relentless Head, Chest, Gloves and Legs. (Shoulders trough WG). Do VoA meanwhile, and you'll have a chance of 4 (FOUR) different sets to drop which are all an upgrade compared to Furious/WG gear. If you find one, you can stop losing 5's a few weeks earlier. If not, to bad but you're still done in 6 weeks.

    This is WITHOUT Weekly Raid or Daily HC. Do them aswell and you'll probably be done faster though, but I would recommend to do these for the Emblem Cloak. Also, the OP doesn't want to get involved into some raid he won't get in anyway, so I'm guessing he means ICC/RS pugs. A weekly raid however, is totally different and everyone can get into one with ease.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woogs View Post
    Furious gear is not shit gear, it's the best a battleground only player will have for awhile. Get over yourself.
    Yep, it's the best BG set for now. Doesn't change the fact that it's become rather bad by now. Get over myself? Furious is a nice set to start with, but the fact that it's not nearly amazing anymore can't be denied. That's all I'm saying so what in heaven is your reasoning behind saying this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Woogs View Post
    We get your point, HIGH LEVEL PvE rings/cloak/neck are better than PvP rings/cloak/neck. You're arguing tangents for your own sake. Find me PvE rings/neck/cloak that you can obtain without raiding that are better than the PvP rings/cloak/neck. It's not going to happen.
    It's not? Wowhead isn't working atm, so I will try to find some on thottbot:

    - Recovered Scarlet Onslaught Cape. This one is FAR superior to the Wrathful cloak. (Frost Emblems)
    - Wodin's Lucky Necklace. Again, FAR superior to the Wrathful Neck. (About 6-8k gold)
    - Dexterous Brightstone Ring. Pretty much superior to the Relentless Ring, probably not better then the Wrathful one though. (Triumph Emblems)

    Perhaps there are some more, couldn't think of any though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zibeline View Post
    As for the resi, show me a very high rated feral with less than 1000resi.
    Here goes:

    Ryle, using 903 Resi
    Talason, using 932 Resi

    Just 2 of them I could find fast, but these guys are 2 of the best Feral Druids of the world atm.
    Last edited by Balduvian; 2010-08-06 at 09:09 AM.

  4. #24
    Wow, this is amazing. You take the situation we are debating about, use the variables you want to use, and then try to prove your point. First off, lets declare global variables for this thread:

    - The OP wants a BG-only PvP set without raiding, doing arena, or buying gear off the AH
    - He wants to take it seriously (spell pen)

    Hopefully, we can agree on those points. You seem to keep arguing to save face or don't grasp the situation at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Balduvian View Post
    Nope, 858 resi would be kind of low. Though, if you would actually do the math, it would bring you down to 1024. (Relentless Head: 80, PvE Shoulders: 0, Wrathful Chest: 114, Wrathful Gloves: 85, Wrathful Legs: 114. That's a total of 393, while the 4 Furious Parts + WG shoulders in total has 342. That's a loss of 51 Resi. (1075 - 51 = 1024) These parts are all obtainable trough BG and WG.
    Yes, I actually did some quick math. It's funny how suddenly your weapons res is factored in when it previously wasn't ... lol. Obviously this shouldn't be factored in because a BG-only player will not have access to a PvP weapon. Here's the math:

    1024 (base res) - 108 (weapon res) = 916 res w/o weapon

    Relentless helm res (80) + Wrathful chest res (114) + Wrathful leg res (114) + Wrathful glove res (85) = 393
    Furious helm res (64) + Furious chest res (80) + Furious leg res (80) + Furious glove res (47) = 271
    Res lost from main set downgrade: 393 - 271 = 122

    916 - 122 = 794 res

    This was meant as a simple way to convey to you that the player's res would be too low to advocate switching out PvP items for PvE.

    You tried to skew your argument by adding in the shoulder res that was gained from switching your shoulders from PvE to PvP:

    794 + 71 (shoulder res) = 865 res
    1024 (base res) - 108 (weapon res) - 51 (downgrade res) = 865 res

    The only true value both sides can agree upon is if all your character's PvP items are downgraded to the highest iLvl attainable by a BG-only player: (which this thread is all about)

    865 - 13 (boot downgrade) - 13 (belt downgrade) = 839 res

    Now, we are at your character's gear with the appropriate PvP gear FOR THIS SITUATION, sitting at 839 res with your PvE cloak and rings and no res from a weapon. Wow, who would of thought that at this gear level those PvE pieces are not worth it, even though they are relatively high item levels. If only I had, say full relentless or full wrathful, I could justify swapping out SOME PvP accessories for PvE versions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Balduvian View Post
    Nope, it is indeed not. I haven't seen a Feral Druid item which I needed drop the past 2 seasons, but still, IT IS possible. Run it every week, and you'll have a pretty decent chance of getting an upgrade there eventually. Actually, you'll have a pretty decent chance of getting an item your first few runs, as you're in Furious gear and Relentless, Wrathful, T10 and T10,5 all drop there, and are all upgrades.
    ... ... ... ? You haven't seen a feral druid item for 8 months and are still suggesting this is a factor in determining the best BG-only PvP set. It should be seen as a possible upgrade, but should not be relied on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Balduvian View Post
    It is, and you're just guessing about how much time it would take. Lose 10 5v5 games for 6 weeks, (I know you want BG only, but losing 10 games is just a matter of 15 minutes, at it's MAX.) while doing the daily BG every day. After those 6 weeks, you'll be sitting at enough ArenaPoints to buy the Relentless Head, Chest, Gloves and Legs. (Shoulders trough WG). Do VoA meanwhile, and you'll have a chance of 4 (FOUR) different sets to drop which are all an upgrade compared to Furious/WG gear. If you find one, you can stop losing 5's a few weeks earlier. If not, to bad but you're still done in 6 weeks.
    Once again, I did do some actual math. OMG math.

    Arena points needed: (770) Relentless helm + (600) relentless shoulder + (770) relentless chest + (440) relentless gloves + (770) relentless legs = 3350 arena points
    Max arena points per week: 175 (BG daily)
    Amount of you set earned per week with arena points: ~5% (20 weeks or 5 months for the whole set)

    Emblems needed: (95) Relentless helm + (60) relentless shoulder + (95) relentless chest + (60) relentless gloves + (95) relentless legs = 405
    Max emblems per week: 10 (heroic daily) + 5 (raid weekly) = 15
    Amount of your set earned per week with emblems: ~4% (25 weeks or 6.25 months for the whole set)

    Like I said if you did everything, you'll have your full relentless set in about 2.5 months.

    The difference between our numbers is you factored in getting 344 arena points per week from losing arenas in 5v5. While I agree that this is the fastest way to get higher level PvP items, I don't agree with doing arena only to lose. My numbers are right, but if you wan to go that route it can definately improve the time it takes to get full relentless.

    Again, you took what I was arguing, changed the variables to try to prove me wrong. My point was a full relentless set in 2.5 months. Your point is 4 pieces of relentless in 1.5 months. You said you only factored getting the set from arena points: the BG daily, and losing 5v5. You did not factor in getting the gear from emblems. You came up with 1.5 months.

    Ok, lets use your situation. 1.5 months to get those 4 main set pieces. You can have 4 pieces of furious in 4 days. I would build a starter set with the furious and upgrade the pieces as they come through dailies and VoA. You should have a full PvP set before you can even obtain the first relentless piece.

    Quote Originally Posted by Balduvian View Post
    Yep, it's the best BG set for now. Doesn't change the fact that it's become rather bad by now. Get over myself? Furious is a nice set to start with, but the fact that it's not nearly amazing anymore can't be denied. That's all I'm saying so what in heaven is your reasoning behind saying this?
    I don't think BG-only players would call the best thing they can get shit gear. It may be to YOU. Through your postings and debating you show a bit of elitism, which 'Get over yourself' is an appropriate response.

    Quote Originally Posted by Balduvian View Post
    It's not? Wowhead isn't working atm, so I will try to find some on thottbot:

    - Recovered Scarlet Onslaught Cape. This one is FAR superior to the Wrathful cloak. (Frost Emblems)
    - Wodin's Lucky Necklace. Again, FAR superior to the Wrathful Neck. (About 6-8k gold)
    - Dexterous Brightstone Ring. Pretty much superior to the Relentless Ring, probably not better then the Wrathful one though. (Triumph Emblems)

    Perhaps there are some more, couldn't think of any though.
    You're right about the cloak, I did not look at the top emblem rewards. Though this would only be worth it if this was the ONLY PvE piece or else your res would be too low

    The OP doesn't want to buy stuff off the AH, which as been said a few times.

    If you need the hit, then it is not better.

    Find anymore?

  5. #25
    I am Murloc! Balduvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woogs View Post
    Wow, this is amazing. You take the situation we are debating about, use the variables you want to use, and then try to prove your point. First off, lets declare global variables for this thread:

    - The OP wants a BG-only PvP set without raiding, doing arena, or buying gear off the AH
    - He wants to take it seriously (spell pen)

    Hopefully, we can agree on those points. You seem to keep arguing to save face or don't grasp the situation at all.
    Well yes, that's clear. But AGAIN, I don't see why you would NOT do the 10 5v5 losses once every week as it takes 15 minutes and it can get you ALOT higher up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woogs View Post
    Yes, I actually did some quick math. It's funny how suddenly your weapons res is factored in when it previously wasn't ... lol. Obviously this shouldn't be factored in because a BG-only player will not have access to a PvP weapon. Here's the math:

    1024 (base res) - 108 (weapon res) = 916 res w/o weapon

    Relentless helm res (80) + Wrathful chest res (114) + Wrathful leg res (114) + Wrathful glove res (85) = 393
    Furious helm res (64) + Furious chest res (80) + Furious leg res (80) + Furious glove res (47) = 271
    Res lost from main set downgrade: 393 - 271 = 122

    916 - 122 = 794 res
    Forgot about the Weapon, but my base res was not 1024 at that time. I bought the necklace to try it out, but my base res when we started this conversation was 1075, but hey, let's count on from the 1024. Fine by me. Anyway, you forget how much deffensive stats the Agility actually gives you (though against melee mostly). Let's take a look at what the Agility on it self would give you:

    Necklace: 104 Agi, Cloak: 104 Agi, Ring1: 82 Agi, Ring2: 86 Agi. Total: 376.

    376 x 1,06% (due to talents) = 399 Agi.

    399 Agi gives you:
    - 8,4% Dodge
    - 798 Armor
    - 399 Attack Power
    - 4,79% Crit

    This is the result, from AGI ONLY, and just from swapping 4 items. The resi you lose trough doing this is:

    Necklace: 60 Resi (0,7%) Cloak: 60 Resi (0,7%), Ring1: 60 Resi(0,7%), Ring2: 50(0,6%). Total: 230 resi (2,7%)

    To me, it's really obvious that the PvE gear is the better choice. Don't look at the number of resi, look at how much it decreases damage taken...2,7%. Against Melee, that 8,4% dodge and 798 Armor is going to help you ALOT more, and then I mean ALOT. Against Casters, it's a bit of a loss, but you still get a HUGE improvement in DPS stats which enables you to crit down the Mages, Warlocks and Shamans before they even saw you.

    And to be honest, someone who knows his class a bit playing with 800+ resi in Battlegrounds should be doing fine. Feral Druids are not excluded from this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woogs View Post
    ... ... ... ? You haven't seen a feral druid item for 8 months and are still suggesting this is a factor in determining the best BG-only PvP set. It should be seen as a possible upgrade, but should not be relied on.
    I haven't seen any when I needed them, so I bought it all with Arena Points, then I couldn't be arsed to go back there again as I didn't need anything. I guess I should've mentioned it.

    Though, you're right about VoA not being a reliable source on gear but still, if you go there once every week, you got a pretty decent chance of actually getting atleast one item, especially when you're in Furious Gear. VoA isn't reliable, but 100% worth it when you still need the gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woogs View Post
    Once again, I did do some actual math. OMG math.

    Arena points needed: (770) Relentless helm + (600) relentless shoulder + (770) relentless chest + (440) relentless gloves + (770) relentless legs = 3350 arena points
    Max arena points per week: 175 (BG daily)
    Amount of you set earned per week with arena points: ~5% (20 weeks or 5 months for the whole set)
    You can't say my math was wrong though. I mentioned (a few times) that losing 10 5v5 games every week will give you a nice ammount and it takes 15 minutes. Now I know the OP doesn't want to do any arena's, but what's the problem in doing this for 15 minutes once every week so you'll have a better gearset to do your ow-so-beloved BG's with all day long..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Woogs View Post
    Emblems needed: (95) Relentless helm + (60) relentless shoulder + (95) relentless chest + (60) relentless gloves + (95) relentless legs = 405
    Max emblems per week: 10 (heroic daily) + 5 (raid weekly) = 15
    Amount of your set earned per week with emblems: ~4% (25 weeks or 6.25 months for the whole set)

    Like I said if you did everything, you'll have your full relentless set in about 2.5 months.

    The difference between our numbers is you factored in getting 344 arena points per week from losing arenas in 5v5. While I agree that this is the fastest way to get higher level PvP items, I don't agree with doing arena only to lose. My numbers are right, but if you wan to go that route it can definately improve the time it takes to get full relentless.
    First off, I didn't even take the Weekly raid/daily HC into my calculation. Secondly, if you do EVERYTHING like you say, it would NEVER take 2.5 months to get the set.

    About the 5's. I've never used this method, as I don't like it. Yet, it IS the fastest way, like you state yourself. If you don't like to lose 10 games on purpose, then go ahead and try to win all 10 of them. Still, this would take about max 45-60 minutes to do, once every week, and just for a few weeks, as you're done REALLY fast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woogs View Post

    Again, you took what I was arguing, changed the variables to try to prove me wrong. My point was a full relentless set in 2.5 months. Your point is 4 pieces of relentless in 1.5 months. You said you only factored getting the set from arena points: the BG daily, and losing 5v5. You did not factor in getting the gear from emblems. You came up with 1.5 months.
    Yes, I said 4 pieces. Why? Because the WG shoulders give you the exact same stats and it's even easier to get. Yes, it has hit and the other one doesn't, but you can just drop a Hit-offset piece now, so it still doesn't matter in your actual stats.

    About Frost Emblems, I said that if you really don't want to do this, then it will still only take 1,5 month, but if you DO do this, it will take less time. (I didn't actually calculate how much less, but obviously this is true.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Woogs View Post
    Ok, lets use your situation. 1.5 months to get those 4 main set pieces. You can have 4 pieces of furious in 4 days. I would build a starter set with the furious and upgrade the pieces as they come through dailies and VoA. You should have a full PvP set before you can even obtain the first relentless piece.
    I never said you shouldn't get the Furious set first. In fact, I said it was a decent set to start out with. Though, after you get those 4 Furious parts in 4 days, it's absolutely worth it getting the Relentless parts, in whatever way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woogs View Post
    I don't think BG-only players would call the best thing they can get shit gear. It may be to YOU. Through your postings and debating you show a bit of elitism, which 'Get over yourself' is an appropriate response.
    Maybe it was a bit harsh the way I said it, but in fact all I was trying to say is that Furious gear is far from great, and you can't deny that. And no, I'm far from an elitist. In fact, I wouldn't even dare being one untill I get atleast 2.4k rating with my Feral Druid, but as of now, I know where I stand being the 1850-1900 rated Feral Druid (lolscrub!) that I am. Though, this doesn't mean that I don't know a thing or 2 about my class and I'm just saying how I think about this situation. Saying "get over yourself" just because you're having a healthy arguement with someone is beyond me though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woogs View Post
    You're right about the cloak, I did not look at the top emblem rewards. Though this would only be worth it if this was the ONLY PvE piece or else your res would be too low

    The OP doesn't want to buy stuff off the AH, which as been said a few times.

    If you need the hit, then it is not better.

    Find anymore?
    I don't think it has to be your only piece, especially not for BG's. This is where our opinions cross it seems, but imo you just don't need a huge ammount of Resi in BG's, nor in Arena's if you know what you're doing. (2 links were given to prove this, and yes, there are more).

    About the neck, I was just showing you that there ARE great PvE items which you can obtain without raiding, and are better than the PvP rings/cloak/neck.

    And hit? Nope, it's not better if you don't need the hit, but you VERY probably do.


    Anyway, to end this, we clearly got a different opinion about PvE/PvP gear in BG's. You like Resi. I like Agi. We're both trying to help the OP, both in a different way, and we're both not doing it wrong. Our opinions just don't match, but both can work fine. If the OP likes Resi, he should definitely go on and follow your road. If he likes Agi better, like me, he should follow mine instead. Either way we both tried to help him/her out, so different views and opinions about a situation, both trying to make it better are always good. There's no point in argueing on about this.

    Have fun and get over yourself!

    --^ Joke, before you start a whole new arguement.
    Last edited by Balduvian; 2010-08-07 at 08:54 AM.

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