Ret paladins & Holy power generation

[dan.tabris]

Being GCD-capped IS inherently bad for every class, especially so to a spec like Ret that has so much to offer the group beyond damage.

Designing our rotation in such a way that we have no room for our "entire suite" of group utility and self defense, AND can't even use our "entire suite" of damaging abilities, is bad design, regardless of whether or not you are willing to admit it.

Requiring you to cease your dps for a GCD in order to utilize other abilities to help the raid is not "bad design." It depends on the context of the fight mechanics - unless a fight is incredibly finely tuned, a loss of, e.g., 50 dps from a single character is not going to lead to a wipe. On the other hand, with the new healing landscape coming in Cataclysm, lack of effective utility abilities (whether our various Hand spells, our new interrupt, or intelligent use of CC) might easily do so.

You've presented no argument whatsoever, convincing or otherwise, to back up your claim. Everyone is just supposed to accept what you say as gospel because - what, you can repeat yourself loudly?

[Chareoss]

Requiring you to cease your dps for a GCD in order to utilize other abilities to help the raid is not "bad design." It depends on the context of the fight mechanics - unless a fight is incredibly finely tuned, a loss of, e.g., 50 dps from a single character is not going to lead to a wipe. On the other hand, with the new healing landscape coming in Cataclysm, lack of effective utility abilities (whether our various Hand spells, our new interrupt, or intelligent use of CC) might easily do so.

You've presented no argument whatsoever, convincing or otherwise, to back up your claim. Everyone is just supposed to accept what you say as gospel because - what, you can repeat yourself loudly?

I don't know about you but if I had to chose between either staring at my bar and buffs using every GCD to make sure my dps is as good as it can be, or rather having some fun and using my skill to concentrate and survive through a certain boss mechanic or to even enjoy the boss fight and its surroundings... i'd be choosing the latter.

Why do people want dps'ing to be so complicated and require so much attention? Yes player A should be doing more dps then player B because he has more brain skill with which abilities to use and when, but why the hell would you need to be hitting a button every GCD using close to 10 different abilities just to maximize your dps, which also defers you from doing what you're supposed to be doing to help the group/raid?

We've all seen it in wotlk, especially in ICC. people don't give a crap about what their role is in a fight, or how to use a non dps ability to help the raid, many, and yes, especially pugs, are only focused on their rotation/FCFS (because many classes do have rotations/fcfs's that require alot of monitoring and/or eye shifting) causing them to be lazy to do anything else.

[wolfpaq777]

Requiring you to cease your dps for a GCD in order to utilize other abilities to help the raid is not "bad design." It depends on the context of the fight mechanics - unless a fight is incredibly finely tuned, a loss of, e.g., 50 dps from a single character is not going to lead to a wipe. On the other hand, with the new healing landscape coming in Cataclysm, lack of effective utility abilities (whether our various Hand spells, our new interrupt, or intelligent use of CC) might easily do so.

You've presented no argument whatsoever, convincing or otherwise, to back up your claim. Everyone is just supposed to accept what you say as gospel because - what, you can repeat yourself loudly?

haha, so you spend 3 sentences responding to my arguments, and then throw in what I think you intend to be an insult saying I have no argument? Cognitive dissonance much? Anyway, since you are either being purposefully annoying, or are extremely slow I will number my arguments.

1) Blizzard has stated that due to the increased difficulty in healing, it is important that DPS be able to take actions to keep themselves alive / save healers mana, without having to sacrifice massive amounts of dps.
2) Blizzard has repeatedly stated that the reason for the DK rune system modification is due to GCD constraints.
3) GCD is 1500 milliseconds. Blizzard has stated in the past that they are opposed to GCD capped rotations because the average player with ~150 ping is going to be losing substantial dps in a 5-10 minute boss fight from latency alone.

That clear enough for you? When Blizzard states several times that GCD capping a spec is a bad idea, and then redesigns ret to be GCD capped, that is bad design. It's extremely simple logic. Forcing us to spend every other global on 1 strike is not only boring, it is bad design.

[Bladewind]

haha, so you spend 3 sentences responding to my arguments, and then throw in what I think you intend to be an insult saying I have no argument? Cognitive dissonance much? Anyway, since you are either being purposefully annoying, or are extremely slow I will number my arguments.

1) Blizzard has stated that due to the increased difficulty in healing, it is important that DPS be able to take actions to keep themselves alive / save healers mana, without having to sacrifice massive amounts of dps.
2) Blizzard has repeatedly stated that the reason for the DK rune system modification is due to GCD constraints.
3) GCD is 1500 milliseconds. Blizzard has stated in the past that they are opposed to GCD capped rotations because the average player with ~150 ping is going to be losing substantial dps in a 5-10 minute boss fight from latency alone.

That clear enough for you? When Blizzard states several times that GCD capping a spec is a bad idea, and then redesigns ret to be GCD capped, that is bad design. It's extremely simple logic. Forcing us to spend every other global on 1 strike is not only boring, it is bad design.

i agree with you dude.

[Alenko]

correct me if Im wrong but wont the "rotation" be a spam (CS) +a priority on fillers +once at 3 HP a priority based dump? so something like:

CS
Judge>Exo>HW
CS
HP dump (Inq>TV>DS>WoG) (if judge procs Divine Purpose)
Judge>Exo>HW
HP dump (Inq>TV>DS>Wog) (if exo procs Divine Purpose)
CS (if neither Judge or Exo procs Divine Purpse)
HP dump (Inq>TV>DS>WoG)

so in short no it won't be a 11121112 and then once you use Zealotry right after you get Inq up it will be a 1212121212 situation for that 15 seconds.

and as a note I haven't played nor payed attention to anything wow in the past 2.5 months and am just now looking at the new ret stuff so dont flame to hard (a little's ok :P)

ok edit 2: does anyone know if the 40% chance for HW to proc an HP a 40% chance on each target it hits or just 40% chance to proc per use?

[Deleted]

It is a rotation with a priority, combined into one.

Say you have we "groups":

1. CS Group- Includes CS
2. Holy Power dump Group (in order of Priority)- Includes Inq, TV, WoG.
3. Damage Filler Group (in order of Priority)- Judge, Exo, HoW, HW, Cons

Now, the rotation looks like:

0- CS
1.5- Filler
3- CS
4.5- Filler
6- CS
7.5- HP Dump

And repeat.

That's what was posted above essentially, and again it's not taking account of RNG sources of HoPo, so the rotation can't be Group 1 > Group 2 Priority Ability > Group 1 > Group 2 Priority Ability > Group 1 > Group 3 priority ability, because at the time you posted this, group 3 may generate an additional HoPo, and now, Group 2 may generate it.

So even wording it like that, you still can't optimally rotate those 3 "groups" of abilities selecting the optimal one within each as the very groups themselves have a priority - you still need to have a priority check at each step that asks "do I have 3 HoPo? If yes, group 3 is now priority"

CS
Judge>Exo>HW
CS
HP dump (Inq>TV>DS>WoG) (if judge procs Divine Purpose)
Judge>Exo>HW
HP dump (Inq>TV>DS>Wog) (if exo procs Divine Purpose)
CS (if neither Judge or Exo procs Divine Purpse)
HP dump (Inq>TV>DS>WoG)

This looks about right, although I don't think it's likely that sacrificing inquisition uptime to refresh only at 3 stacks would be optimal. More will be known later I guess.

[DaGhostDS]

The more I read about that rotation the more i <3 it!

[wolfpaq777]

The more I read about that rotation the more i <3 it!

I would love it a lot more if they did the following

1) put crusader strike back on a 6 second cooldown, adjust damage and mana cost as necessary. Change improved crusader strike to make CS apply a stack of censor (seal of truth dot) so our ramp-up time isn't so abysmal (currently have the worst ramp up time of any dps in the game because of the way seal of vengeance works).
2) judgment generates a holy power.
3) judgment & cs crits generate 2 holy power.
Every other class with combo points has multiple means of generating them, and can spec into extra combo points on crit. there is no reason for paladins not to have the same.

4) Increase the proc rate of art of war, or have it proc off all our abilities. As it stands now, even with 100% melee up time on a target we will be getting 1 proc every 7 swings, which is 24 seconds with the standard 3.6 speed 2 hander. What's the point of lowering exorcism's cooldown from 15 to 10 if we can only use it once every 24 seconds?

edit:
5) If Holy Wrath is going to be an essential part of our rotation, it needs its cooldown lowered and it needs to scale with attack power as well as SP (see judgment, exorcism).

[Alenko]

I would love it a lot more if they did the following

1) put crusader strike back on a 6 second cooldown, adjust damage and mana cost as necessary. Change improved crusader strike to make CS apply a stack of censor (seal of truth dot) so our ramp-up time isn't so abysmal (currently have the worst ramp up time of any dps in the game because of the way seal of vengeance works).
2) judgment generates a holy power.
3) judgment & cs crits generate 2 holy power.
Every other class with combo points has multiple means of generating them, and can spec into extra combo points on crit. there is no reason for paladins not to have the same.

4) Increase the proc rate of art of war, or have it proc off all our abilities. As it stands now, even with 100% melee up time on a target we will be getting 1 proc every 7 swings, which is 24 seconds with the standard 3.6 speed 2 hander. What's the point of lowering exorcism's cooldown from 15 to 10 if we can only use it once every 24 seconds?

edit:
5) If Holy Wrath is going to be an essential part of our rotation, it needs its cooldown lowered and it needs to scale with attack power as well as SP (see judgment, exorcism).

1) With the current 4 second base CD and the addition of the cd reduction talent this means we can do a CS/filler/CS (faster stack on HPs from CS). add to that the Divine Purpose talent (40% to add one HP on Judge/Exo/HW hit)
2)&3) doing this would mean we would generate more HP than could be used as (I assume, as like I said in my previous post a little up just started to read up on all the ret changes so far just today) 3 HP is the maximum number of HP points you can have at once and with the GCD being what it is you wouldn't be able to spend them fast enough so overall (guessing) you would see a dps down grade as you aren't CSing as much (less actual hits = less seal dmg from CS etc)
4)from what I've heard this could use some love but could also be over done to the point where AoW is up more than really is needed (similar to too man HPs, AoW would reproc while already up and you will essentially miss using a proc).
5) well with it having a 30 second cd and judgement 8 and exo 15 you will probably see it getting a slightly lowered cd (me guessing) as a "rotaion" would be

CS - 0
Judge - 1.5 (8 seconds start)
CS - 3 (J6.5)
Exor - 4.5 (15 seconds start; J5.0)
CS - 6 (J3.5 E13.5)
HP Dump - 7.5 (assuming no Divine Purpose procs; J1.0 E 12.0)
CS - 9 (J off cd E10.5)
Judge - 10.5 (8 seconds start; E9.0)
CS - 12 (J6.5 E7.5)
HW - 13.5 (30 seconds start; J5.0 E6.0)
CS - 15 (J3.5 E4.5 HW28.5)
HP Dump - 16.5 (assuuming no DP Procs; J1.0 E3.0 HW27)
consecration?
CS - 19.5 (J off cd E1.5 HW25.5)
Judge
CS
Exor
CS
HP dump (HW at 18 abd J and E and Cons are all still on cd, got tired of typing)
CS
nothing can go here as all are still on CD

of course this could also lead to conscrations CD removal or REALLY shortened.

[wolfpaq777]

1) With the current 4 second base CD and the addition of the cd reduction talent this means we can do a CS/filler/CS (faster stack on HPs from CS). add to that the Divine Purpose talent (40% to add one HP on Judge/Exo/HW hit)
2)&3) doing this would mean we would generate more HP than could be used as (I assume, as like I said in my previous post a little up just started to read up on all the ret changes so far just today) 3 HP is the maximum number of HP points you can have at once and with the GCD being what it is you wouldn't be able to spend them fast enough so overall (guessing) you would see a dps down grade as you aren't CSing as much (less actual hits = less seal dmg from CS etc)
4)from what I've heard this could use some love but could also be over done to the point where AoW is up more than really is needed (similar to too man HPs, AoW would reproc while already up and you will essentially miss using a proc).
5) well with it having a 30 second cd and judgement 8 and exo 15 you will probably see it getting a slightly lowered cd (me guessing) as a "rotaion" would be

CS - 0
Judge - 1.5 (8 seconds start)
CS - 3 (J6.5)
Exor - 4.5 (15 seconds start; J5.0)
CS - 6 (J3.5 E13.5)
HP Dump - 7.5 (assuming no Divine Purpose procs; J1.0 E 12.0)
CS - 9 (J off cd E10.5)
Judge - 10.5 (8 seconds start; E9.0)
CS - 12 (J6.5 E7.5)
HW - 13.5 (30 seconds start; J5.0 E6.0)
CS - 15 (J3.5 E4.5 HW28.5)
HP Dump - 16.5 (assuuming no DP Procs; J1.0 E3.0 HW27)
consecration?
CS - 19.5 (J off cd E1.5 HW25.5)
Judge
CS
Exor
CS
HP dump (HW at 18 abd J and E and Cons are all still on cd, got tired of typing)
CS
nothing can go here as all are still on CD

of course this could also lead to conscrations CD removal or REALLY shortened.

They have changed cooldowns a bit. Judgment is now 10, exorcism is also 10, and holy wrath is 15.

Here are a couple posts from Blizzard that confirm what I've been saying this entire thread:

The reason is that we think it's bad gameplay when players have absolutely no gaps in their rotation.

We want all of the classes to have the occasional GCD with nothing going on.

And here's Blizzard talking why a 3 second cooldown ability is bad:

The 3 sec Bloodthirst cooldown definitely makes us nervous, because it leaves so few opportunities to do anything else in the rotation, so we're just going to have to watch it.

And 3 second crusader strike that works off a limited resource pool (mana) and is even more mandatory than blood thirst for the HP generation doesn't make you nervous? Wake up Blizzard!

[Kaneex]

3 second CS makes the ret rotation flow better and there are still gaps in the rotation with it. If CS were returned to a 4 second CD, there would be an excessive amount of gaps.

The only way a 4 sec CS would work is if the CD on other abilities are reduced.

[Alenko]

They have changed cooldowns a bit. Judgment is now 10, exorcism is also 10, and holy wrath is 15.

Here are a couple posts from Blizzard that confirm what I've been saying this entire thread:



And here's Blizzard talking why a 3 second cooldown ability is bad:


And 3 second crusader strike that works off a limited resource pool (mana) and is even more mandatory than blood thirst for the HP generation doesn't make you nervous? Wake up Blizzard!

on the three second CS compared to 3 second Bloodthirst is that CS also our primary generator of HP's (secondary resource) so its improtant that it be 3 seconds. think about it like this, in a 600 second fight (easy to do with 3 and 4) you generate 200 HPs from CS, if it were 4 seconds (say)you would generate 150 hps, thats a 25% loss in the number of HP generated just by increasing the CD by 1 second. now of course this doesn't include use of Zealotry.