Ret rotation in Cata....sigh

[Samius]

My biggest fears atm is that blizzard either:
(a) Make our rotation so tedious it's as annoying to play as an Enhance Shaman
or
(b) Make it relatively easy (like rogues) but output really shit damage.

A very tight "rotation" that affects our dps heavy if we miss something (like feral druids) will not work for us, We are a heavy utility, thats our trademark and thats one of the main things I love about the class.

I love seals, I miss when seals where consumed on Judgement (hated the 3min and 10min variations). It was a "powerup>nuke" and really made seal twisting part of the game. Yeah the mana usage was dumb, but a super easy resolution to that is *gasp* 0mana use to cast any seal.

Holy power "combo points" and the RNG of it generating at random speeds, is going to be very irritating.

All that aside, if blizzard give us some nice damage potential to make up for this mess. Then things will be ok I guess.

~Dega

---------- Post added 2010-08-04 at 07:17 PM ----------

This from a blue:

Seals do way too much damage on live and in Cataclysm. We haven't worried about that damage yet because we're still working out a basic rotation that feels good. We also are mindful that deemphasizing white attacks of any kind risks making haste less attractive.

Maybe they are planning to cut down seal damage?

At first sight of reading this a lil whille ago, I was like "OMG, THEY ARE NERFING OUR DMG?!?!"
I'll admit, we are doing good dmg atm, but its based on gear; Tiny Abom, AMAZING T10 Bonuses, Shadowmourne?Bryntroll?.

Given that they are proposing a more challenging rotation, then on the other hand talking about dmg nerfs on top of the fact we will inevitably be having to give up our nice proc T10 gears. Scary to say the least.

I just hope I am reading it wrong. Maybe they plan other skills to be making up for the seal dmg loss? /shrug.

[jobdone]

My biggest fears atm is that blizzard either:
(a) Make our rotation so tedious it's as annoying to play as an Enhance Shaman

Annoying as in you have to look at what your doing?

[Minimach]

I just hope I am reading it wrong. Maybe they plan other skills to be making up for the seal dmg loss? /shrug.

They've said that in quite a few blue posts that I remember seeing. They want to nerf auto damage (seals, auto attacks, posions, etc) and increase skill/ability damage to help seperate some of the good and bad players

[Munk]

Annoying as in you have to look at what your doing?

No more like able to be played with the wheel on your mouse. I enjoy the frantic nature of playing a ret pally well. I just hope the changes allow for a higher skillcap and ultimately better end damage for those able to play it well.

[dan.tabris]

When they say "we want to reduce ret's seal damage," they pretty clearly mean that they feel that seals are making up too high a proportion of our overall damage.

[Ronark]

When they say "we want to reduce ret's seal damage," they pretty clearly mean that they feel that seals are making up too high a proportion of our overall damage.

Well obviously, since somethings the Seal damage is 18-25% of your total damage done.

[Myrlae]

It's sounding better than facerolling your keyboard for success.

Isn't there a video of a ret pala who smashes his face on his keyboard and still doing like 5k dps?

[mape1992]

Face facts, you're faceroll!
- Appreciate Blizzard bringing some complexity into your gameplay.

[Samius]

Annoying as in you have to look at what your doing?

No, annoying as in......

Refresh this, refresh that, drop this totem, drop that totem, watch this proc, watch that proc. Then about 10 keys to juggle constantly + about 3 CD's?. It's rather irritating sir, the lack of enh shamans out there should be a testimony to that. Granted messing up the rotation doesn't hurt your dps as much as some classes. Nobody wants to tunnel vision on their action bars, I don't care how "pro" you think you are.

PS:
Don't get me wrong, I am by no means saying Paladins need to stay easy as hell. But there is a line that needs to be drawn. From what I have seen, the current setup with holy power, is just inside that threshold.
I prefer my main challenge to be in the new boss raid encounters and mechanics. Its much more dynamic and ever changing.

[Pantelija]

http://cata.wowhead.com/spell=85804

This pretty much indicates the mentality Blizzard has when designing Cataclysm ret pvp. By which I mean that they're completely batshit insane. If people thought that they were easily kited and CC'd in WotLK, they're going to LOVE Cataclysm.

Yeah, I know it's still in beta... but they're going to have to change so much in order to make us even close to viable.

Close to viable ? Are u in beta or u just QQ to pass some time ?

I am in beta and atm Rets are doing more than fine , ret is a bit more complex than live and u got some cool stuff to work on

At beta u need to think what spell to cast in a situation not just smash button when they come off CD (FCFS)

[Flaks]

My biggest fears atm is that blizzard either:
(a) Make our rotation so tedious it's as annoying to play as an Enhance Shaman
or
(b) Make it relatively easy (like rogues) but output really shit damage.

A very tight "rotation" that affects our dps heavy if we miss something (like feral druids) will not work for us, We are a heavy utility, thats our trademark and thats one of the main things I love about the class.

I love seals, I miss when seals where consumed on Judgement (hated the 3min and 10min variations). It was a "powerup>nuke" and really made seal twisting part of the game. Yeah the mana usage was dumb, but a super easy resolution to that is *gasp* 0mana use to cast any seal.

Holy power "combo points" and the RNG of it generating at random speeds, is going to be very irritating.

All that aside, if blizzard give us some nice damage potential to make up for this mess. Then things will be ok I guess.

~Dega

---------- Post added 2010-08-04 at 07:17 PM ----------



At first sight of reading this a lil whille ago, I was like "OMG, THEY ARE NERFING OUR DMG?!?!"
I'll admit, we are doing good dmg atm, but its based on gear; Tiny Abom, AMAZING T10 Bonuses, Shadowmourne?Bryntroll?.

Given that they are proposing a more challenging rotation, then on the other hand talking about dmg nerfs on top of the fact we will inevitably be having to give up our nice proc T10 gears. Scary to say the least.

I just hope I am reading it wrong. Maybe they plan other skills to be making up for the seal dmg loss? /shrug.

You guys seem to be in the same place warriors were about 4 beta builds ago when blizzard continually talked about removing or 'fixing' warrior rotations with no compensation in sight. That said, I believe you should take this as an example of Blizzard knowing what they're doing but not revealing it just yet.

They've obviously got something more in store. I'm betting when the digits get tweaked, seals and poisons will be really low on pally's and rogue's damage and attacks like templar's verdict and envenom will be number one or two and will probably hit so ridiculously hard that they'll need to be nerfed (after the game goes live most probably).

Actually, if I remember correctly, I remember them saying exactly what I said earlier for rogues. But seeing as how the two classes' damage systems seem to be very similar now I'd imagine the blue post (that I cba to post) extends to pallies as well.

Oh and I don't mean you guys should stop QQ by all of this. If anything you should raise your voice's louder and make sure you're heard so Blizzard doesn't continue on a path that pallies as a whole wouldn't prefer.

[dan.tabris]

Well obviously, since somethings the Seal damage is 18-25% of your total damage done.

My point is that it does not follow from Blizzard's statement that they plan to nerf our overall damage. They merely wish to adjust the percentage of seal damage vs. everything else.

[Requital]

Close to viable ? Are u in beta or u just QQ to pass some time ?

I am in beta and atm Rets are doing more than fine , ret is a bit more complex than live and u got some cool stuff to work on

At beta u need to think what spell to cast in a situation not just smash button when they come off CD (FCFS)

I'm not sure what beta you are in but Ret is far from more complex it's practically the same 3 CS then TV use Zealotry on boss burns with Inq it's not hard or complex what might make it complex would be if different stacks of Holy Power affected damage from Seals because then you would really have to pay attention but atm not so much.

[Creed86]

Ret being complex? lol....

[Elanale]

We haven't gotten to the part of the beta where they fine tune damage. If you read "they're reducing seal damage" and coming away with "they're nerfing our DPS" then you're... ugh. You are why reading the Paladin forums is so painful. Think with your brain meats, Paladins.

Like that guy who recently posted the math on why the current incarnation of TV favors using it with one charge of HP. Way to waste three minutes of everybody's time, guy! Again: they're NOT balancing numbers right now, they're still deciding what the rotation is even going to look like. They've said that they're not balancing numbers yet many times. We're not even 85 yet, people! We're wearing a blend of leveling gear and tier 10, and talent trees are still receiving big changes at a regular pace.

If you're stressing about DPS right now you're just not getting it, and you probably never will.

[dan.tabris]

I'm not sure what beta you are in but Ret is far from more complex it's practically the same 3 CS then TV use Zealotry on boss burns with Inq it's not hard or complex what might make it complex would be if different stacks of Holy Power affected damage from Seals because then you would really have to pay attention but atm not so much.

If juggling a 30-sec self buff, building and releasing Holy Power, and managing a priority system for filler attacks is not complex by your estimation, then what in WoW meets your criteria?

[Daos]

Like that guy who recently posted the math on why the current incarnation of TV favors using it with one charge of HP. Way to waste three minutes of everybody's time, guy! Again: they're NOT balancing numbers right now, they're still deciding what the rotation is even going to look like. They've said that they're not balancing numbers yet many times. We're not even 85 yet, people! We're wearing a blend of leveling gear and tier 10, and talent trees are still receiving big changes at a regular pace.

While I agree that the actual numbers aren't worth stressing over yet, since they aren't done, I am a bit concerned about our situation with regard to haste. The only thing on Beta that is resource-related and that Haste provides any meaningful increase to is the GCD of our spell attacks and (theoretically) the tick rate of Consecration, since we don't really have any way to burn off the additional mana from Judgements of the Wise. Even if we got to a point where we could fit 2 spell attacks in between a Crusader Strike cooldown, that has 2 major flaws: 1) Haste provides no resource-oriented benefits prior to that point, and 2) We would run out of abilities to cast between 3-stack Verdicts.

[Ronark]

While I agree that the actual numbers aren't worth stressing over yet, since they aren't done, I am a bit concerned about our situation with regard to haste. The only thing on Beta that is resource-related and that Haste provides any meaningful increase to is the GCD of our spell attacks and (theoretically) the tick rate of Consecration, since we don't really have any way to burn off the additional mana from Judgements of the Wise. Even if we got to a point where we could fit 2 spell attacks in between a Crusader Strike cooldown, that has 2 major flaws: 1) Haste provides no resource-oriented benefits prior to that point, and 2) We would run out of abilities to cast between 3-stack Verdicts.

Haste also reduces the time between ticks of SoT ticks as well.

[Joels]

You could tie them onto a shared cooldown, like shock spells for shamans. Strike of Truth could stack Censure much like the seal does.

So, if seals were turned into strikes.. would Vengeance/corruption become something like a sunder armor, or a bears lacerate?
I like the idea though, just throw them off the GCD and its all good.

[rabbimojo]

While I agree that the actual numbers aren't worth stressing over yet, since they aren't done, I am a bit concerned about our situation with regard to haste. The only thing on Beta that is resource-related and that Haste provides any meaningful increase to is the GCD of our spell attacks and (theoretically) the tick rate of Consecration, since we don't really have any way to burn off the additional mana from Judgements of the Wise. Even if we got to a point where we could fit 2 spell attacks in between a Crusader Strike cooldown, that has 2 major flaws: 1) Haste provides no resource-oriented benefits prior to that point, and 2) We would run out of abilities to cast between 3-stack Verdicts.

Well, GC did mention (when talking about adjusting relative seal damage) that they were concerned that would further devalue haste.
So, it's on the radar at least.