Advice requested

[Maeco]

Hello folks,

I would like some advice regarding social raiding and encouragement tips/tricks/techniques.

The situation, I am in a social guild that occassionally raids ICC10 (normal). When you have optained various items and have an average item level of 232 or higher you are ready to be invited into ICC raids. The guild has wide variety of people regarding activity, skill and hardcoreness.

The problem, we are still working on fully clearing ICC. The reason it is taking this long is because of the skill level of various people we bring. Some people have the gear, but their performance don't seem to be meeting the expectations, this rings especially true for a few dpsers. We have dpsers clad in 251-ilvl and higher gear and with the 30% buff only seem to touch the end of the 4k dps range. In my opinion this is pretty low.

Another issue I see every raid is that a large amount of people don't seem to react to or react to slow to dynamic and random events. If an unexpected add spawns that needs to be killed asap, dps ignore it completely and just tunnelvision on the boss.

If I compare our guild raids with random ICC pugs, the pugs tend to perform 20% to 50% more efficient/better.


I am looking for a solution that works for us as a social guild. Unacceptable solution are:
- Not bringing the 'bad' players anymore (we got activity problems as we are).
- Force any addition 'hard' rules on everyone, like forcing players to adopt new gems and rotations.
- Force them to visit sites like Elitish Jerks and use the new theories explained there.
- Me leaving the guild for another (I am trying to solve a guild problem, not avoiding it).

The keyword is forcing; all that we do is completely optional. If I knew how to positively stimulate the 'bad' players to improve their performance it would great. I wonder if anyone had been in similar scenario and wants to share his experience at this.


Kind regards,

Maeco

[Memory]

If people don't DPS the boss shard the DPS drops, and if healers stand in fire shard the healer drops.

This one would be terrible. Really, don't do something like that. You can use Loot Council and give priority to good players, but sharding something that somebody needs... ugh... It's bad and most people would be unlikely to accept it.

Ah, well, nevermind, I deleted the rest of my comment, you don't wanna take drastic measures anyway. But one thing I will say: you're unlikely to make anybody good if your guildies are averagely bad, so either leave or accept you can merely patch it up and nothing big will ever change.

[Mammoth]

Make sure you have 3 people for every 2 raid spots. When theres a guy eager to take your spot people will pay attention. I normally (with 25man so its easier) have 1 permanant member of each class and 2 others of that class that rotate. If the permanant member slacks or is beaten by one of the other 2 then I swap them.

In my experience loot or dkp punishment/rewards only work for a little while, once they have their loot they don't care.

[Maeco]

Thanks for the responses so far,

Perhaps I should describe the situation further, since some suggestions don't really apply. The core of the guild is pretty close (in social terms) and have been together since early vanilla WoW.

We communicate with chatting, but occassionally we request everyone to join WoW voice-chat so they can listen to direction given during combat (or just to hear the boss tactics). We don't yell or scream and we only kick members only if there is no other way (it happens only once or twice a year, with trials).

To put it very simple what I desire, is for everyone that joins our raids is to give a shit about his own performance. For as it stands now, The Lich King' Defile ability will cause us a lot of trouble because our raiders tend to tunnelvision a lot.

[Memory]

You don't teach kids not to stick their hands into the burners on the stove by telling them not to do it in a sweet voice over and over. You tell them not to touch the flames a few times and then let them touch it if they're so damned eager to touch it. They learn themselves that they should have listened as well as learning not to touch fire again.

Sure, I agree, but measures like the one you suggested are unlikely to be perceived as fair and therefore accepted by anybody in the guild; they might be eventually 'right' but I can tell you that they won't be perceived as such: I would consider it as a politically wrong decision for the leadership. In the end you should just get rid of some people instead of sharding their loot.

[jaimelannister]

If people won't do what they're supposed to do and prefer to mindlessly nuke the boss instead of the adds or running out of fire, either you start punishing them by not letting them raid or taking away their loot until they start doing the correct things. There's really no other way to get someone to care about their performance in a video game otherwise.

Yeah, this is pretty accurate.

Human beings respond to different stimuli in different ways, but reward/punishment is generally the most effective, especially for a quick fix. You also have to understand that some human beings just don't care about being competitive, and therefore their motivation to improve at the game is near zero, especially if there are no consequences.

You can try explaining to them that there are 9 other people relying on their performance, and that in order to not let the rest of the group down, they need to step up. Problem here is if half the raid is under-performing (which seems to be the situation you describe), it is likely that each under-performing member thinks they are doing "just fine" and that it's that other guy's fault.

Have you tried calling people out by name? A little public humiliation can go a long way, and as the guild leader you can choose to do it with as little harshness as possible. For the DPS, do some research to determine what good average DPS numbers are for each fight and let people know how much they are behind by. Maybe you can shame them into performing better.

[Spartanoble]

why is asking them to look on Elist Jerks an unnaceptable solution that's the best option for me or atleast look on MMO Champion

[Tmad]

Unacceptable solution are:

- Force any addition 'hard' rules on everyone, like forcing players to adopt new gems and rotations.
- Force them to visit sites like Elitish Jerks and use the new theories explained there.

So what you're saying is that you don't want them to improve. If you have a resto shammy in the guild that is stacking agility gems, you'll just let him come in your raids ? Or if you have a rogue that's using Eviscerate with one combo point, or a warrior stacking agility gems. Proper gems and rotations should be used correctly by ANYONE, even if he's raiding naxx10 with icc25 gear. If you won't take this matter into your own hands, and tell each player what gems to change, how to use the rotation properly, you should be grateful if you can clear VoA.

[Deleted]

I used to be in a similar situation. I'm not the kind of person who can be tough with people to help them to perform better, When my old GM tries, he just ends up in Ragemode with a lot of pissed off guildies and no one actually doing any better. The core of the guild were brilliant players but the numbers just didn't work.

Unfortunately, Unless you get a little tough with them, nothing is going to change and they are going to slack. Also, you're right, my boomkin with 245/251 gear and get 8k dps on Saurfang 10 HC (25% buff), so 4k dps with 30% buff is still pretty slacky, even with TotC gear.

I understand that you may be afraid of getting to tough, to the point where guildies start leaving or you generally anger a lot of your members over tactic and reaction issues but someone has got to do it, it's a careful balance but if your players are just pottering around the arena and getting Mind Control'd etc, they're just ruining the experience for other players.

In short, I agree 100% with Synthaxx, he's made the same points as I was trying to make except he laid them out better and with more experience.

[Eruanne]

The thing is, hon, and this is a bottom line really; you can't make people care about their performance. Unless THEY want to improve there is nothing really you can do or say to make them. So the only thing you can REALLY attempt that MAY yield the result you desire is to hold a mandatory guild meeting and just flat out say how you feel, "look guys, we're not doing well and as much as I don't want to force anything upon you, you need to realize that there are some things you have to work on or we will never get to where we want to go".

If the meeting gets taken to heart - and technically it should, because as you said, you seem to be a very close-knit group - then things will get better on their own. Otherwise, you'll just have to accept the fact that it'll be this way forever or leave.

I'm sorry to sound so final but I have been through this more times than I can count and have had my heart broken by many guilds after everything that happened and that we've been through and this is a realization that I came upon the hard, painful way - I'm trying to spare that way for you.

[Maeco]

Yeah, this is pretty accurate.

Human beings respond to different stimuli in different ways, but reward/punishment is generally the most effective, especially for a quick fix. You also have to understand that some human beings just don't care about being competitive, and therefore their motivation to improve at the game is near zero, especially if there are no consequences.

You can try explaining to them that there are 9 other people relying on their performance, and that in order to not let the rest of the group down, they need to step up. Problem here is if half the raid is under-performing (which seems to be the situation you describe), it is likely that each under-performing member thinks they are doing "just fine" and that it's that other guy's fault.

Have you tried calling people out by name? A little public humiliation can go a long way, and as the guild leader you can choose to do it with as little harshness as possible. For the DPS, do some research to determine what good average DPS numbers are for each fight and let people know how much they are behind by. Maybe you can shame them into performing better.

Yes, its about half the raid not performing right and strangely enough it are the same people. I don't know what goes through their head at those wipe nights, but I don't think they evaluate their own performance.

I have tried calling them by their names, but the uproar and anger was so massive that it scared me and didn't log for 2 weeks. Oh and I am not the guild leader, the GL is actually a great guy that does anything to make it work and keep everyone happy, however he has lines he is unwilling to cross. I asked him not to bring to certain (core-)players for a progress night, but we had no acceptable alternatives so they got taken anyway (activity issue).

Others also tried to shaming them with linking recounts reports, but it is just giggled away.

why is asking them to look on Elist Jerks an unnaceptable solution that's the best option for me or atleast look on MMO Champion

I tried it a few times, but it are only the good players that actually visit the site.

So what you're saying is that you don't want them to improve. If you have a resto shammy in the guild that is stacking agility gems, you'll just let him come in your raids ? Or if you have a rogue that's using Eviscerate with one combo point, or a warrior stacking agility gems. Proper gems and rotations should be used correctly by ANYONE, even if he's raiding naxx10 with icc25 gear. If you won't take this matter into your own hands, and tell each player what gems to change, how to use the rotation properly, you should be grateful if you can clear VoA.

I can understand how this all looks in the eyes of a common MMO-Champion visitor. I do want them to improve, but totally out of their own incentive. Wrong gemming or gearing issues are taken care off, its just that sub-optimal gemming or wrong secondary stat stacking can be an issue. We have a elemental shaman that stacks only spellpower, but refuses to go for Haste at all.

---------- Post added 2010-08-04 at 04:26 PM ----------

The thing is, hon, and this is a bottom line really; you can't make people care about their performance. Unless THEY want to improve there is nothing really you can do or say to make them. So the only thing you can REALLY attempt that MAY yield the result you desire is to hold a mandatory guild meeting and just flat out say how you feel, "look guys, we're not doing well and as much as I don't want to force anything upon you, you need to realize that there are some things you have to work on or we will never get to where we want to go".

If the meeting gets taken to heart - and technically it should, because as you said, you seem to be a very close-knit group - then things will get better on their own. Otherwise, you'll just have to accept the fact that it'll be this way forever or leave.

I'm sorry to sound so final but I have been through this more times than I can count and have had my heart broken by many guilds after everything that happened and that we've been through and this is a realization that I came upon the hard, painful way - I'm trying to spare that way for you.

I think this approach is my best hope then, perhaps one or two more progress nights and evaluate them purely on player performance.

Thanks for the input everyone, much appreciated!

[Spartanoble]

also you need to get rid of the bad players it'll be easy to recruit some nice players if you have a website and a /2 macro . wowstead.com is a good guild website service and I like it much you need players that will listen to you if you can't get them to go on Elist Jerks / MMO Champ for 5 minutes they've not got much intelligence . Best of luck

[loveshack]

Kick the bads that dont fallow directions, because if youre like me, you wouldnt want some shitface wasting your or anyone elses time.

[Myrrar]

Amazing how people don't even read his whole post.

There is no way to make people play better with the restrictions you are putting on yourself. A way to make people play their class better is for them to play their class better. Without them looking at Ej, blogs, forums, or anything else their gear rotation, along with everything is probably very wrong. If people aren't hitting 4k with 30% they have to be doing pretty much everything wrong if they aren't in heroic epics. If they have tunnel vision as bad as you say, you can't carry them if they don't care. On vent you can say move from defile all you want, but if they don't move and you guys go "rainbow-happy-it's ok you suck" on them they aren't going to get better.

You want them to care. If you want to stay in the guild you will just have to accept those who don't care aren't going to if you don't push them. If they have no consequences, they won't change. Some people like to play to be the best. Some people like to play just to play. Some people, if you let them be terrible, they aren't going to change. In their eyes, why put in effort if they get to come and get free gear anyway.

They have to have incentive to be better. Like said, the boundaries you have put on it, accept that you won't be going anywhere anytime soon since you don't want to leave.

[LeperHerring]

Sounds like a raid leading problem to me. If you have a dps with 251 ilvl doing 4k dps it means they stopped attacking. People do that when they're confused about what to do, they are confused because they don't know the fight or the tactics, which means the raid leader didn't explain it correctly. Chronically low raid dps can also mean that your tactics are wrong and do not allow people to optimize their damage.

The same goes for "dynamic" or "random" events, it's the job of the raid leader to call them out and instruct people to react. It's also the raid leader's job to explain the random things that might happen so that people know to expect them and know what to do when they occur.

[Stannislaus]

Tell your guild members to read this post. Then ask them a question about it to see if they did.

[Maeco]

Thanks for all the input guys and girls, it is a lot clearer what I can do to improve our odds. Lucky I don't have to be booman, I just need to present the facts in unequivocal ways to the lesser players and state that that is the reason why they have to sit out or leave the raid for progress bosses (just Sindragosa and Lich King in our case).

Perhaps if I post a raiding spec for each class and role on our forum, I still give the lesser players a chance and reference to improve without putting them out of game. I think this is the fairest and most social way to solve the issue.

[LeperHerring]

Trying to force or enforce anything is a complete waste of time. "Presenting the facts in unequivocal was to the lesser players" is a waste of time, they will get mad when you sit them out and they will create drama and they will hate you for it no matter how logical you think you are. Posting raiding specs for each class and role is a waste of time; if they wanted to learn those things they could've just looked them up online. Dumping "lesser players" is a waste of time since they are most certainly not going to learn anything or improve if they're not even in the raid.

People only do what they want to do. You want them to improve? Guess what, they don't give a crap what you want. You can assume that the people who raid with you want to kill bosses, but they also want to not wipe. Nobody wants to be a crappy player, but they also want to do other things than read stuff online. The whole job of raid leading is to get as much done as while the players' want of killing bosses is greater than their want of not wiping anymore.

Instead of trying to tell people to do anything you must ask them to do things ("please") and explain exactly why doing those things will get them what they want. If you're wiping because nobody switched to dps adds, you tell the raid that "we wiped because the adds didn't die fast enough, we have the dps so please switch to the adds faster and we can easily kill this boss".

I still maintain that this is primarily a raid leadership problem. With the 30% buff, pretty much any half decently geared raid can clear icc10 if properly lead. Most certainly the only real improvement you're going to see is if the raid leader puts in more effort.

[Twoflower]

Either :

Do all the work. Research their class for them. Lead them trough the instance. Hold their hand. Every move. If anything goes wrong, you can be sure that they will not be able to handle it on their own.

Or :

Tell them to shape up. Dont raid with scrubs. Take them if the performance is right, and if it is not, tell them that you would rather go with a random guy who puts in effort. Being a "social" guild is no excuse for slacking around. 4k dps with the 30% buff is regularly done by people without A SINGLE epic item ( see the raiding in blues thread ). There is realy NO excuse for this kind of slacking.