Cataclysm: Return of the hybrid feral druid?

[exochaft]

So let me get this right, you would rather have the energy in the event you have to inervate or B rez someone than have the movement speed to get someone off the bone spike in H LM, get to the Raging spirits or Valk's quicker on LK, get from ooze to PP quicker, ect ect ect, you really might want to re-think your idea. One of a Feral Druids greatest strengths as a dps is the ability to move from boss to adds to boss as quickly as possible.

Well, this is more in line with Furor and Feral Swiftness together, but a mechanic we haven't seen in a while in raids is targeted or AoE slows/snares (some of which had a nasty component of damage or debuff along with the snare/slow). What's the druid solution for this? Shapeshift! It's pretty commonplace in PvP, but a lost skill in PvE. Combination of Furor and Feral Swiftness really enables feral druid's strength of mobility (along with Feral Charge and eventually Skull Bash, but there are times when those abilities do NOT want to be used on a whim... I've seen feral druids kittycharge Sindragosa only to be punted across the room). I should also note that shapeshifting debuffs is commonplace even for druid tanks.

[ELEDIN]

Well, this is more in line with Furor and Feral Swiftness together, but a mechanic we haven't seen in a while in raids is targeted or AoE slows/snares (some of which had a nasty component of damage or debuff along with the snare/slow). What's the druid solution for this? Shapeshift! It's pretty commonplace in PvP, but a lost skill in PvE. Combination of Furor and Feral Swiftness really enables feral druid's strength of mobility (along with Feral Charge and eventually Skull Bash, but there are times when those abilities do NOT want to be used on a whim... I've seen feral druids kittycharge Sindragosa only to be punted across the room). I should also note that shapeshifting debuffs is commonplace even for druid tanks.

you probably dont know the macro that you can use shapesifting without changing your form(no benefit from furor on this macro but remove all the snares-root effects)!
As for decurse i never decurse on feral spec for obvious reasons and nobady ask me to cause it so logic that it isnt my job as feral. As balance its ok but as feral only people with no idea will ask this thing.
As for brez and inervate im the last druid my quild ask me to do the rez or inervate cause they want my dps on boss, expect if im the only one

[exochaft]

you probably dont know the macro that you can use shapesifting without changing your form(no benefit from furor on this macro but remove all the snares-root effects)!
As for decurse i never decurse on feral spec for obvious reasons and nobady ask me to cause it so logic that it isnt my job as feral. As balance its ok but as feral only people with no idea will ask this thing.
As for brez and inervate im the last druid my quild ask me to do the rez or inervate cause they want my dps on boss, expect if im the only one

LoL, my shapeshifting macro is actually a relic from the BC days, I just never updated the syntax (when they changed how the game checks forms/auras) because it still works for shifting into any form depending on the mod keys I setup. I kept it around for when I was kitty spec for PowerShifting for extra energy, but I still use it over the default Blizz shapeshifting buttons.

*edit* I was nice enough to log in and copy it for you:
/cancelform
/cast [nomodifier] Cat Form; [modifier:shift] Dire Bear Form


The "obvious reasons" I see from your posts are that you're not really a team player. To what degree, I cannot say, I don't raid with you.

However, I can shed some light on my raiding experience and the people I work with. Personally, if I can Innervate/B-rez/Decurse, I have no problems with it... heck, some of the people I used to raid with back in BC knew I could be the top decurser on Archimonde and still make top 5 DPS/damage. After years of doing it, it's common nature to know how to minimized the effect on my DPS or tanking survivability to perform a utility act.

Unfortunately, due to my server population, team players are really hard to find. On decurse fights, it's sometimes pulling teeth to get a mage/resto shaman/druid to decurse... why? The mages say "I need to focus on my DPS, someone else do it," the resto shamans say "I'm busying healing, someone else do it," the moonkins/resto druids say "I'm busy healing and/or DPSing, someone else do it." Where do you draw the line? Is your personal DPS more important than a mage or moonkin's DPS? If everyone carries the same mentality that you carry, no one will decurse or innervate or B-rez... what separates good players from great players is when they can do something but not have to be asked to do it, especially when it comes to group synergy.

As a kitty, it's pretty easy to toss out an Innervate or decurse, you lose 1 GCD in kitty... if you pop out of kitty form at low energy, you won't lose any energy and maybe lose 1-2 melee auto attacks tops. B-rez can be a little bit trickier depending on where the body is, but if I can plan out a b-rez while actively tanking and not risk my survivability, it cannot be that hard for a feral druid (or a resto/moonkin for that matter). Unless you're hitting enrage timers due to lack of DPS, valuing your own DPS over the utility of a decurse/innervate isn't the way to go (b-rez, too, unless the raid is wiping at 10-20k HP).

[Vorticose]

I think the thread title / OP has pretty much been defeated:
* Yes you can make an okay hybrid spec, just like you could for all of WotLK.
* There's no reason to spec sub-optimally if respec cost stays at 50g.
* Blizzard have suggested it's not their design, meaning changes will further squelch this idea.

[Paskgotsheal]

I think the thread title / OP has pretty much been defeated:
* Yes you can make an okay hybrid spec, just like you could for all of WotLK.
* There's no reason to spec sub-optimally if respec cost stays at 50g.
* Blizzard have suggested it's not their design, meaning changes will further squelch this idea.

The whole point was to prove it's much more viable then wotlk(it is). You lose a LOT less in this build then you do currently in a hybrid build. You could not get all the DPS talents and tank talents in wotlk, you can in cata sans master shape shifter which is lacking hard right now.

Another point is that if you can do three things instead of two (tank dps and heal) you're going to benefit a raid a lot more. Especially when a lot of people will be in ten man raiding guilds.

[Cortano]

Furor is a DPS-increasing talent

I see it a lot more as a PvP talent; you end up shifting out a lot more in arena, either to break snares, toss an instant heal or crowd control, convert to bear for a charge / stun combo. Like all PvP talents, it can be useful in PvE; I suspect a feral with nuturing instinct has saved the day more than a couple times with a well timed group heal. Its an ok talent, but one that can find itself on the chopping block without a lot of pain for a dedicated raider.

[ELEDIN]

LoL, my shapeshifting macro is actually a relic from the BC days, I just never updated the syntax (when they changed how the game checks forms/auras) because it still works for shifting into any form depending on the mod keys I setup. I kept it around for when I was kitty spec for PowerShifting for extra energy, but I still use it over the default Blizz shapeshifting buttons.

*edit* I was nice enough to log in and copy it for you:
/cancelform
/cast [nomodifier] Cat Form; [modifier:shift] Dire Bear Form


The "obvious reasons" I see from your posts are that you're not really a team player. To what degree, I cannot say, I don't raid with you.

However, I can shed some light on my raiding experience and the people I work with. Personally, if I can Innervate/B-rez/Decurse, I have no problems with it... heck, some of the people I used to raid with back in BC knew I could be the top decurser on Archimonde and still make top 5 DPS/damage. After years of doing it, it's common nature to know how to minimized the effect on my DPS or tanking survivability to perform a utility act.

Unfortunately, due to my server population, team players are really hard to find. On decurse fights, it's sometimes pulling teeth to get a mage/resto shaman/druid to decurse... why? The mages say "I need to focus on my DPS, someone else do it," the resto shamans say "I'm busying healing, someone else do it," the moonkins/resto druids say "I'm busy healing and/or DPSing, someone else do it." Where do you draw the line? Is your personal DPS more important than a mage or moonkin's DPS? If everyone carries the same mentality that you carry, no one will decurse or innervate or B-rez... what separates good players from great players is when they can do something but not have to be asked to do it, especially when it comes to group synergy.

As a kitty, it's pretty easy to toss out an Innervate or decurse, you lose 1 GCD in kitty... if you pop out of kitty form at low energy, you won't lose any energy and maybe lose 1-2 melee auto attacks tops. B-rez can be a little bit trickier depending on where the body is, but if I can plan out a b-rez while actively tanking and not risk my survivability, it cannot be that hard for a feral druid (or a resto/moonkin for that matter). Unless you're hitting enrage timers due to lack of DPS, valuing your own DPS over the utility of a decurse/innervate isn't the way to go (b-rez, too, unless the raid is wiping at 10-20k HP).

When i m playing moonkin i decurse without complaining when i play with mage i also decurse without coplaining when i play as resto druid or shammy decurse is also part of my job so i dont even ask dps to do my job, but when i play in cat spec i m not even thinking about it, it so logic and i dont undrstand your need to convince about something that its not my job.
It have nothing to do with team playing im prety good team player and i dont see your point about it if you want to take full furor go ahead but i dont feel to shift out of cat form for decursing people and i dont have to apologize about it.
I dont find any reason to full furor i prefer the speed.
Also they gona raise mana cost on every dispell mechanic so i dont want to shift on caster form decurse people and after that i dont have mana to return on cat form.

[Zulluhead]

When i m playing moonkin i decurse without complaining when i play with mage i also decurse without coplaining when i play as resto druid or shammy decurse is also part of my job so i dont even ask dps to do my job, but when i play in cat spec i m not even thinking about it, it so logic and i dont undrstand your need to convince about something that its not my job.
It have nothing to do with team playing im prety good team player and i dont see your point about it if you want to take full furor go ahead but i dont feel to shift out of cat form for decursing people and i dont have to apologize about it.
I dont find any reason to full furor i prefer the speed.
Also they gona raise mana cost on every dispell mechanic so i dont want to shift on caster form decurse people and after that i dont have mana to return on cat form.

The point is that with the Cata talent tree you can have a very decent Cat/Bear spec that will prove good for both situations, if you want fancy numbers go stick to a proper dps spec, however if you want to help your guild/pug even when not asked you'll go with a decent hybrid,if you REALLY where a team player as you say you are you would have picked up on that.

[Bluedynamite]

[snip]

As a kitty, it's pretty easy to toss out an Innervate or decurse, you lose 1 GCD in kitty... if you pop out of kitty form at low energy, you won't lose any energy and maybe lose 1-2 melee auto attacks tops. B-rez can be a little bit trickier depending on where the body is, but if I can plan out a b-rez while actively tanking and not risk my survivability, it cannot be that hard for a feral druid (or a resto/moonkin for that matter). Unless you're hitting enrage timers due to lack of DPS, valuing your own DPS over the utility of a decurse/innervate isn't the way to go (b-rez, too, unless the raid is wiping at 10-20k HP).

Thank you for being a real druid. /salute

[Vorticose]

Another point is that if you can do three things instead of two (tank dps and heal) you're going to benefit a raid a lot more.

I have my specs set up as Tank/Heal and I occasionally dps in the Tank spec. I always have my dps gear on me and glyphs/flasks in my inventory... but I can't remember the last time someone asked me to DPS. It can be hard to maintain three sets of gear at the same quality level, and there are often healers keen to DPS (so a tank can switch to heal and a healer switch to dps).

Having an 2nd spec is a HUGE boost to raid versatility.
Having a 3rd spec is not the same leap

A respec can be as quick as: Teleport:Moonglade -> 50g -> Hearth or get Summoned

[ELEDIN]

The point is that with the Cata talent tree you can have a very decent Cat/Bear spec that will prove good for both situations, if you want fancy numbers go stick to a proper dps spec, however if you want to help your guild/pug even when not asked you'll go with a decent hybrid,if you REALLY where a team player as you say you are you would have picked up on that.

If we have problem with decurse, that means we have not a healer that can decurse or mage or another druid ill change my spec to resto and we make one of our healers dps for that fight THATS a team player.
If we have healers that can decurse they do it so fast that you dont even think to do that job THATS also a team playing cause everyone doing their job as they supose to.
But if they ask for cat not even a moonkin or a mage, and the healer doesnt want to do the decurse thing that mean that i play in a team thats something is wrong and as far my expirience goes that groups never work.This is not a team playing.
If i need to battle rez i do it without any thought If i need to inervate a healer i ll do it without coplaining , if the tank dies i always change to bear to tank till our tank is battle rez for another druid, or i battle rez the tank and ill tank for some seconds the boss till the tank is full health and buffed and i like it but if they ask me to decurse in cat spec then something is wrong and thats NOT A TEAM PLAYING.

[exochaft]

If you want some food for thought in Cataclysm... let's talk about Remove Corruption.

The spell is leagues beyond what we've normally had, as in it remove 1 magic effect, 1 curse, and 1 or 3 poisons (subject to tooltip errors, hence the uncertainty). Now, the base cost of the spell is 17% base mana... compared to our Remove Curse that costs 8% of our base mana on live, that's a huge difference. That being said, mana is going to become a precious commodity in Cataclysm supposedly... as a class that can blow through their mana and regen it via crits with LotP, I'd say ferals would be much more beneficial using Remove Corruption than the other classes/specs that need their mana to operate. Even with current mechanics, feral druids are the least impacted by performing utility because we don't spam something every GCD as kittens unlike caster DPS... every class/spec using a GCD to decurse/b-rez/innervate will lose DPS or healing time, feral druids are no different and have no reasonable excuse to not help with decursing or any form of utility.

Where a lot of us are coming from is initiative: doing something when told vs. doing something because it should/can be done. Usually if someone had to tell me to do something, it could've been done a lot earlier or I should've done it already. The only reason a feral druid shouldn't help out the raid is if they're dead.

Maybe I'm just becoming a WoW antique at this point, I still have out all the classic Blizz UI raid frames and automatically decurse with a manual mouseover macro the second I see a curse/poison pop up (yes, even as a tank, within reason).

Anyways, more on topic, the hybrid specs I've seen would make using Remove Corruption as a feral a much larger DPS loss than it currently is w/o Furor.

[Cortano]

Anyways, more on topic, the hybrid specs I've seen would make using Remove Corruption as a feral a much larger DPS loss than it currently is w/o Furor.

If you spend a lot of time decursing, maybe try something like this:
http://www.wowtal.com/#k=-wUZGig7.9sm.druid

(basically swapping out improved feral charge, one of those more borderline abilities.)

I've got 3 points in furor, but that 3rd point is largely wasted. Feel free to put it in something more useful.

(The fact is most druids don't spend time decursing; that is usually better handled by other classes. I think if the difference is a slightly larger DPS loss when decursing: fair enough trade. That is going to have extremely minimal impact on most people's play styles.)