Agi + Haste vs. Str + AP - Retladin, Which one better?

[Fredzilla]

also the gloves for BiS ret (which you shouldn't get the tier gloves) are leather also.

Fleshrending Gauntlets aren't leather.

It's shocking how many people go spreading false information about what gear is better. There are general guidelines/BiS lists, but chances are you don't have all that gear. Use Rawr/some other spreadsheet. It will tell you exactly what is better for you and by how much. Do some work and you won't have to make threads like these where people come sounding like they know what they're talking about when in actuality many of them don't.

[Badpaladin]

The leather and mail alternatives to Fleshrending Gauntlets are slightly, as in 10 or so DPS less, worse than said gauntlets. In some gear sets they actually pull slightly ahead but for the most part Fleshrending guantlets are BiS.

[Nillo]

Duh the fail is hard in this thread again as it is always with agi vs str threads.

---------- Post added 2010-08-08 at 01:48 AM ----------

Simple explanation for those not getting the stat allocation between str and agi items-

Strength items will have 4 stats: str, stam, and 2 others. For the sake of this argument we'll just call them crit and haste, though it doesn't really matter what they are, simply that they are dps stats.
Out of 100 points allocated to this item, each stat (4 of them) will be given 25 points each. What you end up with is 75% of the points are spent in dps, and 25% in stam.

The agility counterpart has 5 stats: agi, stam, and 3 others (again, doesn't matter what they are really). It also has 100 point allocated to it (read- same ilvl as the str item). What you end up with this time is 80% of the points on dps stats (agi + the 3 others), 20% on stam.

This is wrong: As you can see with the Repu rings the secondary stats (crit+hit) are equal and even the small difference in stam explains why the agi ring has more stats.
The Agi ring has a higher amount of total Stat points and this is because the iLvl formula looks like this : Stat1^1.7 + Stat2^1.7 + Stat3^1.7 = iLvl or in other words it is not linear and the more of a single stat you get the higher the cost will get for adding another point of that stat, THAT'S why an item with 3 Stats (agi+ap+stam) is better than an item with only 2 Stats (Str/Stam)
Just look at the stats of the 2 rings: 107 stam + 99 str (total of 170.5) vs 84 stam + 88 agi + 135 ap (total of 192.5) => the total amount of stats on the agi ring is higher and it also has less stamina.


But to make it as simple as possible:
Leather = Plate > Mail (if you wear an equal amount of Str and Agi gear both of them will be pretty much equal, but as you usually wear more str items agi items tend to be better in most cases, the problem with mail items is just, that int isn't really that useful as a DPS stat)
Crit >= Haste >>>> ArP (in good gear haste is pretty much equal to crit)

---------- Post added 2010-08-08 at 01:58 AM ----------

The leather and mail alternatives to Fleshrending Gauntlets are slightly, as in 10 or so DPS less, worse than said gauntlets. In some gear sets they actually pull slightly ahead but for the most part Fleshrending guantlets are BiS.

Well there are no Leather 277 gloves with crit/haste and mail is a little worse than plate anyway :P

---------- Post added 2010-08-08 at 02:00 AM ----------

Retribution is all about Strength.
I don't know why you'd use Agi+haste, really. Agi may give a load of crit, but it doesn't give us AP. Next to that, Haste is a pretty useless stat for Paladins compared to Str, Crit (And obviously hit)
Just my 2cents.

My 2 cents are, that I guess you're not even doing 10k dps with the 30% buff .... (or in other words: none of your statements are correct)

[Xart]

Look at the stats. Also look at the stats you need etc. Blantly just saying Haste is best etc is not the way to go. You gotta balance your stats.

Also here you have a list of bis items currently in the game. But take into account these stats are counted togheter and not only the best ones.

h t t p : / / r e t r i b u t i o n p a l a d i n s . c o m / r e t r i b u t i o n - p a l a d i n s - b e s t - i n - s l o t - b i s - g e a r /

Take away the spaces since i'm not alloweed to post links yet :P

[Deleted]

Simple explanation for those not getting the stat allocation between str and agi items-

Strength items will have 4 stats: str, stam, and 2 others. For the sake of this argument we'll just call them crit and haste, though it doesn't really matter what they are, simply that they are dps stats.
Out of 100 points allocated to this item, each stat (4 of them) will be given 25 points each. What you end up with is 75% of the points are spent in dps, and 25% in stam.

The agility counterpart has 5 stats: agi, stam, and 3 others (again, doesn't matter what they are really). It also has 100 point allocated to it (read- same ilvl as the str item). What you end up with this time is 80% of the points on dps stats (agi + the 3 others), 20% on stam.

It may not seem by much, but in the highly inflated gear levels right now, that 5% difference is fairly large- which is why many leather and mail items are better than their strength counterparts.

That's not really how it works - if you simply compare the total itemisation of the two things. Good way to do it is to look at it in terms of gems. 20 str = 1 gem, 40ap = 1 gem, etc - add it up and you'll find the agi ring will not just have the same value of stats distributed differently - it will have more stats total.

Reason is simply the further you increase a stat, the more expensive (in "itemisation points") it becomes to increase it further, so it becomes "optimal" to increase a second stat. Best example of this goes right back to random green gear. xxx of Stamina: 20 Stamina. xxx of Strength: 20 Strength. xxx of the Bear: 13 Stamina, 13 Strength. The more you seperate stats on a piece of gear, the more stats you get.

[Badpaladin]

Look at the stats. Also look at the stats you need etc. Blantly just saying Haste is best etc is not the way to go. You gotta balance your stats.

Also here you have a list of bis items currently in the game. But take into account these stats are counted togheter and not only the best ones.

h t t p : / / r e t r i b u t i o n p a l a d i n s . c o m / r e t r i b u t i o n - p a l a d i n s - b e s t - i n - s l o t - b i s - g e a r /

Take away the spaces since i'm not alloweed to post links yet :P

I'm sure the guy who wrote that site had good intentions, but that site has a lot of incorrect information.

[leod]

crit/haste is good when soft capped
so sometimes you can drop AP for crit/haste
when soloing or trying training dummy its one story, when you are in icc with 30% buff + full raid buffs, you can ignore 1-2k of attack power on your gear and have more crit/haste instead.

agi items with haste give you both crit and haste, so its cool. You just need to figure out the minimum haste you need to improve your dps.

[Xart]

I'm sure the guy who wrote that site had good intentions, but that site has a lot of incorrect information.

Care to point it out? It's easy saying things are wrong but then you gotta say what it is.

No I'm not trying to prove you wrong. But since i have been looking some on that site i would like to see what i should overthink before doing.

[Badpaladin]

Keep in mind that I am an ass and an elitist one at that. I take into account experience, playtime, etc...but if there is a website with any wrong information stated, implied, or otherwise I become a prick and a nitpick about everything I find. I'm going to copy/paste this from another forum but I did my analysis of this site before:


1. States that hit comes with gear so you shouldn't gem for it if you're under the cap. You can't always count on gear though, so that's not correct advice.

2. States that Glyph of Consecration isn't a direct DPS increase, but it is -- 2 more ticks on ability that's not used on cooldown is a direct DPS increase, and greater than Exorcism's glyph to bat(let alone clash resolution and mana gains).

3. Suggests that buying HWT before 4pc t10 can be a better route, where it's not. HWT is not worth a 4% DPS upgrade by itself(over other trinkets) in single-target fights, and 4pc shines further in multiple target fights.

4. lists 23 haste as inferior to 22agi, when this is really not the case on some fights. 23 haste will pull ahead at time, although for the most part both enchants are within 1-2 DPS of each other. I wouldn't call one or othe other superior.

5. Contradicts himself in the FAQ and Gems section with regard to 10str/10crit.

6. Using potions of speed during heroism aren't always the best solution. You have to calculate your own haste rating at the time, then figure out your effective swings per 30 seconds with a speed pot and without a speed pot at 30% incrased haste. It's a rather complex thing, and most of the time the net benefit won't yield an extra swing during that time. Saying it's one way, as he did, isn't the right thing to do.

7. He suggests using AW after 5 stacks of vengeance and your libram are stacked. This is less DPS than using it at time 0 because doing it as he suggested has very little uptime of ICD procs where as using it at time 0 gives 100% uptime of ICD procs. He's suggesting a DPS loss.

8. Is implying clicking of in-combat abilities, such as Divine Plea.

9. Suggests holding off on AoE when blood beasts spawn. They have a 90% damage reduction, you won't pull aggro. Personally, I blow wings on them for more meter padding, but I'm a bit crazy.

10. Suggests using Seal of Command on slimes and Oozes on PP.

11. Melee cleave classes will beat ranged in Sindragosa due to Air Phase tomb cleave, he's suggesting it's backwards.

Overall it's a decent website but there's a lot of things I think that doesn't make it as good as a true discussion forum such as this, EJ or retpaladin.com. Typically, when one or two people compile information into one area there are lots of things left out that a forum covers far better over a lot of threads(this would mean you have to be active in them, but you get the idea).

[Donttakevurge]

What "feels good" more often than not is not good. Don't go by feelings if you're looking to optimize your character. Period.

To answer your question many, many leather and mail items are superior to their strength counterparts due to having more stats allocated on them.

feels good sitting on top of dmg meters.

[Deleted]

Care to point it out? It's easy saying things are wrong but then you gotta say what it is.

No I'm not trying to prove you wrong. But since i have been looking some on that site i would like to see what i should overthink before doing.

http://retributionpaladins.com/ret-p...em-pick-order/
he recommends to get HWT first, then go for 4PT10 with gloves (should be legs), takes the STR cloak and wants to take the plate gloves, chest and belt.
http://retributionpaladins.com/retri...ladin-talents/
he puts points in divine intellect.

i could probably go on a while...

[Badpaladin]

feels good sitting on top of dmg meters.

Me too!

Must admit though, frost mages and people doing less DPS than tanks does do a number on ranking for a few fights where people are bad.

[Xart]

Thanks for pointing it out. I haven't read all. Since I'm past emblem gearing long time ago. For the other parts mentioned I'm aware of it already since i have a brain to think it out for myself. But there is no need to be elitist. I don't brag about my arena ratings and look down on you. No need for you to do it either.

[Badpaladin]

Thanks for pointing it out. I haven't read all. Since I'm past emblem gearing long time ago. For the other parts mentioned I'm aware of it already since i have a brain to think it out for myself. But there is no need to be elitist. I don't brag about my arena ratings and look down on you. No need for you to do it either.

I think you're confusing being elitist with looking down on others =P

Personally I don't usually have an issue with somebody unless they post something obscenely wrong, make an effort to push something wrong, or are very hostile from the get go. That isn't to say I firmly believe that I am better than a vast majority of players, but it's not something I'm going to spout out in every post.