Arcane power....what?

[DirewolfX]

I think I'll elaborate some more:

If you're running out of mana on a fight, there are two things you can do to compensate:

1) Improve your mana efficiency by increasing damage per mana (accomplished simply by either increasing damage done per mana spent or by reducing mana spent per damage done). Damage done per mana spent is increased by hit, spell power and crit (not haste--haste is DPM neutral). Mana spent can only really be reduced by talents or an alternate rotation (ABx3 AM)--the latter requires some serious analysis (read: Rawr) to really figure out if it's the best in the long run. The former is really hard to lower (generally only through talents); although if you have Master of Elements, crit can essentially lower your mana per damage.

2) Increase your effective mana pool. This can be accomplished by either increasing your raw maximum mana or increasing your mana regen. In Cataclysm, it's likely that these will effectively be the same, since most regen mechanics are based on percentage of maximum mana. The only options here are likely to be whether or not we use mage armor.

You don't give up a DPM neutral ability like Arcane Power or haste (yes, haste is the same--it increases your DPS without affecting you DPM, thus you go OOM faster, but do the same overall damage). In the long run, if you're running out of mana, DPM neutral abilities like haste or Arcane Power will not improve overall damage like they do if you have mana to spare, but they won't hurt it either.

---------- Post added 2010-08-09 at 04:41 PM ----------

trust me, i've played this game a lot longer than most, probably yourself included. to give a rough time frame, when i started playing, arathi basin was about to come out (so right before patch 1.7).

Noob. I picked up my CE on release day. =p

[Swizzle]

Noob. I picked up my CE on release day. =p

in my defense, i was wayyyyyyyyy too into marijuana to really care about anything other than food and women.

[sicness]

you would never turn off AP if it was toggle-able. switch to mage armor and spec into all the mana replen talents, nothing beats a flat 20% damage increase, not even the arcane mastery.

Is there any info out yet about the more mana = more damage calculations? This would be interesting actually if it'd be more dps to activate arcane power until say 75% mana, though kind of complex.

[DirewolfX]

Masteries aren't in and the fine tuning has yet to really start (raid content isn't even available on beta--hell the level cap is still 83).

However, the theoretical AP toggle switch would still do just as much damage. It just accelerates the entire damage life cycle; it doesn't actually change the end results. The Arcane mastery makes it better to have high mana, but you would still use the magic AP toggle switch all the time, even as your mana dips. It's a bit harder to come up with a good example for that right now (especially since the math for the arcane mastery is not at all simple), but trust me... it does not impact the fact that you would use the magic AP toggle switch 100% of the time.

[Swizzle]

mana adept is 12% more damage at max mana, with it being increased by mastery rating. last i checked, 20 is a larger number than 12.

[sidphoenix]

well, we all know its just a typo. for me though, there is actually merit to trying to figure out solo if its worth it. obviously if fight<mana pool time, then duh 20% for free. since there is a pretty heavy mana income in a raid from various places, your mana per second drained is (mana out-mana in). increasing mana out by 20% tips that scale by a ton. if you are regenning half the mana you;'re using, then 100-50 is 50% of normal mana costs lost, while 20% increase turns that into 70%.
I don't disagree that no mage in their right mind would ever do anything other than turn on the DPS switch cuz mana income can be influenced(gimme innervate, seeds, armor, rotation, gear).

but as a purely academic consideration(or for fights like vezax before outgearing), 50vs70% mana is a 40% mana consideration for 20% damage. This makes it an actual question.

[JaoStar]

Well I for one hope that AP in its current form doesn't go live. Arcane for the most part doesn't look as complete as the other two trees.

[Meteos]

Ever think that Arcane would be balanced around having it on all the time?

[Baabinator]

Thank you, I completely agree

You can't agree on a fact.

Anyways: It would be pretty cool for Arcane Mages having their mana to watch.

But 20% arcane damage, i mean, wow! That really is alot of damage :S

And seeing how everything in WoW stacks multiplicatively, this stacks up to 123,6% damage with Arcane Tactics right away!

[Deleted]

No, 20% damage for 20% more mana would be on all the time. It doesn't hurt your mana efficiency but it does increase your DPS. It's simple math.

Let's say you have 12,000 mana and can do 1,000 DPS at a cost off 100 mana per second. You can last for 120 seconds and do 120,000 damage.

Now toggle on permanent Arcane Power. You now do 1,200 DPS at a cost of 120 mana per second. You can only last for 100 seconds, but you still do 120,000 damage.

So same amount of damage, but done in a shorter period of time. On a long fight it doesn't matter; you do 120,000 damage regardless. On a short fight, you're going to do more with the magic AP switch turned on.

as simple as math may be, you fail at it, because you didn't consider mana regen.

With 12000 mana and 1000 DPS and 100 mana consumed per second and 50 mana regened per second, you would last 240 sec and do 240k damage.
With same mana pool and regen, with AP, you'd do 1200 DPS and 120 mana consumed per second, you would last only 171 sec and do only 205k damage.
With a fight longer than 205 seconds, you'r better off without AP.
With a fight shorter than 205 seconds, you'r better of with AP activated.
Now the skill of the mage is to estimate the duration of the fight, which IMO is a very interesting mechanic. That is, if the skill really does what the people above said

[Swizzle]

as simple as math may be, you fail at it, because you didn't consider mana regen.

With 12000 mana and 1000 DPS and 100 mana consumed per second and 50 mana regened per second, you would last 240 sec and do 240k damage.
With same mana pool and regen, with AP, you'd do 1200 DPS and 120 mana consumed per second, you would last only 171 sec and do only 205k damage.
With a fight longer than 205 seconds, you'r better off without AP.
With a fight shorter than 205 seconds, you'r better of with AP activated.
Now the skill of the mage is to estimate the duration of the fight, which IMO is a very interesting mechanic. That is, if the skill really does what the people above said

you can't really do that either because if you consider mana regen in the mix, you also have to take in clearcasting procs, mana gems, and evocation. as long as your mana pool lasts longer than 120 seconds, both scenarios would be able to DPS for the same duration.

[Teslaa]

Umm.. Ovideozn. What makes the mage with Arcane Power on have less mana regen that the mage without it?. Sure, he will "oom" at 171 seconds, but then after 171 seconds he is still regenerating mana. So he will still have the same amount of mana as the non arcane power mage at the end of the fight, possibly more if he breaks the 5 second rule (not sure how thats working in cata) while regenning mana. He will also do more damage still, as he can wand for JoW procs while he is waiting for mana.

This is not taking into account how Arcane Power currently only scales the base mana cost of arcane blast when it stacks, not the increased cost, so its less than 20% more mana, and that clearcast procs are 20% more valuable to the Arcane power mage.

[sidphoenix]

the arcane mage has the same regen in both scenarios, but higher expenditures in one. obviously he is oversimplifying to try to make more people understand. the second you actually put real replenishment, mana reducing procs, pots, evo, mana gem, it gets inaccessible for many reading the forum. thats why the simplified measure of just adding expenditure due to AP. The poin is not that 20% increased mana consumption is an accurate model, but that it still demonstrates scenarios in which AP would be a Damage Done negative due to mana regeneration mechanics.

This is why haste is not a totally DPM neutral stat. on paper it is when you just consider mana per cast out. but any healer can tell you there are balanced between MP5 and hastethat generate a stasis in which you do not gain or lose. in that case added haste will make you oom, and added regen is pointless unless it allows access to a higher HpS spell selection.

[Teslaa]

Lets assume that the mage has the same mana regen, then. Which is already simplyfying it.

Mage 1 has arcane power on full time. Mage 2 never has arcane power.

To keep it simple, i will use base values of the spells at lv 80 (untalented). So Arcane blast 221 mana, 1256-1460 damage, cost increased by 175% per stack of arcane blast and 15% damage increase per blast. Arcane missiles 983 mana, 361-362 damage per missile.

Both mages will use a 4*AB-> AM rotation.

Mage 2.
*Has a 87% chance to be mana free from missile barrage, and all have a 10% chance to be free from clearcast, except the first arcane blast which has 18.7% chance (added from carry over from a missile barrage). To simplify for our readers, i'll put this as a flat mana cost reduction.
Arcane blast (221) -> Arcane blast (607) -) Arcane blast (994) -> Arcane blast (1381) -> Arcane missiles (983*) = Mana used
Arcane blast (179) -> Arcane blast (546) -) Arcane blast (894) -> Arcane blast (1242) -> Arcane missiles (127*) = Mana used
Arcane blast (1358) -> Arcane blast (1561) -> Arcane blast (1765) -> Arcane blast (1969) -> Arcane missiles (2892) = 9546 damage done

Now, to make it fair, we add in mana regen. Let's take a nice figure, like 500 mp5, or 100 mana every second, which sounds reasonable for a raid setting with 280-ish mp5 from replentishment and sprit buffs + 50% mana regen while casting.

Arcane blast has a base 2.5 second cast, so each arcane blast will have 250 mana restored from mana regen during it. Arcane missile has a 87% chance to be 2.5 seconds, and a 13% chance to be 5 seconds, so comes to an avarage of 282 mana restored during it. Whch brings mana costs to

Arcane blast (-71) -> Arcane blast (296) -) Arcane blast (644) -> Arcane blast (992) -> Arcane missiles (-157) = 1704 mana used every rotation, for an avarage of 9546 damage.

While with arcane power on (Mage 1). Mana costs get increased by 20% of the base value, which makes it +44.2 mana for every arcane blast, and + 198 more mana for every arcane missiles. This is of course reduced by the clearcast effects, in the same way as the origional mana costs were.

Arcane blast (214) -> Arcane blast (585) -) Arcane blast (933) -> Arcane blast (1281) -> Arcane missiles (152*) = Mana used. Then of course to add in mana regen.
Arcane blast (-36) -> Arcane blast (335) -) Arcane blast (683) -> Arcane blast (1031) -> Arcane missiles (-98*) = 1915 mana used per rotation. Lets also take a pessimistic approcach that AP isn't being mulitplicative with any buffs, so grant a flat +20% damage, making it 11455 damage per rotation. This comes out to 5.98 damage per mana. The non arcane power rotation comes out to 5.602 damage per mana, which shows that attacks delt while AP is active are -more- mana efficent than without it. And so, in a fight that lasts the same duration, with the same mana regen, your saying that the less mana efficient rotation gives more dps?

[Orinoco]

Ever think that Arcane would be balanced around having it on all the time?

Why bother with it then, if its on all the time? Why not just make it a passive of picking the arcane tree? Also, assuming arcane was balanced around this being on all the time it would, in fact, have absolutely no benefit at all.

[sidphoenix]

Lets assume that the mage has the same mana regen, then. Which is already simplyfying it.

Mage 1 has arcane power on full time. Mage 2 never has arcane power.

To keep it simple, i will use base values of the spells at lv 80 (untalented). So Arcane blast 221 mana, 1256-1460 damage, cost increased by 175% per stack of arcane blast and 15% damage increase per blast. Arcane missiles 983 mana, 361-362 damage per missile.

Both mages will use a 4*AB-> AM rotation.

Mage 2.
*Has a 87% chance to be mana free from missile barrage, and all have a 10% chance to be free from clearcast, except the first arcane blast which has 18.7% chance (added from carry over from a missile barrage). To simplify for our readers, i'll put this as a flat mana cost reduction.
Arcane blast (221) -> Arcane blast (607) -) Arcane blast (994) -> Arcane blast (1381) -> Arcane missiles (983*) = Mana used
Arcane blast (179) -> Arcane blast (546) -) Arcane blast (894) -> Arcane blast (1242) -> Arcane missiles (127*) = Mana used
Arcane blast (1358) -> Arcane blast (1561) -> Arcane blast (1765) -> Arcane blast (1969) -> Arcane missiles (2892) = 9546 damage done

Now, to make it fair, we add in mana regen. Let's take a nice figure, like 500 mp5, or 100 mana every second, which sounds reasonable for a raid setting with 280-ish mp5 from replentishment and sprit buffs + 50% mana regen while casting.

Arcane blast has a base 2.5 second cast, so each arcane blast will have 250 mana restored from mana regen during it. Arcane missile has a 87% chance to be 2.5 seconds, and a 13% chance to be 5 seconds, so comes to an avarage of 282 mana restored during it. Whch brings mana costs to

Arcane blast (-71) -> Arcane blast (296) -) Arcane blast (644) -> Arcane blast (992) -> Arcane missiles (-157) = 1704 mana used every rotation, for an avarage of 9546 damage.

While with arcane power on (Mage 1). Mana costs get increased by 20% of the base value, which makes it +44.2 mana for every arcane blast, and + 198 more mana for every arcane missiles. This is of course reduced by the clearcast effects, in the same way as the origional mana costs were.

Arcane blast (214) -> Arcane blast (585) -) Arcane blast (933) -> Arcane blast (1281) -> Arcane missiles (152*) = Mana used. Then of course to add in mana regen.
Arcane blast (-36) -> Arcane blast (335) -) Arcane blast (683) -> Arcane blast (1031) -> Arcane missiles (-98*) = 1915 mana used per rotation. Lets also take a pessimistic approcach that AP isn't being mulitplicative with any buffs, so grant a flat +20% damage, making it 11455 damage per rotation. This comes out to 5.98 damage per mana. The non arcane power rotation comes out to 5.602 damage per mana, which shows that attacks delt while AP is active are -more- mana efficent than without it. And so, in a fight that lasts the same duration, with the same mana regen, your saying that the less mana efficient rotation gives more dps?

Im glad you decided to put down some numbers, but please remember the ENTIRE POINT of what I was saying is that mana return and haste play into it. If you increase mana regen, the pendulum swings over to the other side because while the difference between the mana consumed stays the same(211 different for your rotation).

so at 50% more maan regen(750) you're amost at parity ( 8.98 vs 8.99 still favoring the AP rotation as more mana efficient)

at 100% more mana regen(1000mp5) you are strongly in favor of the buff off in terms of DPM(22.62 vs 18.096)

again remember I am not trying to say these are typical real world results, Im stating there is a point on these 2 plots of damage done vs mana consumed that they intersect and trade off which is better. Even taking into account the additive AB mana vs the multiplicative AB/AP damage scenario this is still true, it's just pushed much farther out on the curve.

thank you though for demonstrating that people exist on these forums who can do their own spreadsheeting.

[Teslaa]

Adding in a 1000 mp5 costs line for both;

Arcane blast (-286) -> Arcane blast (85) -) Arcane blast (433) -> Arcane blast (781) -> Arcane missiles (-348*) = 665 mana spent for the AP mage
Arcane blast (-71) -> Arcane blast (296) -) Arcane blast (644) -> Arcane blast (992) -> Arcane missiles (-157) = 454 mana spent for a non AP mage

The damage delt remains the same, naturally. 11455 for the AP mage and 9564 for the non AP mage. So 17.2 DPM for AP and 21.4 for the non AP mage, so the non AP will do more damage in this situation, assuming that both mages dps utill they hit 0 mana then stop.

Whch i admit, wasn't the result i was expecting. Guess i didn't test it well enough, i didn't put all that much effort into it TBH, considering i play fire :P.

Anyway, i'll do this in more detail in a moment.

---------- Post added 2010-08-14 at 07:09 PM ----------

This isn't taking into account the fact that both mages could drop into different rotations to conserve mana, or could evocate.

AP mage.

Uses 4*AB->AM cycle for 546 (42 runs) seconds before OOM, dealing 481110 damage.

Non AP mage

Uses 4*AB-> AM cycle for 793 (61 runs) seconds before OOM, dealing 583404 damage.

However. During those 247 seconds the non AP mage is dpsing while the AP mage isn't, the AP mage is regerating mana, giving him an extra 49400 mana to spend. I'll assume he plays perfectly, ending the fight by running oom at exactly the same time as the non AP mage. This mana lets him use 25 more cycles, (49400/(665+mana regenerated during cycle), for an extra 286735 damage, bringing his total to 767485, almost 100k more than the non AP mage. Thats not taking into account that outside the fsr the AP mage would regen more mana. Which suggests that the AP mage would still do more damage in a fight running both mages to oom with no outside effects.

[Swizzle]

again, as long as both scenarios last more than 120 seconds, they won't run OOM.

[Foibles]

Ever think that Arcane would be balanced around having it on all the time?

But why? There would be no reason to balance it around being on all the time. It would be easier to change AP and just increase the damage/mana cost of arcane abilities by 20%.

[Swizzle]

this is all kind of negated by the fact that the new AP glyph removes the increased mana cost part.