World First 10-man H-LK -10M Strict Progress

[Ashareth]

Why do people always make statements like this and when they can't back crap up? I know lots of melee running around with WFS or HWFS, I know lots of casters with Spyglass, there are good 10 man trinkets. Itemization in tier pieces is the exact same at the 251, 264 and 277 ilvls so that negates 4 of your total slots. I personally know quite a few players who snapped up well itemized 10 man heroic gear because it was better than the 25 man equivalents, extra gem slots etc can do that. I'm currently wearing a heroic 10 neck, which I honestly don't expect to replace until Cataclysm. I have replaced 3 other pieces of heroic 10 loot with heroic 25 loot, not because the 25 loot was better quality but because ilvl is a quality all its own. Shadowmourne is the closest you come to a valid point, but tbh I doubt the first HTLK kill was made with more than 1 Shadowmourne, if any.

10 guilds have less total selection, but don't pretend that 10 gear is somehow really bad when lots of 25 man raiders use gear from 10 when they could have replaced it with gear from 25. If you were talking about trinkets in TotC you would have a point, but now we're talking at most 1 gear slot out of an entire equipment set, and we're talking over 6 months ago.

Why do people always come with this argument ?
Maybe because :
- the only Stam tanking trinklets are from 25 (the only good ones that works otherwise too), be it Juggernaut/Satrina, the one from Ulduar, the one from Sindra. The only good one in 10 is the Putri10 one (a nice change for once)
- not having access to 10/25 gear makes it impossible to mix up items from different settings to maximize potentiel and overcome the failures in itemization (things like too much hit/expertise or not enough at all on the items from one setting)
- Nearly all trinklets are better in 25, except a couple like WFS and Spyglass for a handfull of specs, all the other generally accepted good trinklets are .... from 25

Comparing ICC10 hm gear and ICC25 gear isn't right.


And once again STRICT 10 man guilds DON'T do 25 content, not even if it's old T7 content, it would make them lose their status of strict 10 man guild (at least on Guildox).
It's not hard to understand how it works when you use your brain, a little logic AND don't try to belittle the other's performance just to feel better yourself when you know you aren't on par....

[Deleted]

So just because hardcore guilds would wear higher ilvl's, i should be more impressed when they kill the lich king?

[underdogba]

The fact that it took this long for a strict 10-man to down H LK in 10 reinforces a feeling that I ever since Ulduar 10 came out. Then 10-mans in WotLK seem to be balanced around having some 25-man gear.

For example, look at Ulduar 10. On the first few bosses, the incoming damage on tanks is immense for that point in progression. Yet none of those bosses have any very meaningful tanking upgrades (only minor slots like bracers and belt, and the ridiculous arp gloves that nobody in their right mind would use). Even in all Naxx10 ilvl 200 epics, these fights are ridiculous.

[Fornaw]

Why do people always come with this argument ?
Maybe because :
- the only Stam tanking trinklets are from 25 (the only good ones that works otherwise too), be it Juggernaut/Satrina, the one from Ulduar, the one from Sindra. The only good one in 10 is the Putri10 one (a nice change for once)
- not having access to 10/25 gear makes it impossible to mix up items from different settings to maximize potentiel and overcome the failures in itemization (things like too much hit/expertise or not enough at all on the items from one setting)
- Nearly all trinklets are better in 25, except a couple like WFS and Spyglass for a handfull of specs, all the other generally accepted good trinklets are .... from 25

Comparing ICC10 hm gear and ICC25 gear isn't right.


And once again STRICT 10 man guilds DON'T do 25 content, not even if it's old T7 content, it would make them lose their status of strict 10 man guild (at least on Guildox).
It's not hard to understand how it works when you use your brain, a little logic AND don't try to belittle the other's performance just to feel better yourself when you know you aren't on par....

There's a very very nice stam trinket on the badge vendor as well as in 5 man totc, not to mention any old 25 man content is up for grabs for a strict guild including ilvl 258 trinkets. The 245 armor trinket is a GREAT tanking trinket and was equally available to 10 and 25 man raiders, just as the 264 stam trinket is. If you aren't smart enough to know that armor trinkets are generally better than stam trinkets (ignoring their procs), especially with the ICC buff, that's your problem not mine. If anyone has actual cause to complain it would be caster DPS since their badge trinkets have been crap, but really with the nice 232 trinkets included in the new 5 mans I don't think they have all that much room to complain. It should not be surprising that 25 man trinkets are better than 10 man trinkets, 25 man loot is supposed to be better since the requirements are higher.

I'm not, nor did I ever, belittle their achievement, I simply pointed out that "10 man stuff is normally not itemized as well and almost all of the good trinkets etc are 25 man." is a lie. Many many pieces of 10 man loot are sufficiently well itemized that given equal item level it is better than 25 man loot. Comparing ICC10 heroic gear to ICC 25 gear is used because it eliminates item level discrepancies, when discussing itemization you aren't talking about item level.

---------- Post added 2010-08-12 at 08:29 PM ----------

The fact that it took this long for a strict 10-man to down H LK in 10 reinforces a feeling that I ever since Ulduar 10 came out. Then 10-mans in WotLK seem to be balanced around having some 25-man gear.

For example, look at Ulduar 10. On the first few bosses, the incoming damage on tanks is immense for that point in progression. Yet none of those bosses have any very meaningful tanking upgrades (only minor slots like bracers and belt, and the ridiculous arp gloves that nobody in their right mind would use). Even in all Naxx10 ilvl 200 epics, these fights are ridiculous.

Or only a tiny, tiny fraction of players actually do strict 10 progression. I've often wondered how exactly new content is tuned 10s or 25s. I'm melee DPS and I remember getting 1 shot by staggering stomp in a full set of Ulduar 25 gear week 1 of TotC, this wasn't an enrage, that attack just did slightly more damage than I could have reasonably had the stam for, I used a health flask for the actual kill that week. Between gating and shared badges they no longer need to balance around a full tier of separation between 10 and 25. Out of curiosity what boss in the first wing would you consider to be the hardest tank hitter? Quite a few of those bosses got nerfed later, in both 10 and 25 mode.

[Duilliath]

Why do people always make statements like this and when they can't back crap up? I know lots of melee running around with WFS or HWFS, I know lots of casters with Spyglass, there are good 10 man trinkets.

And, pray tell, what do they use in the other trinket slot?

And Fornaw, ToC25 gear still is out, whether or not you can pass the ilevel standards or not.

[Deleted]

Gratz.

[Genada]

grats

[Ashareth]

There's a very very nice stam trinket on the badge vendor as well as in 5 man totc, not to mention any old 25 man content is up for grabs for a strict guild including ilvl 258 trinkets. The 245 armor trinket is a GREAT tanking trinket and was equally available to 10 and 25 man raiders, just as the 264 stam trinket is. If you aren't smart enough to know that armor trinkets are generally better than stam trinkets (ignoring their procs), especially with the ICC buff, that's your problem not mine. If anyone has actual cause to complain it would be caster DPS since their badge trinkets have been crap, but really with the nice 232 trinkets included in the new 5 mans I don't think they have all that much room to complain. It should not be surprising that 25 man trinkets are better than 10 man trinkets, 25 man loot is supposed to be better since the requirements are higher.

I'm not, nor did I ever, belittle their achievement, I simply pointed out that "10 man stuff is normally not itemized as well and almost all of the good trinkets etc are 25 man." is a lie. Many many pieces of 10 man loot are sufficiently well itemized that given equal item level it is better than 25 man loot. Comparing ICC10 heroic gear to ICC 25 gear is used because it eliminates item level discrepancies, when discussing itemization you aren't talking about item level.

---------- Post added 2010-08-12 at 08:29 PM ----------



Or only a tiny, tiny fraction of players actually do strict 10 progression. I've often wondered how exactly new content is tuned 10s or 25s. I'm melee DPS and I remember getting 1 shot by staggering stomp in a full set of Ulduar 25 gear week 1 of TotC, this wasn't an enrage, that attack just did slightly more damage than I could have reasonably had the stam for, I used a health flask for the actual kill that week. Between gating and shared badges they no longer need to balance around a full tier of separation between 10 and 25. Out of curiosity what boss in the first wing would you consider to be the hardest tank hitter? Quite a few of those bosses got nerfed later, in both 10 and 25 mode.

Once again, you are talking about what you don't know. Even old 25 content isn't available for STRICT 10man guilds. Strict means "no 25 gear/achievement/whatsoever from ANY tier".

[zaneosak]

I would like to see some of you try this encounter without 25 man gear, this is alot bigger of a feat than you think. Think of their weapon and trinket choices, The fury warrior wears HARD MODE THORIM 10MAN Trinket b/c there is nothing else available. Huge grats

[Mudkiper]

Gz's

[Deleted]

I would like to see some of you try this encounter without 25 man gear, this is alot bigger of a feat than you think. Think of their weapon and trinket choices, The fury warrior wears HARD MODE THORIM 10MAN Trinket b/c there is nothing else available. Huge grats

We didn't use a fury warrior in the kill, but thanks anyway

Our healers are forced to use offhands with +hit on them because no better is available on 10man, Rogues (me) can't blindly stack ArP in combat spec without gimping some vital stats. Furthermore we don't have a paladin or Death Knight in our rooster so we lacked some pretty sweet buffs aswell when we got the kill. Anyways, thanks for the nice comments some of you have made here, it's cool to get some recognition as a strict guild.
- Gnuss / The Typhoon Struggle

[Swampmoose]

So many dumb people in this thread...

Grats on your kill guys/gals.

[Bigslick]

Would the 'world's best 25M guilds' have completed it faster? Sure - but they're generally a sponsored enterprise of talents that functions in spite of any interpersonal differences or issues. Regardless, Typhoon Struggle would not have been 'months behind' in their success. The rate at which they accrued emblems for gear was nearly halved by exclusion of availability of 25M content.

Also, the degree to which gear leans towards providing 'optimal stats' increases with ilvl, so 25-man content will generally (there will be exceptions) offer better itemized drops than 10-man content of the same tier. It's difficult to quantify the impact these two factors would have as nullifying the effect of the zone buff, but I highly doubt any would have achieved a first kill before the 20% buff the way the fight is tuned, under 'strict' provisions, both because of inability to gain some of the unique and superior items available from current and prior tier 25M content and the nearly doubled time to accrue badges.

And don't forget 264 tier tokens of which, even at 11/12 ICC10H, they were seeing a max of 4/week. Someone who runs this in addition to completing even just 12/12 ICC25N more than doubles their upgrade rate. Assume each person has an equal opportunity at tokens for 10 and 25 raids. The 10-strict raider sees 0.3 tokens per week (3/10), where the raider doing both sees 0.7 tokens per week((3/10)+(10/25)). This means that, assuming perfect class drops for tokens (lol right), it takes 14 weeks of clearing 11/12 ICC10H to fully outfit 10 raiders with tokens to upgrade their 4pc T10, as opposed to just 6 weeks for the 11/12 ICC10H + 12/12 ICC25N raider, who will also have been able to gain their beginner tier gear and bonuses faster in the first place from the higher base emblem accrual rate of dual raiding in the first place.

This was a brilliantly tuned fight, and Typhoon Struggle deserves all the praise and none of the mockery they have received in this thread for doing it only with the gear available by 10M 'strict' standards - and without the 'cookie-cutter' HM healing team of pally/disc, no less. In Cata, where 25M raids do not have an accelerated emblem earning curve or superior gear available, don't be surprised to see guilds like theirs in the upper ranks.

/cheers

[Deleted]

what is this, i dont even...

this

[elitistniceguy]

So?

Paragon got the world first 25 H Lich King kill with only 264 gear with strands of 277 and a 5% buff. That's equivalent to having full 251 with some pieces of 264 and downing 10 H Lich King. Not impressive, especially with the buff. Plus, 10-man guilds can get welfare 264 gear from badges. 25-man raiders cannot get 277 gear in that manner.

[Dethh]

What is the 10-man 'strict' criteria?

Guilds will be excluded when they earn any Icecrown Citadel (ICC) 25 normal kills or any TotGC 25 hard-mode kills. Guilds must also have their 10M Progress World Rank be better than (lower than) their 25M Progress World Rank.

We have added a special trigger for the ICC 25 normal kills that will exclude a guild from strict rankings when 8 players achieve it over time. For example, if your guild pugs ICC 25 normal then you will be excluded from the strict rankings when a total of 8 players in your guild participate in the Lord Marrowgar 25 normal kill. Please ensure you discourage your guild members from participating in any ICC 25 normal and TotGC 25 hard-mode runs if you wish to remain on the strict rankings. Also be sure minimize the recruitment of players that have previously achieved these kills since they will contribute to the guild total, regardless of when they achieved it. VoA 25 and Onyxia 25 are exempt from the criteria and can be run without risking your 10m strict rankings.

Special tip: If you wish to remain on the 10-man strict list over the long term then be sure to have your guild stay within the criteria - we are unable to remove earned achievements once they are in the GuildOx database. Also note that the criteria will change as new content is released. The best approach to future-proof your strict ranking is to advise your guild members not to run any 25-man content that features higher iLevel gear when compared to the current 10-man normal content. We reserve the right to tighten the criteria at any time if we judge that guilds are 'gaming' the strict rankings.

But ICC 25 normal drops the same iLvl gear as ICC 10 hard mode, why can't we run ICC 25 normal and stay 10m strict?

It is true that ICC 25 normal drops 264 iLvl gear and this is the same iLvl at ICC 10 hard mode. However, guilds can gear up at twice the rate if they run ICC 25 normal and this is clearly an unfair advantage - GuildOx ranks guilds based on the rate at which they earn achievements/kills. Yes, we understand that you can get iLvl 264 gear from emblem vendors and other sources, but we have drawn the line at ICC 25 normal. We also understand that Lord Marrowgar 25 is easy to run as a PUG.

My guild has dropped off the strict ranking tables. Can I simply remove players from my guild? Are we locked out forever?

Removing players from your guild will not place you back on the 10m strict rankings once you have been excluded. However, we will relax the criteria as new content is introduced (Cataclysm is our next planned date for change) - be sure to stay within the intent of the strict rankings and you will be eligible some time in the future. Note: Some guilds have successfully reformed under a new guild name after removing characters to become re-listed on the strict rankings. While we consider this a bit extreme - it is ok from our perspective.

What are the 10-man Casual ranks?

The 10m Casual ranks are designed to give a rough guide to how 10-man guilds are progressing where they no longer qualify for the 10-man strict ranking. Guilds are shown on the casual ranks when the guild's world progress 10-man rank is at least 5000 positions better than their world progress 25-man rank.

[LedgendaryShaman]

I can come in here i saw there Video and they are not using 30% buff they did it with no help ^^ So a Big GZ to them


Edit: You can not use Badges gear for a STirckt 10 man guild (Only trinkets Libram Etc)

[Deleted]

[QUOTE=LedgendaryShaman;8655716]I can come in here i saw there Video and they are not using 30% buff they did it with no help ^^ So a Big GZ to them

eh, wrong!
You have not seen our video because it hasn't been released yet, it's still a work in progress. You're obviously wrong about the 30% buff aswell since it's not our video you saw.
I think you got a few things mixed together, the video and guild you're referring to it Paragon and that topic is in another thread.

[Deleted]

for those interested, a Video of our world first strict kill has now been uploaded on youtube, enjoy.
... Being the mmo forum noob I am, I can't link the video(s). Search for "Wixbit" or "World first strict" will get you the videos.

[Dredamor]

If y'all really want a challenge do it Undergeared style, they are a guild doing 10man ICC in only ONLY 200ilvl blues from HC's think they got like sindragosa and LK left. Obviously not HC
Just Search for Undergeared ICC guild on youtube and see what they have done!