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  1. #61
    Bloodsail Admiral Kagdar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by masteryuri View Post
    As a priest i can cast Fortitude. Stop. NOTHING MORE.
    You can sustain at least 4 buffs with totems.
    Last i checked 4>1.

    Yea 4, but if i have to survive, those 4 buffs will be replaced. Your Fort will still be there.

    Strength of earth/stoneskin which are both buffs, can't have them both same time, if i need to put tremor/stoneclaw(mandatory pvp), i lose the buff

    Flamethong is a buff, all other fire totems are dps totems, elem got a better flamethong as a talent, so they put the dmg totem. Only resto need it.

    mana spring/totem of tranquil air. we kinda need the mana one except if there are paladins or other shamans in our group. If we need a quick mana boost, we scrap the RAID buff for our mana regen, than can put it back up. And i loose healing stream totem, which is a really great healing "spell"

    windfury/wrath of air if i have to put grounding totem (pvp mostly) i lose the buff.


    Remeber that said buff is lost for the entire raid/pvp team. Remember that all those buffs are all passive buffs from other classes, they put it on, they forget it during the time it is there. They never have to get it off to survive.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Instant View Post
    I barely stated that i won't comment his post further :]
    But you still did comment. You still wasted both my time and yours, responding to the fact that you weren't responding to that post, and you wasted your time and his by responding that you weren't going to waste time responding. Hypocritical, much?

    GC said that 3x Rejuv is more or less equal to our one CH (it's not what he said word to word, but he compared situation in which those two spells would be used, and those situation were almost identical).
    You're right, in that it's not what he said, and that you also lost the context.

    The context is druids are screaming "omg sky falling we can't mass hot qq have to cast actual spells when we're hot healers qq". The reason? Tab-Target Rejuv is getting smacked upside the head, because my four year old daughter can do it. It's not a playstyle.

    "But that makes HoTs useless!" "On the contrary".

    People are still going to be hit hard. A Regrowth, with a cast time, adds some health "right now" that is better for bringing people up to a stable zone alot smoother than waiting on Rejuvenation ticks. An un-HoT'd target getting hit by Nourish is the same. Considering "Random damage is random", "Mass HoT'ing is unintended", "Mana is going to matter" and "it may take two healers to bring a DPS back up to full health before they die" Triple-Rejuv is not a direct comparison to Chain Heal.

    Druid's mastery may be only HoTs, but Discipline's is only Shields, and they're still expected to push "healing" buttons.

    Your comment about PoH is also silly. Last time i checked priests didn't have 60% of healing done with PoH.
    On heroic fights like Blood Queen Lana'thel, Festergut, Phase 3 Professor Putricide, or especially Sindragosa it better be.

    But when it comes to healing w/o 'cast time' paladins and shamans are YEARS behind druids and priests.
    See masteryuri's post.

    You can't heal with Earth Shield and Riptide alone, you can with PoM, CoH and Renew though. Shaman will get new spell but it has cast time.
    Discipline and Holy will get a new healing spell with a cast time too. Druids get a nerfed Lifebloom added with the forced focus of using cast-time spells as well.

    You have this buff, and you didn't list it, which shows you either don't have a clue (don't think so) or you're biased.
    [...]My Healing Stream Totem and Earthliving does't proc Inspiration Either.
    I was unaware either could crit. Riptide can, and it can proc Ancestral Healing. That's a direct comparison to what I'm talking to. And yes, I may be a little biased, sure. I'm biased because Shaman are top-heavy on buffs, and didn't need another baseline one. You also forgot Ancestral Healing also applies it, so feel free to add that to my list of crap a healing Shaman brings to the table. Still doesn't change that a Restoration Druid brings Kings, when a Paladin brings Kings + Concentration Aura, and can switch to additional buffs as needed (just like a Shaman can).

    But a druid has a major debuff (Fearie Fire), Enrage dispell of all kinds (Soothe) and still has battle ress. Those are utility more than buffs, but it's not like druid doesn't have ANYTHING at all, he just has different type of things.
    Okay, utility:
    lolBloodlust(had to say it. If you didn't see it coming, you're an idiot), Purge, Healing Stream, Hex, Grounding Totem, Earthbind Totem, Tremor Totem, Frost Shock for kiting things, Reincarnate, Mana Tide Totem. A Shaman doesn't suffer for "different type of things" either. A Shaman was given 90% of these things because Shaman flat out sucked. Get an [Orange Hammer of Win] with Windfury and insta-gib some clothy with Windfury in vanilla was awesome for PvP vids (I was a regular victim, I know). But they were brought along to buff your other raiders, let them do the real damage (or your Priests do the real healing. Druids were innervate bitches :P). TBC closed the gap with that, and Wrath even further.

    A shaman having so much "utility" or "buffs" or whatever you'd like to call them is an antiquated design from when the only reason you brought them was for the buffs. Now, being able to squeeze as many buffs into a smaller place is mandatory for 10 mans, the new thing being forced down our throats by Blizz (gg).

    Why did 2v2 arena suck? Because it was based around which class combo had the most "tools" packed in. In PvE, that's Shaman, by default.


    I can't bring up Shadow Resistance, yet you can list up Healing Stream Totem? That's unfair don't you think? Not to mention you listed buffs that exclude themselves, and can't be sustained at the same time.
    The pool to draw upon is larger. Have a Death Knight? Well you won't need to drop Strength of Earth. Doesn't matter that you're capable. A Destruction Warlock's in the Party? Okay, a Priest will just cast... uh... what? Druids are the same with a Paladin around (but at least the Paladin might be able to cast something else!). And no, Shadow Resistance isn't a buff (notice I left all the resistances off Shaman, which are three separate ones being rolled into one, by the way, just as I did with Paladins). Healing Stream offers a unique buff in that it's a heal-over-time effect. Shadow Priests do this too (albeit differently), it's called Vampiric Embrace, as do Paladins with Judgement.

    I'd like priest to be the recipent of this 'new' buff, but for now they aren't, which on means shaman will have it worse. We can't have MP5 totem and Conc totem.
    I agree that it felt like a class that's top-heavy on buffs should probably inch it down to a class that offers less, like healing Priests or Restoration Druids.
    And it's also possible that we won't be using Healing Stream Totem at all, despite spending two talent points to make it better (which is mandatory) As a priest you cast your things and don't care. As a shaman i have to loose something to gain something else, and this part i think is hardest to understand for other classes.
    It's not harder to understand. Not getting a Magma totem out because you're stuck buffing Flametongue (or totem of wrath if you're Elemental) was the dumbest thing ever. Shaman need less buffs so they can actually use their awesome spells.



    And in regards to the other poster saying "well ours falls off if we die"

    New buffing system may actually lead to that, for all classes (When you cast a single target buff on yourself, it buffs your party/raid automatically. Dying may strip the effect away). And no one says it can't be an aura anyways (if your Arcane Mage dies currently, your raid still loses 3% more damage).
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    But you still did comment. You still wasted both my time and yours, responding to the fact that you weren't responding to that post, and you wasted your time and his by responding that you weren't going to waste time responding. Hypocritical, much?
    I had to inform him of that. If i haven't that would be mean. I'm a kind person by default. :]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    You're right, in that it's not what he said, and that you also lost the context.

    The context is druids are screaming "omg sky falling we can't mass hot qq have to cast actual spells when we're hot healers qq". The reason? Tab-Target Rejuv is getting smacked upside the head, because my four year old daughter can do it. It's not a playstyle.

    "But that makes HoTs useless!" "On the contrary".

    People are still going to be hit hard. A Regrowth, with a cast time, adds some health "right now" that is better for bringing people up to a stable zone alot smoother than waiting on Rejuvenation ticks. An un-HoT'd target getting hit by Nourish is the same. Considering "Random damage is random", "Mass HoT'ing is unintended", "Mana is going to matter" and "it may take two healers to bring a DPS back up to full health before they die" Triple-Rejuv is not a direct comparison to Chain Heal.
    That's your interpretation of what he said. I didn't put anything out of context. He said specificaly that if (around) three people will get some damage, you can either 3xRejuv as druid, or CH as Shaman. This is what i compared. I'm not talking about constant streaming damage like on BQ, Sindi or Fester. I'm talkin about random spikes on 3 peeps. Rejuv can heal that, and will be used for that, same way Shaman will use CH to heal up 3 targets.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Druid's mastery may be only HoTs, but Discipline's is only Shields, and they're still expected to push "healing" buttons.
    Obviously, that's why i said HoT's and shield aswell, will be important... 50% is still quite a lot (number taken from GC post about Disc).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    On heroic fights like Blood Queen Lana'thel, Festergut, Phase 3 Professor Putricide, or especially Sindragosa it better be.
    That's your opinnion, and only for 4 out of 13 bosses (14 if we count in Ruby Sanctum).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    See masteryuri's post.
    There is nothing there. His accusation that i can't play my own class, because i can't use tools i was given is silly. Noone, who has more than half a brain thinks that Shaman has enough spells w/o cast time, that would let him heal on similiar level as druid or priest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Discipline and Holy will get a new healing spell with a cast time too. Druids get a nerfed Lifebloom added with the forced focus of using cast-time spells as well.
    Woot. That would be neat if your version of 'efficient heal' was instant cast. I know you'd like it though...

    Not exactly sure what do you wan't to prove? Is is that shaman can heal as effectively as priest or druid with instant cast spells? Please...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    I was unaware either could crit. Riptide can, and it can proc Ancestral Healing. That's a direct comparison to what I'm talking to. And yes, I may be a little biased, sure. I'm biased because Shaman are top-heavy on buffs, and didn't need another baseline one. You also forgot Ancestral Healing also applies it, so feel free to add that to my list of crap a healing Shaman brings to the table. Still doesn't change that a Restoration Druid brings Kings, when a Paladin brings Kings + Concentration Aura, and can switch to additional buffs as needed (just like a Shaman can).
    I know shaman can proc Ancestral Healing, but that wasn't a point. I simply told you that you've missed some buffs.

    You got our 51 talent point early in a tree (empowered renew), but it's not good enough because it doesn't proc Inspiration... Even with Empowered Renew not proccing it, you still have more spells that can proc it. I honestly don't understand why you've commented on that in first place...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Okay, utility:
    lolBloodlust(had to say it. If you didn't see it coming, you're an idiot), Purge, Healing Stream, Hex, Grounding Totem, Earthbind Totem, Tremor Totem, Frost Shock for kiting things, Reincarnate, Mana Tide Totem. A Shaman doesn't suffer for "different type of things" either. A Shaman was given 90% of these things because Shaman flat out sucked. Get an [Orange Hammer of Win] with Windfury and insta-gib some clothy with Windfury in vanilla was awesome for PvP vids (I was a regular victim, I know). But they were brought along to buff your other raiders, let them do the real damage (or your Priests do the real healing. Druids were innervate bitches :P). TBC closed the gap with that, and Wrath even further.

    A shaman having so much "utility" or "buffs" or whatever you'd like to call them is an antiquated design from when the only reason you brought them was for the buffs. Now, being able to squeeze as many buffs into a smaller place is mandatory for 10 mans, the new thing being forced down our throats by Blizz (gg).
    you're writing as if i didn't know what shaman brings to the table. But that was never a point in our discussion. I know that my class is a buff powerhorse, that's why of reasons i like to play it. I had to pay the price though, and it wasn't 2 cents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    Why did 2v2 arena suck? Because it was based around which class combo had the most "tools" packed in. In PvE, that's Shaman, by default.
    That's your opinnion (again). Just because we can buff in so many ways, doesn't mean we're first class to be brough to raid. Almost all our buffs were shared with other classes, usually with more convenient way to keep them up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kelesti View Post
    The pool to draw upon is larger. Have a Death Knight? Well you won't need to drop Strength of Earth. Doesn't matter that you're capable. A Destruction Warlock's in the Party? Okay, a Priest will just cast... uh... what? Druids are the same with a Paladin around (but at least the Paladin might be able to cast something else!). And no, Shadow Resistance isn't a buff (notice I left all the resistances off Shaman, which are three separate ones being rolled into one, by the way, just as I did with Paladins). Healing Stream offers a unique buff in that it's a heal-over-time effect. Shadow Priests do this too (albeit differently), it's called Vampiric Embrace, as do Paladins with Judgement.
    Why are you mentioning different classes?

    All in all i wanted same thing as you, but i still think you wanted it for wrong reasons...

  4. #64
    The Lightbringer msdos's Avatar
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    with this totem, doesn't that mean ele and resto will have 100% pushback protection at all times?

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Instant View Post
    I'm talkin about random spikes on 3 peeps. Rejuv can heal that, and will be used for that, same way Shaman will use CH to heal up 3 targets.
    And Random Spikes to two people? Lesser Healing Wave/Regrowth/Flash of Light/Flash Heal.

    That's your opinnion, and only for 4 out of 13 bosses (14 if we count in Ruby Sanctum).
    Where's the 13th boss in Icecrown? The Sindragosa Elevator, that says "Serpentshrine Caverns was merely a setback"? lulz aside, my point was in response to you saying "It's not 60% of a Priest's healing" when on those fights it should be. It's still an exceptional powerhouse on 9/12 (no lolgunship, Deathbringer Saurfang, or Blood Princes). It may not rock 60% of output on those fights, but it's still a Priest's biggest "oomph" spell.

    Woot. That would be neat if your version of 'efficient heal' was instant cast. I know you'd like it though...
    Huh? Last I checked, everyone's "efficient heal" is the same. And no, it's time healing was normalized.

    Not exactly sure what do you wan't to prove? Is is that shaman can heal as effectively as priest or druid with instant cast spells? Please...
    No, it's the point that Druids and Priests have cast time spells, Priests are expected to use them now and both will be expected to use them in 4.0. The number of tools that are instant "now" are irrelevant.

    I know shaman can proc Ancestral Healing, but that wasn't a point. I simply told you that you've missed some buffs.
    A buff. One. Further comparisons of your 51 point talent don't really add up because you spend one point on it whereas a Priest spends three. Yours can proc Earthliving, Ancestral Healing, and even Ancestral Awakening. Saying we have more spells to proc Inspiration/Ancestral Healing is irrelevant when 100% of a Shaman's heals do, and 100% of a Priest's do not. With the exception of Earth Shield, which is subject to change! every single thing you cast on a Warrior contributes towards the uptime. But my point of "what doesn't" may have just been proven wrong by that statement right there, I dunno.

    I know that my class is a buff powerhorse, that's why of reasons i like to play it. I had to pay the price though, and it wasn't 2 cents.
    So playing a buff powerhouse is fun, it's why you rolled it. I rolled a Priest because they were healing powerhouses when others were brought to buff the Priests. Now a Shaman/Paladin isn't brought for the Priest's sake, but because they're each dominant while still holding onto their utility that justified poor performance in the beginning.

    Why are you mentioning different classes?
    Because:
    Almost all our buffs were shared with other classes, usually with more convenient way to keep them up.
    At least when your standard "what should I bring this fight" is covered, you can shift off onto something else, either another buff or some additional thing: (Magma/Searing, Healing Stream, for example)

    All in all i wanted same thing as you, but i still think you wanted it for wrong reasons...
    As much as I felt that this should have gone to Holy Priests (hooray for Lightwell being the only "buff" to spec into in the tree for 5 years straight!) I would be happy if Druids were given it, instead of my much loved Priests. Why? Their buff-range sucks; they don't even get Inspiration! My personal feelings were it should go to Priests or Druids who are lacking in it. I don't play a Druid, but seeing their lack of buffs is "wrong reasons"? Please, tell me how.
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  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by msdos View Post
    with this totem, doesn't that mean ele and resto will have 100% pushback protection at all times?
    same deal with holy paladins

  7. #67
    The Lightbringer msdos's Avatar
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    nice.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Foibles View Post
    Um... Shamanistic Rage. Technically Astral Shift as well.

    No root? Storm, Earth, and Fire.

    The Shaman has many tools Druids and Priests don't have. Plus, come Cata, Enh's totem's will have 10% of the Shaman's max health.
    Which we have to spec into, that's complete bullshit.

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