Who is Knaak??

[DeathGodInATutu]

yes, i was "bitching" about reasons, but about the characters. None were presented, nor were the other very compelling. Plus it seems that if knaak writes it it's cheesy because, for the 10th time, all the goddamn important characters share most of the qualities that his characters share. Yes, rhonin may be the only one that's snide and not white-knightish but that doesn't mean he is unique in his mary suishness.

What is this smack you are talking about? I'm portraying all i see from you, albeit exaggerated a bit and with caps, because so far i've made my point that rhonin is akin to all the characters of wow and you keep saying "knaak dun goofed up". And again with knaak is a bad writer rhonin is a sue. I never said that knaak is the best writer or even good writer, nor i said that rhonin isn't a sue. So i'm a troll because you argue with yourselves and pull shit out of thin air? Get a grip, seriously.

Before i get quoted again and "but i don't like knaak, how can you like knaak?" follows the quote, please explain to me, and i'm sorry that i have to repeat myself for the n-th time even in this post(disregard that i keep repeating that in all my posts), how the f can you like any character in warcraft, because they all manage the same feats as rhonin? A bajillion parallels could be drawn between all the characters, and yet there aren't thrall's diaries for example. This is what i call bias and this is what i'm arguing against. Because you trash knaak's characters based on your dislike for certain passages from his novels.

Not because "damn, brah, jaina is full of shades of gray, ya know? I can tottaly relate to her, but this rhonin character... When did you see jaina keep on casting after she fainted or shit like that.. Nah, only knaak does that stuff".

I'll tell you what - i'm can relate more to rhonin making snide remarks if he keeps hearing some baddies saying cliche's 25/8 than to thrall's ever so peaceful resolution. "lol, wut? We left you unchecked and you managed to kill most of mah kor'krons? That's no biggie, we'll just put some guys in your city and you can go on your merry way perfecting the plague, lulz."

i especially adore garrosh for being a man of action and doing that all the time, ya know? "sylvanas using the plague despite her kin killing saurfang the younger and the kor'krons and what's more starting an all out war with the alliance? Sho' is a good thing i'm not a hothead so that the only thing i'll do is slap her on the wrists."

you know what, guys? I think you are right. I'll go and burn the local bookstore so that they can't pollute our youth with knaak's blasphemies. And where was metzen's mind in approving such characters? Damn, that game used to have little to no mary sues...

[b]

[levitate]

So I'm a troll because you argue with yourselves and pull shit out of thin air? Get a grip, seriously.

Not entirely sure who the "yourselves" are but I guess I'm on the "HATE KNAAK BANDWAGON LOL!" so I'm probably in that group you're talking about. I can't recall I've ever mentioned anyone to be a troll. Hyperbole is the last fortress people withdraw to in an argument so don't go there.

how the f can you like any character in Warcraft, because they all manage the same feats as Rhonin?

I'll tell you why. The difference is the viewpoint and the medium as such. The viewpoint in the game is the one your character has. If you're into the lore, which I'm not, you can choose to read everything all the npcs say or you could disregard it and just move on. I tend to skim through and move on. I don't RP either.

It's going to be very interesting to find out how the movie will be like. Do you think the protagonists will be "FACELOL MAGE wiz FIERY RED HAIR!" everything and the villain will have a twirly moustache and killed with next to no effort? I'm pretty sure the characters in the upcoming movie won't be cardboard cutouts, I might be wrong though. I've been wrong before.

I'll go and burn the local bookstore so that they can't pollute our youth with Knaak's blasphemies.

Hyperbole is extremely boring and only suits an argument between a husband and wife about who's turn it is to take out the trash/dog/both/neither. In a discussion on the Internet it's stupid and boring. So, again, please don't sink yourself that low.

Thanks in advance.

[Untoldblasphemy]

snip

I was called a troll by 2 people so far because I "talked smack and played the devil's advocate" so no hyperbole here.

The latter part of my previous post, including the excerpt you quoted is sarcasm, not hyperbole for the sake of it, wouldn't call that sinking low, but let's not derail the thread further by explaining ourselves word for word.

If you skim through what the npcs say, you haven't read the books and you're not that familiar with lore, I can't help but wonder how are you going to argue with the points I made? Plus, I think it was in this thread but I might be wrong, the novels and comic books often, if not always, show some major lore characters being in the places of our characters. So whereas you might have thought that it was your guild and you who cleared Naxx, it was actually Darion Mograine and a group from the Argent Crusade, it wasn't you and your guild who killed Onyxia, it was Varian. So from a lore standpoind and after all this is a lore debate, you are partially wrong.

So I'm waiting for an answer from the avid lore defenders.

[DeathGodInATutu]

I've pointed this junk out time and time again. Their responses tend to come down to "Oh, yeah? Prove it!" and accusing anyone who's read Knaak and been underwhelmed of jumping on a bandwagon.

Yeah...I'd tend to draw the same conclusion on someone who talks that much smack in the name of "playing devil's advocate."

At this point I've given up. You can't really get through to him, and he thinks he can get through to us, we don't like Knaak, therefore you can't change our opinions and make us like him, we can't make him hate Knaak, so there's no point at all to this argument, yet they want to argue anyways(even if one is playing the devil's advocate).


So yeah, no point bothering since we can't get our points to 'em on why we hate Knaak's work(minus the bandwagoners).

[Deleted]

Knaak is in a nutshell the troll of authors

[Deleted]

Indeed, but I think Knaak was piggybacking on Christie Golden's work a bit there.

I thank her for Beyond the Dark Portal being decent.

Oh please, complain more and write you're own god damn book and show us "how its supposed to be done".

And yes, I actually enjoyed readin WotA, because aren't *heroes* supposed to be mega l33tz?

[DeathGodInATutu]

Oh please, complain more and write you're own god damn book and show us "how its supposed to be done".

And yes, I actually enjoyed readin WotA, because aren't *heroes* supposed to be mega l33tz?

Mega leet like Rhonin?


Yeah okay. You can have mega leet, but there's only a line you can draw til you get ridiculous.

[Dacia Ultan]

I was called a troll by 2 people so far because I "talked smack and played the devil's advocate" so no hyperbole here.

Oh, cut it out. You know damned well that that wasn't aimed at you.

Oh please, complain more and write you're own god damn book and show us "how its supposed to be done".

Oh, my. Was that an oh-so-mature "QQ MOAR" combined with a classic "Let's See You Do Better?" What is this, middle school?

And actually...I've been told that a fanfic I wrote last year—with which I wasn't even entirely satisfied, mind you—is better.

And yes, I actually enjoyed readin WotA, because aren't *heroes* supposed to be mega l33tz?

Readers are also supposed to be able to relate to them.

[eucatastrophe]

I can tolerate Silmarillion in small doses. And my gripe with Tolkien is not his work itself, but what it spawned: a distressing rigidity in the fantasy genre.

Like I said, it isn't for everyone.
I smiled reading that article btw.
If you are into reading books about books, I recommend checking A Look Behind the Lord of the Rings by Lin Carter. It basically talks about fantasy and epics pre-Tolkien and addresses some works post-Tolkien as well. Very nice read.

---------- Post added 2010-08-18 at 01:23 PM ----------

Yes, because I quote "we are on different levels" and "until you come to my level" does not imply that you are on the higher one? I think that I clearly made my point, but if you don't realise what the hell YOU wrote, well the understanding problem isn't on my side.

I don't know you personally. If I knew you'd go ballistic over semantics, I'd have said, "We're in different places and until we can both arrive on the same plane, this discussion is over."

You're arguing plot details and I'm talking about over-all ability. They're two different things.
What difference does Medivh being Sargeras (simplifying - so don't you dare harp on me missing the point of the story) have on Jeff Grubb's writing style?

[Laughriot]

i thought dean koontz was the butt of more bad writer jokes 0_0

I used to really like Koontz's books. He's not a bad writer at all. In fact, he's a very technically proficient writer. His biggest problem is that sometimes... it's better to be succinct.

Actually, that used to be his biggest problem. His biggest problem now is that he's getting old and starting to churn out formulaic books that are all about the same three things. God, golden retrievers, and retards.

Seriously though... the first 15-20 years of Koontz's career were spectacular.

[Dacia Ultan]

I used to really like Koontz's books. He's not a bad writer at all. In fact, he's a very technically proficient writer. His biggest problem is that sometimes... it's better to be succinct.

Actually, that used to be his biggest problem. His biggest problem now is that he's getting old and starting to churn out formulaic books that are all about the same three things. God, golden retrievers, and retards.

Seriously though... the first 15-20 years of Koontz's career were spectacular.

I don't know; a lot of his old books came off as preachy to me as well.

But yeah; I can see how something like Phantoms or Lightning is far less of an author tract than, say, One Door Away From Heaven. They've gone from "somewhat preachy" to "this is literature the way Thomas Kinkade's junk is art."

[Untoldblasphemy]

I don't know you personally. If I knew you'd go ballistic over semantics, I'd have said, "We're in different places and until we can both arrive on the same plane, this discussion is over."

You're arguing plot details and I'm talking about over-all ability. They're two different things.
What difference does Medivh being Sargeras (simplifying - so don't you dare harp on me missing the point of the story) have on Jeff Grubb's writing style?

I guess you are right about the plot and writing style. I thought long and hard, but I couldn't find a way to disagree :P

Anyway, OK, I understand that you don't like his writing style, it's a matter of opinion and taste, both of which rarely change. And I plead that all of the people that took part in the argument thus far read this, because I'm about to get blisters on my hands from writing this over and over - What makes you loathe Rhonin, Krasus and that new character so much if they are (Rhonin especially) so akin to just about every prominent figure in the Warcraft lore? Divine interventions, one grand battle after the other and cliches walk hand in hand with ALL of the faction leaders that took the spotlight in books or comics, and you want to tell me that the dislike towards Rhonin isn't a bias?

[Dacia Ultan]

What makes you loathe Rhonin, Krasus and that new character so much if they are (Rhonin especially) so akin to just about every prominent figure in the Warcraft lore? Divine interventions, one grand battle after the other and cliches walk hand in hand with ALL of the faction leaders that took the spotlight in books or comics, and you want to tell me that the dislike towards Rhonin isn't a bias?

Again: it's about the way Knaak writes Rhonin. He comes off as obnoxiously cocky and flippant.

[levitate]

If you skim through what the npcs say, you haven't read the books and you're not that familiar with lore, I can't help but wonder how are you going to argue with the points I made?

I'll help you out here; I won't. My arguments against Knaak have always been about the way he writes his stories, not what he writes about. There's a difference there. And I think you'll find most people in this thread (with few exceptions) who are against Knaak are actually against the way he writes, not what he writes about.

---------- Post added 2010-08-19 at 12:39 AM ----------

Again: it's about the way Knaak writes Rhonin.

Here's an example to prove my point. Farseer Lolotea has issues with the way Rhonin is portrayed by Knaak, not that Knaak decided to have a mage in the story. Most decent authors would probably try and make that character slightly different than Knaak did.

---------- Post added 2010-08-19 at 12:42 AM ----------

You're arguing plot details and I'm talking about over-all ability. They're two different things.

Another example.

[Dacia Ultan]

Here's an example to prove my point. Farseer Lolotea has issues with the way Rhonin is portrayed by Knaak, not that Knaak decided to have a mage in the story. Most decent authors would probably try and make that character slightly different than Knaak did.

A character can be cocky and flippant, but it's usually best if he has a few other personality traits.

If he's up against a genuine challenge, it should feel like he's actually being challenged. In such a situation, a reader should see gaps in the character's armor; that is, the cockiness and flippancy should either entirely lapse, or seem obviously forced on the character's part (as opposed to that of the author).

Additionally, "straw haters" (for example, paladins mouthing off about how Rhonin is going to hell for being a mage) who exist merely for the purpose of being shown up later? Not necessary.