Should I replace Byntroll with Shadow's Edge?

[Ronark]

ICC buff

The 30% buff won't affect relative DPS.

Unless you mean we have a 30% buff so it doesn't matter :P But it would matter on a fight like Halion.

[Badpaladin]

30% more damage dealt by Bryntroll's proc is what pushes it over in ICC. Bloodfall is almost always better with no % buff involved.

[Deleted]

no just sell the saronites , you will replace both in few months

[Ronark]

no just sell the saronites , you will replace both in few months

By that logic, no one should ever raid or PvP ever because you would eventually replace it.

---------- Post added 2010-08-22 at 12:14 PM ----------

30% more damage dealt by Bryntroll's proc is what pushes it over in ICC. Bloodfall is almost always better with no % buff involved.

You could argue that the 30% buff also buffers the Crit from H BF, due to RV rolls.

[Badpaladin]

You could argue that the 30% buff also buffers the Crit from H BF, due to RV rolls.

Increasing crit damage across the board increased Bloodfall's value by some linear value, but the worth of Brntroll's proc and its being affected by the buff is a greater linear value, else it wouldn't show up as better when the buff is plugged into RAWR or some spreadsheet.

[sharksfan1912]

the bigger question is why do you have 61 points in the ret tree

[Kisko]

ICC buff
30% more damage dealt by Bryntroll's proc is what pushes it over in ICC. Bloodfall is almost always better with no % buff involved.

With 30% buff:


With 0% buff:


In this example Bryn is 2.018% higher dps for both 30% and 0% icc buff. gg.

Prentice already pointed out that Bryn was over-nerfed in old Rawr. I guess it's where this legend of "BF OMG SO MUCH BETTER THAN BRYN" was born.

[Deleted]

Increasing crit damage across the board increased Bloodfall's value by some linear value, but the worth of Brntroll's proc and its being affected by the buff is a greater linear value, else it wouldn't show up as better when the buff is plugged into RAWR or some spreadsheet.

Could you please elaborate further how it could be that a proc benefits more from a linear damage buff (x1.3 in that case) than anything else?
To my (not ret-related) logic it would seem logical that every damage is multiplied by 1.3 period, thus not being able to make an item be better with or without the buff.

[Badpaladin]

Because increasing damage across the board by 30% doesn't increase the value of the gained stats by 30%, but it affects the proc.

Prentice already pointed out that Bryn was over-nerfed in old Rawr. I guess it's where this legend of "BF OMG SO MUCH BETTER THAN BRYN" was born.

Or perhaps it's been artificially increased in the latest RAWR?

[Kisko]

Because increasing damage across the board by 30% doesn't increase the value of the gained stats by 30%, but it affects the proc.

Math is hard, badpaladin, am I right?

Across the board, means it increases critical strike damage too, which increases value of that extra 1% crit you gained through gear.

If you swinging for 100 damage with 1% crit chance, your total damage with 0% buff:

0.99*100 + 0.01*200 = 101

With 30% buff:

0.99*1.3*100 + 0.01*1.3*200 = 131.3 > 130

If you swinging for 100 damage with added 1 dmg proc:

0%: 100 + 1 = 101

30%: 1.3*100 + 1.3*1 = 131.3

Same scaling.

Or perhaps it's been artificially increased in the latest RAWR?

Perhaps someone is conspiracy theorist?

Rawr vs badpaladin, 1:0

[Badpaladin]

Since my average Drain Life proc in ICC is about 4100 damage, that means BT would give me 4100% crit, right? You're making up numbers without giving a full comparison with respect to gained swings with BF, swing timers and how many procs of Drain Life occure, proc damage versus crit/haste gaines with respect to various fight lengths to see how they normalize(or if they do), etc.

I, too, also can say that 101 + 1 = 99 + 2, wave my arms up in the air and scream, "Holy math relevancy, Batman! This shit just got real!" Now, do you want to do an in-depth comparison? I'll collaborate if you'd like, but tomorrow because I had two tests and work all day so I'm more likely to pass out than spend an hour putting some statistics on paper.

I'm saying that RAWR has a hardon for haste, which would also increase BT's value. What do you think is more likely, that RAWR corrected an over-nerf of BT or inadvertently increased its worth with this relatively newfound love for haste(this was pre-TAiaJ work as well, in fact more prominent). I'm not anti-RAWR by any means, but it's definitely flawed and I question its accuracy when measuring things of ~50dps discrepancies.

[Deleted]

badpaladin, the gained stats naturally also profit from the 30% - you do not have 30% more <strength> (replace by any secondary or primary stat), but the strength you have has a 30% increased effect.
I just asked like that as I wasn't sure if I missed some strange Blizz way of calculation, but by all logic it can't make a difference with or without 30% dmg buff.

the calculation of kisko is not too bad, other stats also scale with the 30% dmg buff - actually, to me anything else wouldn't make sense.
I compare it to Nibelung, just because the valkyr does 30% incr dmg, this staff isn't suddenly better than one it would have been inferior to without the buff.

[asmodei]

all +% dmg increase MUST be a linear, because there are no quadratic equation (or another non linear equations) in formula

[Evolixe]

all +% dmg increase MUST be a linear, because there are no quadratic equation (or another non linear equations) in formula

This.

Anyone who thinks elseway is just meh -_-

[Deleted]

all +% dmg increase MUST be a linear, because there are no quadratic equation (or another non linear equations) in formula

nicely put I didn't wanna bring up mathematical terms, but you're right^^.
and so, 2 linear functions cannot have more than one common point, so one item cannot be better at one and worse at another point.

[Badpaladin]

I'm not arguing that y = 1.3x isn't a linear function, I'm arguing that the x is what changes, and x really represents a wide variety of functions(some linear and some linear regressions) so you can't simply measure it as 1.3x = 1.3a(x = BF and a = BT, for purpose of that argument) while ignoring every contributing aspect to what makes the x and a, and how they change.

[Richmond]

At this late stage, unless you have a shed load of money or saronites stacked up . I really wouldn't bother, your talking over 10k gold alone and although i don't know an awful lot about the class. I'm guessing the DPS difference is very minor at best and not worth the time or investment of funds

[asmodei]

...so you can't simply measure it as 1.3x = 1.3a...

u can simply do that for simplification, because RAWR is only simulator; true data are from dummy testing or what, and not from simulations, because u can add some "bulgarian constant" if u want in to the simulation for match expected results

use hard datamining (direct observations) for precise results, but RAWR cant do it

compare more simulators like RAWR, and if all results are clearly nonlinear there is nonlinear formula in game mechanics, or "conspiracy in simulator" :)

[Kisko]

Since my average Drain Life proc in ICC is about 4100 damage, that means BT would give me 4100% crit, right?

Huh? Never said that.

You're making up numbers without giving a full comparison with respect to gained swings with BF, swing timers and how many procs of Drain Life occure, proc damage versus crit/haste gaines with respect to various fight lengths to see how they normalize(or if they do), etc.

It was already done at Rawr. Have a problem with it, take it to them.

Now, do you want to do an in-depth comparison? I'll collaborate if you'd like, but tomorrow because I had two tests and work all day so I'm more likely to pass out than spend an hour putting some statistics on paper.

If x > a, then 1.3x > 1.3a too.
It isn't going any deeper that that, really. Let's see how soon you'll figure it out.

I'm saying that RAWR has a hardon for haste, which would also increase BT's value. What do you think is more likely, that RAWR corrected an over-nerf of BT or inadvertently increased its worth with this relatively newfound love for haste(this was pre-TAiaJ work as well, in fact more prominent). I'm not anti-RAWR by any means, but it's definitely flawed and I question its accuracy when measuring things of ~50dps discrepancies.

Hardon? That's very convincing, badpaladin, very.
Really, do some math if you want to prove your point that Rawr is wrong.

[Deleted]

If x > a, then 1.3x > 1.3a too.

that's what i am thinking.
I tried but failed to understand where badpal found that the proc of brynntroll got anything else out of the 30% buff. x1.3 is x1.3 is x1.3