Tanking Rant

[Danimalx23]

it seems that the current school of thought for tanking classes is that all things held constant, the classes should be able to perform the same whether it be main tanking single targets, or tanking multiple mobs with are of effect abilities. I question this whole notion of equality amongst classes.
Firstly, let me say that I do not want it to be the case where a guild's 10 man progression group is stuck on a particular encounter because they lack an experienced Warrior tank, and a warrior is the only class that possesses key abilities to overcome the encounter. (Think DKs and early Sarth)
Having all tanking classes equivalent is like a president's cabinet comprised of all Department of Defense candidates, (no pun intended.) There's no thought or deliberation as to whom to bring. I fail to see how disparities between tanking classes are a bad thing. Certain classes should have advantages and disadvantages over other classes; it's what makes the game interesting.
For brief example:

- Druid Feral tanks have the largest health pools, and suffer damage like a real beast would, take the blows full force, but be a monster to take down.
- Warrior Tanks, with their mastery of the sword and shield mitigate damage through skill and strength, exposing an enemy's weakness and retaliating with force.
- Paladin Tanks calling upon the light to absorb and deflect damage, and sacrifice themselves to keep others from harm.
- Death Knight tanks using the cold of Northrend to their advantage, hardening themselves to mitigate damage, and using unholy plagues and disease to heal and gain strength.

If all classes are equally equipped to be exceptional in all instances, then really, no class is exceptional. They are all the same. So then what's the point of having different classes at all? Specialization, customization, and itemization. These are the things that bring excitement and enjoyment to tanking.

Well, at least for me that is. :P

[Hviske10ske]

Might just be me, but when have Blizz said that all tank classes should be the same?

some tanks might be better for some encounter ( like you mentions sarth3D back in the days) but a warrior/druid/pala tank could also do the job just fine.

Ofcos there is differences, and he play styles are also very different from class to class. So all can get the job done, but its just how they useally gets it done that the major difference

[Rivin]

So, you think that the current implementation of tanks in Cataclysm makes them completely the same? As in, there's absolutely no difference in how they play or what tools they have? If so, please do some research before complaining.

The design is not that all four tanks are absolutely equal, it's that they all have the ability to tank anything in-game. They accomplish that in different ways.

[Nahte]

Back in my day, you had to refresh Seals every 30 seconds!

Seriously, stop.

[Tezmata]

It was in this blue post:

"We try not to divide classes / specs into such discrete buckets. Our overriding design is to try and have classes feel diverse, such that rerolling or adding a new class to your group feels interesting, but still give you the tools to fill your role. If any healer is too good at one thing, they tend to get stacked, and if a healer is too weak at anything, they risk being unwanted.

Put another way, we used to have this design that say DKs were the magic tank and paladins were the AE tank. The thought was that if you had a paladin in your group you were happy when you had an AE fight but that you'd be fine with anyone else. In reality, this didn't play out so well. Players felt compelled to swap players in and out of their groups, or be reluctant to run a 5-player dungeon with the "wrong" tank. We decided that tanks need to be tanks.

Likewise, our model for healers for a long time has been that everyone has their little niche. We now think healers should just be healers. We just have to make sure that they still feel different enough that you'd prefer to have as many different healers as you can. The big difference is that raids have more healers than tanks, so we have a little bit of room to make the healers more differentiated from each other than the tanks are. But only a little bit, and that space is going to be even smaller in Cataclysm than it was in LK."

And I agree that it's sad. I hope this is a case where one employee isn't accurately in tune with the company's ideology, but it was GC, so who knows. There will obviously be differences in the four tank specs, but they don't want any tank spec to excel at anything over any other.

[Rivin]

And I agree that it's sad. I hope this is a case where one employee isn't accurately in tune with the company's ideology, but it was GC, so who knows. There will obviously be differences in the four tank specs, but they don't want any tank spec to excel at anything over any other.

Why is it sad? You want to be told "Hey, you're a great tank, but <class> can't tank this, so we have to sit you tonight"?

[Tezmata]

No, as a guild leader I want all of my guildmembers' specs to have their niches. I don't want to have the same tank in every raid and have my other members miss out on action. You can't (read: shouldn't) have a raid with 6 fire mages, 2 discipline priests, and 2 protection warriors. Tank homogenization is just the first step in this direction.

[Rivin]

No, as a guild leader I want all of my guildmembers' specs to have their niches. I don't want to have the same tank in every raid and have my other members miss out on action. You can't (read: shouldn't) have a raid with 6 mages, 2 priests, and 2 warriors. Tank homogenization is just the first step in this direction.

So, you want to have to say "Sorry, guys, but our DK couldn't make it tonight, so we have to cancel the raid because our warrior, who is otherwise excellent, can't tank magic bosses"?

[Tezmata]

There's a difference between not being the best for a job and being incapable of doing anything. Instead of "LFM need tank - must be a paladin" and "LFM need tank - paladin preferred." In Cataclysm it'll just be "LF tank - class doesn't matter because you're all the same."

[Rivin]

There's a difference between not being the best for a job and being incapable of doing anything. Instead of "LFM need tank - must be a paladin" and "LFM need tank - paladin preferred." In Cataclysm it'll just be "LF tank - class doesn't matter because you're all the same."

Prove to me that there will be absolutely zero difference between them (any difference at all) and you'll have a point.

[Deleted]

if all have exact same skill and gear
the warr/DK tank should be overall better cause they can't do a third class role(heal)

[Direpanda]

I dunno. I understand the sentiment of Blizzard and friends, but there's just so much tanking homogenization these days ... it's getting kind of silly.

Every class has a major mitigation cooldown (Shield Wall/Survival Instincts/Icebound), a minor mitigation cooldown (Shield Block/Barkskin/Divine Protection), an emergency hp-boost (Last Stand/Ardent Defender/Will of the Necropolis), two ways to heal themselves (one passive/rotational, one active/cooldown), a short-cooldown AoE, and a way to nerf enemy melee aspeed and damage (TClap, Infected Wounds, etc). Warriors are the only tanks who lack absorption bubbles. Only Paladins lack short-CD interrupts.

This in addition to a suite of stuns, taunts, crit immunity, and threat abilities which one would expect all tanks to share.

There are differences between tanks, but they're so minor ... right now on live, playing two different DPS classes is a completely different experience, and this looks set to continue into Cata. Can we say the same for tanks? I'm hoping that the return of crowd control will at least make them feel a little different in instances, but right now, they do look astoundingly similar.

[Wrathonia]

I dunno. I understand the sentiment of Blizzard and friends, but there's just so much tanking homogenization these days ... it's getting kind of silly.

Every class has a major mitigation cooldown (Shield Wall/Survival Instincts/Icebound), a minor mitigation cooldown (Shield Block/Barkskin/Divine Protection), an emergency hp-boost (Last Stand/Ardent Defender/Will of the Necropolis), two ways to heal themselves (one passive/rotational, one active/cooldown), a short-cooldown AoE, and a way to nerf enemy melee aspeed and damage (TClap, Infected Wounds, etc). Warriors are the only tanks who lack absorption bubbles. Only Paladins lack short-CD interrupts.

This in addition to a suite of stuns, taunts, crit immunity, and threat abilities which one would expect all tanks to share.

There are differences between tanks, but they're so minor ... right now on live, playing two different DPS classes is a completely different experience, and this looks set to continue into Cata. Can we say the same for tanks? I'm hoping that the return of crowd control will at least make them feel a little different in instances, but right now, they do look astoundingly similar.

You know what OP? Try playing as 2 different tank classes @ 80 and keep spouting this bs. I have tanked raids on myy dk, warr and pala. The tools are similar, but the play style has a completely different feel to them. Don't forget blizz is big on bringing the player, not the class. I really don't know what you are trying to get out of this thread tbqh. Just seems like you are trolling poorly to me. If you have too many tanks? Have more raids going. Having a desire to sideline people isn't right.

[Danimalx23]

Firstly, let me say that I do not want it to be the case where a guild's 10 man progression group is stuck on a particular encounter because they lack an experienced Warrior tank, and a warrior is the only class that possesses key abilities to overcome the encounter. (Think DKs and early Sarth)

I would expect that a skilled player would be able to preform gallantly in all capacities of tanking. My thought was the whole reason for having different classes, was to allow for different play styles to achieve the same end. (read: variety = fun) I don't have to tab target rends and sunder while I AoE tank on my Warrior anymore, and as such I sometimes confuse him with my Protection paladin.

I would like to see distinction without detracting from any one class's ability to fill the role as MT. I know that's a tall order when you have to pander to the unwashed masses.

[Direpanda]

You know what OP? Try playing as 2 different tank classes @ 80 and keep spouting this bs. I have tanked raids on myy dk, warr and pala. The tools are similar, but the play style has a completely different feel to them. Don't forget blizz is big on bringing the player, not the class. I really don't know what you are trying to get out of this thread tbqh. Just seems like you are trolling poorly to me. If you have too many tanks? Have more raids going. Having a desire to sideline people isn't right.

1. I too have more than one tank. I agree that they play differently on live servers, though not quite as differently as they did in BC.
2. I'm not talking about live. I'm talking about Cata, where many skills have changed, some to be carbon copies of one another (like Survival Instincts becoming Furry Shield Wall and Divine Protection becoming Shiny Holy Barkskin).
3. I am not the OP. I merely agree with some of his sentiments. "Bring the player" is great and all, and I fully agree with it. But I'm concerned at the degree of homogenization we're seeing now.

[Blur4stuff]

so far cata beta has made tanks less convenient to play and they require more skill. that's great for me since i'll still be playing a tank and was playing one before wotlk. it's bad for all the heals and dps out there because there's going to be even fewer tanks.

hope you guys are ready for 45+ min queues