Best dps hunter dps spec.

[Lysah]

I would have to comment on that.
Most hunters are MM because the allmighty forum says so, I think that with enough teamwork and effort we could make at least half of the hunter-population go melee if we'd want to.

PS.. I sometimes raid as BM, I love it and since it are pugs I'm still in the top 5 damage done.

Heh, good point.

[Irony]

Such ignorance from a mod is shocking.

Telling it like it is? This topic is so common I'm surprised he didn't just say "Go MM" and lock the thread.

[glo]

I'm not sure you understand the difference between good and bad hunters. See, here's the REAL difference between the pros and the...bads.

Pros = 95%+ of simulated DPS
Bads = 60% of simulated DPS

A "pro" hunter can do 15k as MM, he can also do 12-13k as BM, and 12-13k as SV. This is how they are simmed, and this is how they are played. If you play correctly, you can match an SV hunter as BM. If you play correctly, you can smash an SV and BM hunter as MM. That's why all the "pros" are MM, not SV. This "target swapping and movement ruining MM DPS" obviously does not apply to good hunters, or else they'd all be SV still.

I don't mean to be so crude, but the answer is literally in the numbers. Everyone is MM because it is the best. There are as many BM as SV hunters in raids because both specs are equally behind MM.

Well since you're so pro and can attain spreadsheet numbers on a regular basis, how about you start stacking tons of haste. You know, since it's valued almost as much as ArP is on the spreadsheet.

Oh wait...

If you ever reached 95% of your simulated dps you would be a god. It's not possible and you just sound full of it. The spreadsheet assumes:

1. You have 0ms latency.
2. You are standing completely still during the encounter, not one step is made.
3. You have every beneficial buff you possibly could have from every class with 100% flawless uptime.
4. You have every possible beneficial DEBUFF you could possibly have with 100% uptime.
5. You never switch targets. Not once.
6. You never get cc'd, never feign death, nada.

I raid as MM. I just thought I would point out your terrible knowledge of the class. Even though you're a moderator, please do not spread misinformation. It's not beneficial to anyone.

(and while you're at it, you can totally prove me wrong by posting your WoL parses showing your 95% spreadsheet dps. Don't forget the spreadsheet doesn't factor in the 30% ICC buff)

EDIT: Just for kicks, I looked over your armory. You're using t10 sanc legs. I think that about proves my point.

[fartman69]

Well since you're so pro and can attain spreadsheet numbers on a regular basis, how about you start stacking tons of haste. You know, since it's valued almost as much as ArP is on the spreadsheet.

Oh wait...

If you ever reached 95% of your simulated dps you would be a god. It's not possible and you just sound full of it. The spreadsheet assumes:

1. You have 0ms latency.
2. You are standing completely still during the encounter, not one step is made.
3. You have every beneficial buff you possibly could have from every class with 100% flawless uptime.
4. You have every possible beneficial DEBUFF you could possibly have with 100% uptime.
5. You never switch targets. Not once.
6. You never get cc'd, never feign death, nada.

I raid as MM. I just thought I would point out your terrible knowledge of the class. Even though you're a moderator, please do not spread misinformation. It's not beneficial to anyone.

(and while you're at it, you can totally prove me wrong by posting your WoL parses showing your 95% spreadsheet dps. Don't forget the spreadsheet doesn't factor in the 30% ICC buff)

7. The spreadsheet does not calculate human error of you or anyone else in your raid for the buffs or fat fingering a button to attain spreadsheet which makes you part computer.

[Irony]

BS.

EDIT: Just for kicks, I looked over your armory. You're using t10 sanc legs. I think that about proves my point.

Notice how they're gemmed 30 stam and hes also wearing t5. Thats so he can MT bosses in ICC, because its gotten that boring.
Completely relying on the spreadsheet makes you an idiot, but thinking you know better "math" then the SS makes you an idiot.
MM is better than surv and Bm by about 3k dps in bis gear. On movement fights it does close the gap a bit, but not enough to pass MM, since a good hunter will only lose dps from the loss of StS, since you can easily stop moving let auto shot fire and then continue moving.

[Lysah]

Notice how they're gemmed 30 stam and hes always wearing t5. Thats so he can MT bosses in ICC, because its gotten that boring.

It's actually for soloing old world bosses, I hardly raid on my hunter anymore. I'm doing "progression" on hard mode sindra/LK on my rogue instead. At least there is one difficult fight left.

Regardless, I usually don't log out in my raid gear since I'm not really raiding.

[ASO]

I would have to comment on that.
Most hunters are MM because the allmighty forum says so, I think that with enough teamwork and effort we could make at least half of the hunter-population go melee if we'd want to.

PS.. I sometimes raid as BM, I love it and since it are pugs I'm still in the top 5 damage done.

"The forum" (and which I assume you mean EJ) says so because the number support it.

The numbers CLEARLY support it.

If you're not MM you're not doing the max DPS possible. You're not after being the best, you're after some other goal, aka trying to be a different and unique snowflake. You're wrong, and frankly, I don't think we should cater to people who want to be subpar as obviously supported by the numbers.

Well since you're so pro and can attain spreadsheet numbers on a regular basis, how about you start stacking tons of haste. You know, since it's valued almost as much as ArP is on the spreadsheet.

If you're going to be bad and think you should be coddled for being bad and fighting "the man" while not only outright lying about numbers, but also not understanding what the fucking spreadsheet means (hey, if you need me to use smaller words on the sticky, I will), you shouldn't be citing spreadsheets at all. Lysah is a nice guy but I'm not. Stop trying to call out mods or you're taking a multimonth vacation from this forum. You of all people should not DARE to call out people's gear.

[Herecius]

Well since you're so pro and can attain spreadsheet numbers on a regular basis, how about you start stacking tons of haste. You know, since it's valued almost as much as ArP is on the spreadsheet.

Oh wait...

If you ever reached 95% of your simulated dps you would be a god. It's not possible and you just sound full of it. The spreadsheet assumes:

1. You have 0ms latency.
2. You are standing completely still during the encounter, not one step is made.
3. You have every beneficial buff you possibly could have from every class with 100% flawless uptime.
4. You have every possible beneficial DEBUFF you could possibly have with 100% uptime.
5. You never switch targets. Not once.
6. You never get cc'd, never feign death, nada.

I raid as MM. I just thought I would point out your terrible knowledge of the class. Even though you're a moderator, please do not spread misinformation. It's not beneficial to anyone.

(and while you're at it, you can totally prove me wrong by posting your WoL parses showing your 95% spreadsheet dps. Don't forget the spreadsheet doesn't factor in the 30% ICC buff)

EDIT: Just for kicks, I looked over your armory. You're using t10 sanc legs. I think that about proves my point.

The spreadsheet does not assume these things, perhaps you should learn how it works. The spreadsheet typically is set up to assume a five minute fight with zero movement and approximately 35ms latency. It assumes that static class buffs have a 100% uptime, but that buffs that are based on procs have an AVERAGE % uptime, not 100% uptime because some buffs cannot have a 100% uptime.
You should learn how a proper spreadsheet works before flaming people.

[Faelz]

It's actually for soloing old world bosses, I hardly raid on my hunter anymore. I'm doing "progression" on hard mode sindra/LK on my rogue instead. At least there is one difficult fight left.

Regardless, I usually don't log out in my raid gear since I'm not really raiding.

Your arguing what spreadsheets tell you when you apparently don't even test it in-game? That's kind of stupid logic. My simulation said i would hit 18k dps as a 5.9k gs feral druid, no way in hell am i hitting that in something like LK or RS. On some fights you HAVE to move, LK between transitions, walking around the laser beams in RS, theres no avoiding that, and thats where survival pulls ahead. If you check worldoflogs, theres about 1000* more marksman then survival hunters on bosses because thats what the spreadsheets say, its just retarded to try to tell people about things when you dont even try them for yourself.

The spreadsheet does not assume these things, perhaps you should learn how it works. The spreadsheet typically is set up to assume a five minute fight with zero movement and approximately 35ms latency. It assumes that static class buffs have a 100% uptime, but that buffs that are based on procs have an AVERAGE % uptime, not 100% uptime because some buffs cannot have a 100% uptime.
You should learn how a proper spreadsheet works before flaming people.

The Mr. Robot simulator thing usually does 100% uptime on most things, just sayin, at least for the needle encrusted scorpion, and it had OOC proc like 5* more than what it actually usually does.

[Foibles]

Well since you're so pro and can attain spreadsheet numbers on a regular basis, how about you start stacking tons of haste. You know, since it's valued almost as much as ArP is on the spreadsheet.

Oh wait...

If you ever reached 95% of your simulated dps you would be a god. It's not possible and you just sound full of it. The spreadsheet assumes:

1. You have 0ms latency.
2. You are standing completely still during the encounter, not one step is made.
3. You have every beneficial buff you possibly could have from every class with 100% flawless uptime.
4. You have every possible beneficial DEBUFF you could possibly have with 100% uptime.
5. You never switch targets. Not once.
6. You never get cc'd, never feign death, nada.

I raid as MM. I just thought I would point out your terrible knowledge of the class. Even though you're a moderator, please do not spread misinformation. It's not beneficial to anyone.

(and while you're at it, you can totally prove me wrong by posting your WoL parses showing your 95% spreadsheet dps. Don't forget the spreadsheet doesn't factor in the 30% ICC buff)

EDIT: Just for kicks, I looked over your armory. You're using t10 sanc legs. I think that about proves my point.

1. I've never used a Hunter spreadsheet, but I know for a fact both the widely accepted as best spreadsheets for DK's (Kahorie's) and Enh Shaman (EnhSim) can adjust for latency.
2. See above for movement
3. And you don't have flawless uptime with auras? Spreadsheets can turn off/on buffs...
4. See above
5. How many fights with tons of target switching are dps measurements?
6. How many fights with tons of CCing are dps measurements?

Your arguing what spreadsheets tell you when you apparently don't even test it in-game? That's kind of stupid logic. My simulation said i would hit 18k dps as a 5.9k gs feral druid, no way in hell am i hitting that in something like LK or RS. On some fights you HAVE to move, LK between transitions, walking around the laser beams in RS, theres no avoiding that, and thats where survival pulls ahead. If you check worldoflogs, theres about 1000* more marksman then survival hunters on bosses because thats what the spreadsheets say, its just retarded to try to tell people about things when you dont even try them for yourself.

I can't think of any remotely smart person that uses a spreadsheet as a gauge for what their damage should be on fights like LK or RS. We're talking about Patchwerk esque fights. FFS people.

The Mr. Robot simulator thing usually does 100% uptime on most things, just sayin, at least for the needle encrusted scorpion, and it had OOC proc like 5* more than what it actually usually does.

That's because Robot is a sim, not a spreadsheet (and a bad one at that).

[Dedweight]

Your arguing what spreadsheets tell you when you apparently don't even test it in-game? That's kind of stupid logic. My simulation said i would hit 18k dps as a 5.9k gs feral druid, no way in hell am i hitting that in something like LK or RS. On some fights you HAVE to move, LK between transitions, walking around the laser beams in RS, theres no avoiding that, and thats where survival pulls ahead. If you check worldoflogs, theres about 1000* more marksman then survival hunters on bosses because thats what the spreadsheets say, its just retarded to try to tell people about things when you dont even try them for yourself.

Where did you get the idea that Lysah doesn't test the SS results in game? I just read over what you quoted and either I'm blind or stupid because I'm not seeing anything that could be construed as them saying they don't test the results.

Also of course the SS result of 18k DPS on your druid isn't going to be obtained on LK or in RS but a fight like Patchwerk, Archavon, Ignis, or Deathbringer you could very well be close to that. As already stated earlier the simulator/spreadsheet simulates the best possible scenario meaning minimal, if any, movement; maximum Buff/Debuff uptime; and minimal, if any, Human error and, if I'm not mistaken, many of them can adjust for your network latency(I could be wrong but I know a few simulators that do so I'm assuming a Spreadsheet could too). You just won't get those same numbers but you can get close.

[Irony]

It's actually for soloing old world bosses, I hardly raid on my hunter anymore. I'm doing "progression" on hard mode sindra/LK on my rogue instead. At least there is one difficult fight left.

Regardless, I usually don't log out in my raid gear since I'm not really raiding.

Even your Mut rogue has dbw.
SIGH.

[Vongimi]

Dang you people are gonna make me get arguementative about hunter theorycrafting again. Ok... here goes...

Well since you're so pro and can attain spreadsheet numbers on a regular basis, how about you start stacking tons of haste. You know, since it's valued almost as much as ArP is on the spreadsheet.

1. You have 0ms latency.

If you think this, you have never used the correct spreadsheet. RAWR is not worth a dime for hunters. Shandara's spreadsheet values haste WAY WAY below ArP, and can adjust for latency and many other factors.

2. You are standing completely still during the encounter, not one step is made.

Good hunters can make steps and move while only losing a few steady shots throughout the course of the fight. Moving while Chim/Aimed shot are going off is one strategy, and disengaging/nitroboosting (for the engis) can lower the time required. A good hunter will know where he needs to be when, so he can plan ahead for when to move. The better you are, the closer you get to your spreadsheet DPS as you plan and execute your movement for the least steady downtime possible.

3. You have every beneficial buff you possibly could have from every class with 100% flawless uptime.
4. You have every possible beneficial DEBUFF you could possibly have with 100% uptime.

Most of the time in progression raids you WILL have such buffs just about 100% of the time.

5. You never switch targets. Not once.

Switching targets does lower your dps, and so typically on target switch heavy fights you arent gonna get your spreadsheeted dps, thats obvious, no one is trying to refute that. SV/BM have their issues with target switching as well.

6. You never get cc'd, never feign death, nada.

Again, not trying to refute it. Except for the feign death part, you do realize feign death is not on the GCD right? You can feign without losing dps.

When he said Pros can get 95% of their spreadsheet DPS, he meant on fairly standard fights. Of course your dps is going to go way down on say Deathwhisper or something. But all and all, the numbers support MM being WAY above the other two specs. Surv is not immune to all the DPS loss aspects of fights as people who want to be a special snowflake like to imagine.

Seems to be a running theme lately on these Hunter forums to completely ignore the fact that skill can increase your dps. They simply ignore spreadsheets because they cant get anywhere near the numbers they put up because they are bad players.

[Foibles]

Even your Mut rogue has dbw.
SIGH.

Actually, Lysah's Sub/Combat Rogue has DBW. Jesus some of you are dense.

[Vongimi]

Actually, Lysah's Sub/Combat Rogue has DBW. Jesus some of you are dense.

He wasnt saying it as "wow he shouldnt be using DBW" he was saying it as "wow even you have it ill never get it"

[Lysah]

He wasnt saying it as "wow he shouldnt be using DBW" he was saying it as "wow even you have it ill never get it"

Off topic, but HILARIOUSLY enough, I got DBW on my rogue the week after I got it on my hunter. On my hunter I was doing my last raid just for kicks, it drops and I'm the 14th person in my guild to finally get it.

Next week, new guild, it drops and no one wants it, I take it in lieu of it being DEd. Also, mute is my offspec, and my CL makes me switch to it for progression, but that still leaves me a lot of time in sub (and 1274 ArP is a great number for me to aim for). I laughed hard at getting DBW my first raid as a mute rogue, and I give permission to all hunters without DBW to hate me now.

Also, VonGimli, I feel like that was exactly what I was trying to say =/

[Vongimi]

Off topic, but HILARIOUSLY enough, I got DBW on my rogue the week after I got it on my hunter. On my hunter I was doing my last raid just for kicks, it drops and I'm the 14th person in my guild to finally get it.

Next week, new guild, it drops and no one wants it, I take it in lieu of it being DEd. Also, mute is my offspec, and my CL makes me switch to it for progression, but that still leaves me a lot of time in sub (and 1274 ArP is a great number for me to aim for).

Also, VonGimli, I feel like that was exactly what I was trying to say =/

Yeah all these bad hunters made me come out and once more wade onto the battlefield of hunter class ignorance... now ive spent over an hour on hunter theorycrafting websites and wowhead >.<

[Ijanaak]

Why be a dps hunter at all?

[Lysah]

Yeah all these bad hunters made me come out and once more wade onto the battlefield of hunter class ignorance... now ive spent over an hour on hunter theorycrafting websites and wowhead >.<

And I changed classes. We all deal in our own way =p

Really looking forward to hunters in Cataclysm though.

[Vongimi]

Inorite? I was thinking about changing mains for awhile but ive been playing my hunter since vanilla, couldnt pull away >.<