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  1. #61
    Alright, heads up.

    Should they change Lightwell to work more like the mob's Lighwell in ToC 5 man, I'd be happier.
    Not going to happen. Confirmed not going to happen.
    People that bring this up will be banned under "Forbidden Topics"
    We're all bloody sick of hearing it by now. Really. And again, just to make sure you got the message, it's not going to happen.

    Now if your best advice is "remove it", that's fine. But stop bringing it up. This has been a forum-wide warning.

    If every healer had a lightwell, we could argue it's uses. As long as just one healing spec provides lightwell, we can say just keep it out of the raid. It's less annoying for everybody.
    This is one good point, but another is if it gives raiders who have the ability to use another tool when said Priest is around, it has them looking for the Priest and wanting to keep that around for their own well being.

    Will encounters need it? No. Does it guarantee Holy a raid spot, or will people even use it? No, and potentially. Will those who use it be rewarded? Yes.

    PuGs will never ever support Lightwell, but Guild Runs can, assuming they have the ability to put tools to use. Afterall, how long did it take to get your guild to adopt Body and Soul, despite having a Discipline Priest around?

    ---------- Post added 2010-08-24 at 01:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Merridian View Post
    Is there any way to make a macro that could target lightwell and use a charge from it without changing target?
    Something like /click [target=lightwell,exists] or /use [target=lightwell,exists]?
    Currently, no. In 4.0, you shouldn't have to.
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  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Merridian View Post
    Is there any way to make a macro that could target lightwell and use a charge from it without changing target?
    For cata it has been indicated that a player won't need to change target to use lightwell - but it may not be macro'able.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaesebrezen View Post
    Yeah, bandages say hi. Lightwell says bye. People want buttons to push...

    Did you even get what i wrote? People do actually care about their survivability - as long as it is in their own (class) hands - and not ONE healing spec being present.

    If every healer had a lightwell, we could argue it's uses. As long as just one healing spec provides lightwell, we can say just keep it out of the raid. It's less annoying for everybody.
    I haven't looked since the original change to bandages was announced, but if I recall correctly it no longer channels but still has a cast time associated with it, making it take more time away from dps than the GCD spent clicking a lightwell. As a dps, I would prefer lightwell over bandages, if that's still the case.

    The 'if every healer had ABC' we could argue its uses' proposition I just don't get. If only one spec brings a utility, you're arguing it should be kept out of the raid because it's less annoying to have that utility for everyone? You're pretty much excluding every healer. I guess I'd be out of a job in your raid (curse you power infusion/pain suppression!).

    Progression comes faster when you have people who generally are able to put aside their epeen and do what's best for the raid, even if it means they might not top a particular meter in a fight. While everyone knows their primary role, they are able - and willing - to step outside the box to do what is required. I'm not how valuable lightwell will or won't be, as it's still early beta and nothing is finalized - much less tested at level cap. But why would you specifically want it to not be there?
    Bigslick (13/14H)
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  3. #63
    Lightwell could proc AE battle Rez, heal you for 40k a tick, grant 3 magic wishes and cure cancer and people will still say it sucks.

    I still find it funny that people insist the DPS use the lightwell, do all of you have fights where you don't have to heal yourself? It's a situational spell but when it is useful, it's damn useful. And just FYI before my guild out geared most the heroic fights I use to have to fight off caster DPS using all my lightwell charges when they found you could click it during cast to heal themselves.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by zenkai View Post
    Lightwell could proc AE battle Rez, heal you for 40k a tick, grant 3 magic wishes and cure cancer and people will still say it sucks.
    This has to be the most true thing I've read all day.

    I still find it funny that people insist the DPS use the lightwell, do all of you have fights where you don't have to heal yourself? It's a situational spell but when it is useful, it's damn useful. And just FYI before my guild out geared most the heroic fights I use to have to fight off caster DPS using all my lightwell charges when they found you could click it during cast to heal themselves.
    Well, good for you then! Were they spamming it to eat up charges, though, because it's funny? Because that's a different matter altogether.

    And yes, it's quite easy to get a Holy Priest to heal themselves with the most mana efficient spell they have. The problem is, it's a boon not just to yourself, but to others, and being able to share the wealth while you focus on other things is the intended design, both from Blizzard and from the general population that tries to cast it.
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  5. #65
    The Patient Madam's Avatar
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    Wait just a second (light bulb) You mean you can click on LW while casting say PoH?!? I must try...

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Madam View Post
    Wait just a second (light bulb) You mean you can click on LW while casting say PoH?!? I must try...
    Been like that for awhile, now. It just drops your current target (which doesn't matter for healers, or if you have spells already going out).
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  7. #67
    The fundamental problem I have with Lightwell is that it is the most expensive healing ability in the game, in that it costs player attention. Heroic mode fights aren't hard because the numbers are bigger - numbers are simply an issue of gear and l2p - but because of the increase in mechanics that require the division of player focus. Player attention is and always will be the most valuable resource available to a raid.

    Given that incredibly high cost, Lightwell will only ever be useful if its power increases proportionally. If that happens, Priest healing will be balanced around the expectation that Lightwell is being used. Having an incredibly powerful ability that is basically passive would make our playstyle boring: drop your Lightwell on cooldown, and then spam tiny ineffective heals. Priests would be sat on fights where Lightwell is hard to apply, since all other healers would be more effective in that situation.

    I honestly don't think there's a balance point where Lightwell can be useful enough to justify the required attention from other players without making Priests overpowered when we can use it and underpowered when we can't.

  8. #68
    That was quite possibly the best written rebuttal I've seen in regards to this, in a long time.

    However, note that there is always the odd occasion out (tossing it out infront of phase 3 putricide's kite path, just before third debuff goes out for example?) where Lightwell is amazing and can/will be used. But I do agree with it drawing people away from the fight at hand.

    Unfortunately, that seems to be Blizzard's current ideology, with healers focussing on ground-targetted techniques coming to the forefront.
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  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by CaseyTheRetard View Post
    The fundamental problem I have with Lightwell is that it is the most expensive healing ability in the game, in that it costs player attention. Heroic mode fights aren't hard because the numbers are bigger - numbers are simply an issue of gear and l2p - but because of the increase in mechanics that require the division of player focus. Player attention is and always will be the most valuable resource available to a raid.

    Given that incredibly high cost, Lightwell will only ever be useful if its power increases proportionally. If that happens, Priest healing will be balanced around the expectation that Lightwell is being used. Having an incredibly powerful ability that is basically passive would make our playstyle boring: drop your Lightwell on cooldown, and then spam tiny ineffective heals. Priests would be sat on fights where Lightwell is hard to apply, since all other healers would be more effective in that situation.

    I honestly don't think there's a balance point where Lightwell can be useful enough to justify the required attention from other players without making Priests overpowered when we can use it and underpowered when we can't.
    This is the exact issue with it by far. You're forcing dps to heal themselves through other methods than are more easily accessed by them as well as most of the time costing them dps time. You all can claim it's only a minute dps loss, but as long as bosses have to be dps'd down with enrage timers you can't use that as an argument because dps have as much pressure to maximize their dps as healers have to maximize their healing.

    It's not about dumb or ignorant dps, it's about what is the most optimal solution, and this ability in it's current state is by far not optimal at all. With changes to healer's mana requiring them to be more efficient it may possibly be an optimal solution in some situations, but for the most part a more optimal solution for a dps is health pot/stone and or bandage.

    Don't make this about the dps that take unnecessary raid damage, as in my opinion that isn't part of the subject and only alleviates from the discussion. This is about the optimal use of a spell that is not optimal at all due to the current game design and ability in it.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Sackman View Post
    Fixing bads, shouldn't be Blizzards job!
    Unfortunately in practice Blizz doesn't tend to agree with that idea (although I agree totally with your statement). A good example were the ret paladin pvp burst nerfs. At the time, ret paladins were smashing people in low ratings brackets, but underrepresented in high-rated arena teams (largely because at a high skill level, they're extremely easy to counter). Blizz specifically mentioned in the blue posts surrounding the nerfs that they are fixing it with the lower skilled pvp players in mind.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaesebrezen View Post
    Yeah, bandages say hi. Lightwell says bye. People want buttons to push...

    Did you even get what i wrote? People do actually care about their survivability - as long as it is in their own (class) hands - and not ONE healing spec being present.

    If every healer had a lightwell, we could argue it's uses. As long as just one healing spec provides lightwell, we can say just keep it out of the raid. It's less annoying for everybody.
    People want to push buttons is basically saying, people are not willing to do anything other than what is within their comfort zone which is exactly what I said but I said it in a more defamatory fashion.

    Lightwell is a mechanic that differentiates from the pathetic homogenization that classes suffer from in WoW nowadays. Lightwell does not make the Holy Priest better, but it is a situational ability that adds flavour, and in the right circumstance is a boon to the raid.
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  12. #72
    It would be nice if Lightwell gave back to the priest in some way. For example, mana pool increased while it was active or you get your mana back or helping power increased if no one uses it. There has to be a benefit to the healer also. Or maybe even a dps gain for players who use it as well. Then you'll see people clicking it all the time.

    ---------- Post added 2010-08-25 at 11:52 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by JDPickle View Post
    I can understand your argument, but I don't believe that priests are gimped because of lightwell. Good raids will utilize lightwell, while bad people won't. I feel that good players will be rewarded by using this spell in certain fights. Here's to hoping lightwell becomes a HUGE factor in raiding
    Not many other healer spells require player participation. So I agree, priests are gimped that way. (its a wasted talent on the board)

    ---------- Post added 2010-08-25 at 11:53 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslick View Post
    If all DPS were forced to raid as healers for a month, they'd gain an appreciation for when that tipping point in a raid occurs to where the damage coming in is greater than that which the assigned healers can handle. Little things that every DPS can do like using healthstones, bandages, and lightwell, or big things such as Divine Hymn and Tranquility, can dramatically increase kill:wipe ratios.
    I wholeheartedly agree with you. Everyone at some point in time should try both healing and tanking. It will change your perspective permanently. I'm sure with the changes with loot and raiding (equal loot from both 10s/25s), people will have more time on their hands and able to play more on alts and see for themselves.
    Last edited by wowbizspy; 2010-08-25 at 11:47 AM.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by sicness View Post
    This is the exact issue with it by far. You're forcing dps to heal themselves through other methods than are more easily accessed by them as well as most of the time costing them dps time. You all can claim it's only a minute dps loss, but as long as bosses have to be dps'd down with enrage timers you can't use that as an argument because dps have as much pressure to maximize their dps as healers have to maximize their healing.
    It's 0 DPS loss, maybe a split second for melee DPS because they will lose an auto attack because it switches targets (which is fixed in expansion) Second, having raided as DPS, DPS is probably the least attention roll you can play in most fights, which is why it pisses me off when they face roll and due stupid things like stand in Mally GOO. And I don't know about you, but the only time I have even hit enrage timers in any WOTLK raid was due to DPS being DEAD not lack thereof.

    It's not about dumb or ignorant dps, it's about what is the most optimal solution, and this ability in it's current state is by far not optimal at all. With changes to healer's mana requiring them to be more efficient it may possibly be an optimal solution in some situations, but for the most part a more optimal solution for a dps is health pot/stone and or bandage.
    Have you even used light well because this just sounds ignorant, no offense. Bandage better than Lightwell?

    ---------- Post added 2010-08-25 at 12:56 PM ----------

    One last thing I will scream it again, I don't really care if DPS even clicks my light well because in fights where it is useful, it's useful for me and I tend to use up all the charges before it's even up. Did you know on sindragosa you can use it to heal and not take an unchained magic charge? Pretty damn handy in Heroic P3, not to mention you can click it while iceblocked to heal yourself

    It's a situational spell but The damn spell is OP when the situation arises

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by sicness View Post
    This is the exact issue with it by far. You're forcing dps to heal themselves through other methods than are more easily accessed by them as well as most of the time costing them dps time. You all can claim it's only a minute dps loss, but as long as bosses have to be dps'd down with enrage timers you can't use that as an argument because dps have as much pressure to maximize their dps as healers have to maximize their healing.

    It's not about dumb or ignorant dps, it's about what is the most optimal solution, and this ability in it's current state is by far not optimal at all. With changes to healer's mana requiring them to be more efficient it may possibly be an optimal solution in some situations, but for the most part a more optimal solution for a dps is health pot/stone and or bandage.

    Don't make this about the dps that take unnecessary raid damage, as in my opinion that isn't part of the subject and only alleviates from the discussion. This is about the optimal use of a spell that is not optimal at all due to the current game design and ability in it.
    The thing is, what will be the highest damage over entire fight loss, you spending 1 sec (2 if you're really slow and keyboard turn) or you lying dead for 3½ minute of the fight cause you couldn't be arsed healing yourself ? =)

    ---------- Post added 2010-08-25 at 01:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by underdogba View Post
    Unfortunately in practice Blizz doesn't tend to agree with that idea (although I agree totally with your statement). A good example were the ret paladin pvp burst nerfs. At the time, ret paladins were smashing people in low ratings brackets, but underrepresented in high-rated arena teams (largely because at a high skill level, they're extremely easy to counter). Blizz specifically mentioned in the blue posts surrounding the nerfs that they are fixing it with the lower skilled pvp players in mind.

    Problem is dumping down difficulty is not the way to make bad people better, it merely makes the mediocre players worse because they never get put in situations where they need to evolve their playstyle to new heights to be able to cope.

    Blizzard setting the bar too low (at least by my opinion) will only help bads stay bad =/



    *edit*



    A way to help people use it might be to make it a sort of aura, and when you're in range it could pop up an icon near your healthbar (or whereever) which you could click to use a charge (think zealot/rune priest buffs from Warhammer Online)
    Last edited by Pozz; 2010-08-25 at 06:04 PM.

  15. #75
    Herald of the Titans Ynna's Avatar
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    I use Lightwell on any encounter it makes sense and since they're improving the click range and it won't drop you're target when you click it, it will only make it better.
    What could improve it is giving it a small passive increase to both the priest and the person clicking it, to add incentive to it.
    I see nothing wrong with the spell in and of itself.
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  16. #76
    Yeah, some sort of incentive to use it seems in order, especially with the DPS mindset of "I don't need to heal myself, I just need to focus on DPS, healer will keep me up".

    Either that or have a couple boss fights where clicking the Lightwell just makes the healing easier. Sort of like on Halion how having a Holy priest with Body and Soul makes the void zones a tad easier to handle.
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  17. #77
    Fluffy Kitten conscript's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ynna View Post
    I use Lightwell on any encounter it makes sense and since they're improving the click range and it won't drop you're target when you click it, it will only make it better.
    What could improve it is giving it a small passive increase to both the priest and the person clicking it, to add incentive to it.
    I see nothing wrong with the spell in and of itself.
    The incentive for clicking the lightwell is you aren't dead. I don't know why they don't just scrap the current Lightwell and make it a copy of the version they use in ToC5 that can be a smart heal/smart weak damage dealing spell. I love the current lightwell, but no one is ever going to use it until they break the stigma surrounding it that will exist regardless of the range and clicking changes they make.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by conscript View Post
    The incentive for clicking the lightwell is you aren't dead.
    If clicking on Lightwell is necessary for DPS to stay alive, which outcome do you think is most likely:
    1. All DPS are retrained to spend the necessary amount of attention to track where the Lightwell is during a fight, and the raid loses DPS due to both the clicking and to the extra movement necessary for DPS to stay in range of the Lightwell.
    2. Holy Priests are Sunwelled and replaced by other healing classes that do not cripple the raid in order to perform well.
    Don't expect Lightwell to be changed to become anything more than the very niche spell it is now, such a change would destroy Holy's viability.
    Last edited by CaseyTheRetard; 2010-08-25 at 05:54 PM.

  19. #79
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Lightwell had it's uses a long time ago (think back to Shazzrah in MC) and even then it is entirely situational. It is by no means a useless spell, especially in tight-knit groups that raid well together. In fact, I believe the entire issue with the spell is that healers don't want to have to rely on other people to make a spell they use effective.

    And I wouldn't begin to compare it to Body and Soul. I can't think of a boss fight where it is not useful outside of Gunship, though by no means necessary. Lightwell, on the other hand, has far too many factors to weigh in.

    That being said, I personally use the spell.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaesebrezen View Post
    Yep. That's exactly why Failgrip won't get used. It costs the more mana as a greater heal.
    If they run out themselves -> no need to grip, no mana wasted
    If they have to be gripped -> you had to waste a ton of mana to correct somebodies fail.

    If you're mana starved and have to save idiots with lifegrip, then it will hurt. Better take people who know how to move and save the mana on lifegrip.
    what about a fight like lk? would trivialize valks. Beasts when the fire buff tank fails. Extra speed boost to draw out burrows on h anub. There are many fights where this would be invaluable. Light well is bad design because it is a massive amount of potential healing with 0 effort on the healers part. It is like jol except with higher potential and not passive. Playing a dps i would love if they made it useable through a macro which could then get a binding modifier on my hstone.

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