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  1. #141
    The Patient Nayt's Avatar
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    First allow me to qualify my only beef with LW, and this is I will not be happy if they make it a prerequisite to a core spell. As long as it stays in the realm of optional than I don't care what they do with it, cause it wont really matter. Since they made it a prereq in previous beta builds however, LW grabbed the attention of most Priests, hence the large amount of LW threads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslick View Post
    As to Lightwell in beta, my opinion is fairly ill-informed as I'm not a participating tester. But given the performance of Lightwell in the current environment -- when you have a raid group that is able to look past their personal goal of 'must top meters' when needed and take some personal responsibility for the collective effort -- and that mana will purportedly be a limited resource for healers in Cata, I can only see it becoming more viable than it is today. Blizzard's biggest challenge isn't making Lightwell worthwhile, but getting DPS to take off the blinders they wear.
    If mana is a limited resource why would I want to cast ANY spell that has a chance of not working as desired? I have no doubt in my mind that when I cast Flash Heal that my tank will gain health. I have HUGE doubts in my mind when I cast LW as to whether or not the right people will use it, and use it appropriately. In a world where talent points are more expensive (less points overall means each single point has a higher value) and where mana management is key, why would I want to waste talents and mana on a heal that could be misused?

    Stay away from the "Well if people learned to use it!" arguments, they are invalid. The fact is that it CAN be misused. Not one of my other healing spells can be used incorrectly by other players. Why should I spend mana on a heal that might not heal?

    LW has lots of potential, but you can't push a rope. Regardless of how great it is, if the masses don't like it than there isn't much you can do about it, and it's pretty obvious that the community as a whole hasn't really liked LW for a looooong time. Should & Could have no part in this, this is the entertainment industry. If you want to base things on potential then go play politics.
    Last edited by Nayt; 2010-09-03 at 10:57 PM. Reason: Huuuurrrrrrr!

  2. #142
    High Overlord Valicen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nayt View Post
    First allow me to qualify my only beef with LW, and this is I will not be happy if they make it a prerequisite to a core spell. As long as it stays in the realm of optional than I don't care what they do with it, cause it wont really matter. Since they made it a prereq in previous beta builds however, LW grabbed the attention of most Priests, hence the large amount of LW threads.



    If mana is a limited resource why would I want to cast ANY spell that has a chance of not working as desired? I have no doubt in my mind that when I cast Flash Heal that my tank will gain health. I have HUGE doubts in my mind when I cast LW as to whether or not the right people will use it, and use it appropriately. In a world where talent points are more expensive (less points overall means each single point has a higher value) and where mana management is key, why would I want to waste talents and mana on a heal that could be misused?

    Stay away from the "Well if people learned to use it!" arguments, they are invalid. The fact is that it CAN be misused. Not one of my other healing spells can be used incorrectly by other players. Why should I spend mana on a heal that might not heal?

    LW has lots of potential, but you can't push a rope. Regardless of how great it is, if the masses don't like it than there isn't much you can do about it, and it's pretty obvious that the community as a whole hasn't really liked LW for a looooong time. Should & Could have no part in this, this is the entertainment industry. If you want to base things on potential then go play politics.

    You are giving a lot of credit to "the masses" and their thought systems and believing too much in their agency. "If people learned how to use it" is a valid argument, but not by itself. "If people learned how to use it" is a behaviourist argument, and thus very applicable to Lightwell. Why don't people use lightwell as is? Because of two very well known issues:
    1) Having to find and click on the lightwell and retarget your original target
    2) Positioning Lightwell.

    The 15yard clicking range alleviates these two issues greatly. Targetlasttarget can be solved with macros and hasn't Lightwell now been changed to actually /targetlasttarget after being clicked now? A strong argument against lightwell has been "why should DPS have to heal themselves when it is my job?". Whilst this is true, we can't have every spell a smart-cast. That's pretty dull. People cry about homogenization, then when something different is introduced they scream about how useless they believe it to be.

    Why cast lightwell when another spell can suffice? Because lightwell, when used efficiently (against auras and predictable damage) can allow you to regenerate mana. Chakra renew and drop a lightwell against aura damage or light but frequent group/frontal damage, or with foresight a great tool to use on movement fights which seem to be emphasized in cataclysm (abundance of "cast while moving" talents and stated design goals to make more interesting encounters).Popping a lightwell next to the tanks is also a good strat.
    Lightwell gives the player utility. It is a tool that can be used by the masses to ease encounters but in a way that powerfully compliments other spells. And it's pretty unique. Keeping Lightwell is a good idea by the devs.


    And people haven't liked lightwell mainly due to popular rhetoric. Opinions are like a popular sickness; indiscriminate and highly contagious. Priest forums are a hive of anti-lightwell sentiments that create many of the issues we face with the current lightwell design. When healers adopt the ideals of DPS regarding healing styles, you simply enforce the dominant ideologies structuring healing rather than doing anything to subvert it.



    a decent overview of the strengths and weaknesses of the current design of lightwell is available from wowinsider (google "lightwell useage wowinsider (can't post links yet :<))

    Recognizing opportunity

    That brings me to another point: recognition. I think the No. 1 reason players don't use Lightwell currently is because they can't recognize times to use it. Worse, they don't know what to do when they see one, because really, when was the last time you saw one
    Here's an interesting quote from the article that fits into my argument about lightwell being criticized largely due to opinions inherited from priest to priest through snide comments about lightwell builds and suggestions (popularised within the priest forum, where one goes for opinions on priestly matters and the "rate the priest above you" threads).


    tl;dr: lightwell will be very useful with the cata changes but the biggest issue it has to resolve is public ignorance, which can only be resolved from within the community, not from the devs.

  3. #143
    Valicen made a number of valid points, so I'll just add to thoughts to the preceding comment..

    Quote Originally Posted by Nayt View Post
    First allow me to qualify my only beef with LW, and this is I will not be happy if they make it a prerequisite to a core spell. As long as it stays in the realm of optional than I don't care what they do with it, cause it wont really matter.
    You've complained that priests are in jeopardy because Blizzard will be balancing priests around LW, but here you are arguing that so long as it stays as an optional talent - as it does in the current build - you are unconcerned as it 'won't really matter.' So forgive me if I'm a bit confused, but it appears you're voicing a complaint about the status of the spell as it existed in an incarnation from which Blizzard has departed, which has no bearing on its present form or that to which Blizzard has indicated its aspirations, which are the only two representations on which the current thread should remain focused. Trimming away comments that only pertain to expired models would helps minimize confusion and keep the thread on track

    I have HUGE doubts in my mind when I cast LW as to whether or not the right people will use it, and use it appropriately ... Regardless of how great it is, if the masses don't like it than there isn't much you can do about it, and it's pretty obvious that the community as a whole hasn't really liked LW for a looooong time.
    Nobody will ever buy from a salesperson who openly complains about and disparages his product to his prospective customers. The trick to LW is that it's HPM is dependent on its use. If people use it, it can be your best tool. If they don't, it's a pretty expensive pool of light.

    So you have two options when you get to fights where LW can potentially 'shine':

    If you sell it to your raid the way you sell it here, don't bother speccing into it. You can do the content just fine without it, though there are times in current raiding where it can make your life easier, and it appears Blizzard intends to expand on those opportunities in Cata.

    If you approach your raid with the attitude of "Hey, I know this isn't something you're used to, but here's how LW works now and while it's not perfect, it's not going to totally screw your dps... If you use it when x happens, less people will die because the healers can put out more total HPS during that time, and it's more mana efficient so we healers are less likely as a whole to run OOM. If you don't use it, that's fine, but don't complain if you die because you didn't get a heal when we had to start prioritizing where to land heals."
    Bigslick (13/14H)
    "Those who deny respect for others deserve it not for themselves."

  4. #144
    The Patient Nayt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valicen View Post
    You are giving a lot of credit to "the masses" and their thought systems and believing too much in their agency. "If people learned how to use it" is a valid argument, but not by itself. "If people learned how to use it" is a behaviourist argument, and thus very applicable to Lightwell. Why don't people use lightwell as is? Because of two very well known issues:
    1) Having to find and click on the lightwell and retarget your original target
    2) Positioning Lightwell.
    I give great credit to the masses because this is entertainment. When a director makes a movie and gets bad reviews, he can go out and tell everybody why they are wrong and his movie is great .. but he's still not going to make any money. There is the possability that LW can be great, but considering that it's core mechanics haven't changed since it's inception I don't see why anybody should even bother to revisit it. When I see a movie I don't like, I don't watch the sequal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslick View Post
    You've complained that priests are in jeopardy because Blizzard will be balancing priests around LW, but here you are arguing that so long as it stays as an optional talent - as it does in the current build - you are unconcerned as it 'won't really matter.' So forgive me if I'm a bit confused, but it appears you're voicing a complaint about the status of the spell as it existed in an incarnation from which Blizzard has departed, which has no bearing on its present form or that to which Blizzard has indicated its aspirations, which are the only two representations on which the current thread should remain focused. Trimming away comments that only pertain to expired models would helps minimize confusion and keep the thread on track
    My little "Disclaimer" was for those who would jump to the conclusion of "Just don't spec for then", because in the grander scheme there really isn't much we can do about it other than ignore it as we have since it was created. However, I would personally appreciate it if my class wasn't balanced around things that aren't utilized. Much like encounters are not balanced around all raid members having Dampen Magic, but then the Dev's haven't tried to make Dampen Magic usefull for the last couple expansions either. As long as our beloved Dev's continue to mess with LW in an effort to fix it then any concerns people have with how they will balance their class around it are valid. While it may not be mandatory in the current build, previous builds give us some insight on the direction they would like it to take.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslick View Post
    If you approach your raid with the attitude of "Hey, I know this isn't something you're used to, but here's how LW works now and while it's not perfect, it's not going to totally screw your dps... If you use it when x happens, less people will die because the healers can put out more total HPS during that time, and it's more mana efficient so we healers are less likely as a whole to run OOM. If you don't use it, that's fine, but don't complain if you die because you didn't get a heal when we had to start prioritizing where to land heals."
    Scenarios like this are great on paper, like most scenarios surrounding LW however, in-game they don't hold up too well. Why should I have to "sell" people on one of my spells? Please keep in mind that my average daily heroic usually involves having to explain class mechanics to the people .. lets say that again .. Having to explain to people HOW THEIR OWN CLASS WORKS. When a Paly tank doesn't understand the value of Ret Aura, an ability which they have had for the last 70+ levels, why would I expect them to know my class mechanics? I'm all for making things more challenging in the game, but I also understand that not all players are equal.


    PS - I really would love LW to be usefull just so you know. LW and other spells like it could change the game for the better, but unless they spread the love around a bit and give abilities to other classes that require cross player use to be effective than I just don't see it happening. Some sort of Hunter Turret could be a blast ...

    ---------- Post added 2010-09-04 at 06:24 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Valicen View Post
    And people haven't liked lightwell mainly due to popular rhetoric. Opinions are like a popular sickness; indiscriminate and highly contagious. Priest forums are a hive of anti-lightwell sentiments that create many of the issues we face with the current lightwell design. When healers adopt the ideals of DPS regarding healing styles, you simply enforce the dominant ideologies structuring healing rather than doing anything to subvert it.
    I'm gonna pick this apart really quick, nothing personal I just see these types of thought processes floating around with some players.

    Most mages spec arcane right now. Is it because of popular opinion or is it based on facts? Facts. Arcane is the highest DPS right now.

    Most players think Ret Paly's are "E-Zmode". Again, popular thought process .. but also well founded, because you can successfully maintain high DPS while only pressing a few buttons.

    Feral Druids are the easiest tanks to play. Popular thought process, and yet you can macro your entire tanking rotation while in bear form to a single key binding.

    Players gravitate towards what works the best because it works .. THE BEST. Not because they heard a story of some guy who's brothers sister thought she saw the guy across the street doing amazing DPS with spec "X".

    The "Popular Rhetoric" surrounding LW isn't unfounded, rather it's been cemented into place time and time again. Mechanics like LW are the Smart Mans abilities, cause have to be intelligent enough to understand their value. Never underestimate the power of stupid, and if you ever doubt that then just go read trade chat for a couple of minutes.
    Last edited by Nayt; 2010-09-04 at 02:38 PM. Reason: Huuuurrrrrrrrrr!

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