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  1. #21
    Yeah well, how bout rng? I'm a warrior myself and while I can dish out some crazy damage, moments when 4 swings in a row are misses want me to ram my head against a wall. Too much scaling with gear involved in current warrior gameplay.

    credits: Supernerd

  2. #22
    Seriously the QQ going on here "im a pure dps class blah blah blah" is BS i roll a feral kitty and i bust my ass to top DPS in my guild and i have busted my ass for weeks to get the gear to do it, i also have a arc/fire mage and i faceroll through icc doing fark all and still pump dps i would be pissed if some faceroll arc mage 1121121121111211211112 beat my 123334123423341531535565756dgqweaawfaewaf---JOHN FUCKING MADDEN rotation hunters/mages/rouges and hunters get over yourselves unless u want to be in a guild where there will be one of every hybrid class and then the rest of the raid filled up with 4 classes granted there are some issues atm with mechanics and some class/spec dps but thats always gona happen UMAD coz UBAD!!

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    In that perfect world of yours nobody would roll a pure dps class. Why would I roll a rogue when I can roll a kitty druid and have tank/caster/healer offspec just by farming gear for a week or two?

    The top 4 dps should be rogue, mage, warlock and hunter, possibly with rogue doing slightly more dps than the ranged classes. The hybrids should do something like 5-10% less damage than pures.
    If this was true, then we shouldnt be seeing pure classes ingame by now as there has been no so called "hybridtax" for the whole Wrath expansion. And as it looks so far, there wont be in Cata. Seems people pick the class based on their likings and not their potential epeen.

  4. #24
    The Lightbringer Snes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisko View Post
    *bar graph*
    For each dps spec I took #50 dps position for eight heroic 25man boss fights from World of Logs and used average dps to make this chart (ICC buff is present of course). I didn't touched top spots, since they usually include Hysteria/PI/CleavePremade, but still I wanted number which can represent current capability of class using BiS gear and top player skill. It's quite hard to rank into World Top50 and you can frequently see people from CO/vodka/Paragon there.

    Every H:ICC fight is included except Gunship/Dream (only trash there, idle time), Blood Queen (highest dps classes will get first bites), LK (not enough parses for heroic fight).

    For the sake of comparison I included several less optimal/pvp specs, they are shadowed.

    Full table with dps numbers:

    *table*

    Enjoy.
    ^^This is how you present information without starting flame wars. The OP gathered data, presented it, and provided a method of obtaining the results, without giving any sort of biased opinion. Thanks for the chart.
    Everyone's aware that warriors are drastically underpowered in low level gear and overpowered in high level gear, which blizz is supposedly fixing via rage normalization (although I think there's more to it than rage generation).
    Last edited by Snes; 2010-08-26 at 02:02 AM. Reason: got rid of images
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  5. #25
    Pandaren Monk Darios's Avatar
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    I'm surprised arcane mage is so low

  6. #26
    Fire mage beat arcane mage? hm.

  7. #27
    Fire mage beat arcane mage? hm.
    Yes, welcome to 30% buff. Not sure how fire mage crits work but I know ret paladins double dip off the 30% buff with our crits so that could be the reason.

    Great post. I was surprised to see paladins up in the top 5. Expected to see warlocks a lot higher too.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Om1 View Post
    why would I play a warrior, druid, paladin etc, when playing a hunter is so much more fun?
    I'm just saying -Play the class you like the most because in the end blizard's goal is that all the dps-classes should be able to do equal amount of damage. no one will ever bring only 1 class because that class does more dps than all the other classes.

    Hybrid classes work just as hard to gain their gear and skill with their spec as a pure dps class do, so why should they be punished for that?
    Actually Blizz's goal is to have the hybrid's 5-10% lower than pure dps. They have stated this multiple times. Amd although this isnt happening right now, this is their goal and has been for a while.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by sethers656 View Post
    Actually Blizz's goal is to have the hybrid's 5-10% lower than pure dps. They have stated this multiple times. Amd although this isnt happening right now, this is their goal and has been for a while.
    No, just no. Blizzard and GC has never said they want hybrids behind with 5-10% percent, or stated any percent at all.

    Quote from Ghostcrawler:
    There is not a “5% rule” that says pures should be 5% higher than hybrids in every circumstance. Again, most of the time other factors such as the encounter specifics will have a greater effect. The “5% rule” was either something a player suggested that stuck or something we threw out at some point as an example. It isn’t a hard and fast rule. We aren’t going to provide a hard and fast rule because players would then attempt to invoke that rule every time they thought their damage was too low instead of exploring other ways to improve their character’s performance.

    Source: forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=20677330431&sid=1

    Pures can dream of as much as a 5% difference, in reality it wont happen and as GC says, this fabled "tax" will hardly be noticeable when applied upon everything else in a raidencounter. Halleluja for that. Bring the player and not the class, ye?

  10. #30
    In our design, the pure dps classes (hunter, mage, warlock and rogue) should do slightly higher dps than hybrid damage-dealers all things being equal. All things are rarely equal. Player skill, gear, raid comp, latency, random luck and most importantly the specifics of the encounter will often favor one class, spec or player over another.

    The reason we want pures to so slightly higher damage is that pures can only fulfill one role. If your guild or raid has no more need for damage-dealers, there is no way for these classes to raid with you. By contrast, the six other classes always have the option to respec for another role either temporarily or for the long haul.
    -GC
    the thread you linked
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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Putricidegoodnews View Post
    -GC
    the thread you linked
    And? I pointed out that Blizzard have never said anything about a set percentage as sethers claimed. And certainly not 5-10%. And as I said in last post, GC is talking about a slightly higher dps, keyword beeing slightly.

    Again, most of the time other factors such as the encounter specifics will have a greater effect.
    -GC

    The "tax" is there, but even in a perfect world it is insignificant, unless you are raiding a target dummy.
    Last edited by maichan; 2010-08-26 at 06:03 AM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by xxAkirhaxx View Post
    Yes, welcome to 30% buff. Not sure how fire mage crits work but I know ret paladins double dip off the 30% buff with our crits so that could be the reason.

    Great post. I was surprised to see paladins up in the top 5. Expected to see warlocks a lot higher too.
    No they don't. There is no double-dipping in any such aura outside of the "powering up" in Twin valkyrs(which is why you see nearly 30k ticks of RV) and....I believe thaddius? Been too long to confirm that. If RV were to double-dip, the highest RV tick would be ~8900 damage rather than ~6700 in this parse.

    Anyways, the data is too skewed due to Shadowmourne. It's damn near a 1500 DPS increase for ret paladins(wihtout the 30% buff factored in). I can't speak for warriors or DK's but numbers would be a lot lower for Blood/Ret/Fury/UH seeing as 45+/50 of the top parses are with Shadowmourne.
    Last edited by Badpaladin; 2010-08-26 at 06:04 AM.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by maichan View Post
    And? I pointed out that Blizzard have never said anything about a set percentage as sethers claimed. And certainly not 5-10%. And as I said in last post, GC is talking about a slightly higher dps, keyword beeing slightly.
    And how accurately do you think Blizzard can tune the dps output of classes? They have a hybrid doing most dps in icc right now which is against their own stated goals, so obviously they failed at tuning. Realistically they can't tune more accurately than 5-10% differences anyway.

  14. #34
    go rogues! woot! and fire mage?? win! totally gonna finish gearing her up now

  15. #35
    First, warriors topping in alot of encounters right now have hardly anything to do with the tax but the warriors scaling and endless rage. This however is beeing worked on by Blizzard and hopefully fixed come Cataclysm.

    Second: Blizzard have never said they want pures to top on every encounter. They do not want a flat percentage dps boost to be the reason for why pures top the meter unless its on Patchwerk or a similar static fight where you dont have to worry about anything but your dps at all. Most of the time the encounter favors some classes more then others.

    Player Skills > Encounter > tax.

    Realistically they can't tune more accurately than 5-10% differences anyway.
    Assumption from your side.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Badpaladin View Post
    Anyways, the data is too skewed due to Shadowmourne. It's damn near a 1500 DPS increase for ret paladins(wihtout the 30% buff factored in). I can't speak for warriors or DK's but numbers would be a lot lower for Blood/Ret/Fury/UH seeing as 45+/50 of the top parses are with Shadowmourne.
    - I don't think you can rank at Top50 class dps without Smourne now, too much of them around. Even getting to Top200 will be extremely hard. Say, for paladins Festergut Top50 is 18184, Top200 is 17564, not that much of a difference. Contribution from Smourne is ~2k after 30% buff.

    - Yes, melees without Smourne would be placed much lower at the graph, but you can't honestly say it's a rare weapon now. I know one guild at my realm have 6 Smourners and their tanks working on next ones, they aren't even Top100 guild.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesscalise View Post
    Fire mage beat arcane mage? hm.
    Look at Paragon/Premonition/CO, all their mages are Fire. It just does more damage, regardless of ICC buff.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by maichan View Post
    Assumption from your side.
    It's not an assumption, it's a fact. If they could tune more accurately we would not have warriors doing top dps in icc.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Kisko View Post
    - I don't think you can rank at Top50 class dps without Smourne now, too much of them around. Even getting to Top200 will be extremely hard. Say, for paladins Festergut Top50 is 18184, Top200 is 17564, not that much of a difference. Contribution from Smourne is ~2k after 30% buff.

    - Yes, melees without Smourne would be placed much lower at the graph, but you can't honestly say it's a rare weapon now. I know one guild at my realm have 6 Smourners and their tanks working on next ones, they aren't even Top100 guild.
    Some people still rank here and there without it. Actually I think some of Bluedeep's 2 month-old parses are still top 10(tribute to skill>gear, right?), but yeah. Swoelol is up there quite a bit without Smourne and Requital was ranking quite a few times before getting his, but other than that....rest are likely Smourne because they don't have the raid DPS of Adept nor Exodus. My only issue is that it's balancing this comparison around the fact that 2H melee have a legendary. Although it's pretty common for some guilds, it's not for others. In fact my guild only has 3 and exodus is ranked us #6th.

    I guess my point is all comparisons will be skewed around this fact. Even the top 200 comparisons are skewed as hell, because they all put the other classes on the same playing field as legendary users and use that as a basis for comparison. Not to downplay the comparison, especially since I'd easily take anything over what wow.com does for their "comparison", but it's only really accurate for the 2H melee users if they have Smourne. I can't look at a comparison like this and say, "well dammit I'm 2k under the average....wow, I must be really under performing!".

  19. #39
    The Patient arioc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gratlim View Post
    In a perfect world, we should never have hybrids on the top, an us poor warlocks should be in the top 4 with rogues, hunter, mages. Now with this graph we clearly see they are outperformed by hybrids (3 plates wearers and cats). They better fix that in Cat.
    /cry
    Warlocks have indeed ben nurfed to much.
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  20. #40
    Pandaren Monk
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    Buff cats pl0x

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