Thread: Fist weapons?

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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    http://www.wowwiki.com/Agility maybe that'll explain it to ya.

    Also I am not sure if AP will remain on weapons or if they are still waiting to itemize some stuff, as you can see from: http://cata.wowhead.com/item=55043 from the list you gave.

    Really I'm not exactly getting what your argument is here. Although I agree, it does look like ol' Thaussy is givin' us the 1-finger salute.
    Currently, weapons and armor with agility have four dps stats, and stam. In Cata, they will have three dps stats (and stam) just like current strength gear. This is why some agility pieces are so much better than the strength equivalent.

    I don't think you understand the point of the weapon you linked, it has AP, crit, and mastery. THREE dps stats.

    (That WoWWiki article has some major flaws in it as well.)

    [11:50:45] Earthmender Duarn says: Shamanistic healing is a complex art. You can't just chain heal all day.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Foibles View Post
    Currently, weapons and armor with agility have four dps stats, and stam. In Cata, they will have three dps stats (and stam) just like current strength gear. This is why some agility pieces are so much better than the strength equivalent.

    I don't think you understand the point of the weapon you linked, it has AP, crit, and mastery. THREE dps stats.

    (That WoWWiki article has some major flaws in it as well.)
    Actually ALL agility weapons will have 4 stats still and when used for tanking purposes will have 5. This is because agility gives crit and dodge, the stat won't show but it will still be there.

    The reason I linked the weapon is because it still retained AP, which makes it good for anyone. Also I'm aware why so many agility items are better than the strength equivalent, thanks. I'm also aware that there will be MANY times where we'll still be using a strength 1-hander or 2-hander on our plate dps characters. While I doubt that the agility weapon will be the best in slot, I do think that it will often be best available upgrade. This is especially true of weapons with sockets.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    Actually ALL agility weapons will have 4 stats still and when used for tanking purposes will have 5. This is because agility gives crit and dodge, the stat won't show but it will still be there.

    The reason I linked the weapon is because it still retained AP, which makes it good for anyone. Also I'm aware why so many agility items are better than the strength equivalent, thanks. I'm also aware that there will be MANY times where we'll still be using a strength 1-hander or 2-hander on our plate dps characters. While I doubt that the agility weapon will be the best in slot, I do think that it will often be best available upgrade. This is especially true of weapons with sockets.
    Agility currently gives Death Knights crit. In Cata, this may not even be true anymore. When Agi gear has only crit (Agility), and two other green stats, it will need to be a FAR higher itemlevel to be better than the strength item.

    [11:50:45] Earthmender Duarn says: Shamanistic healing is a complex art. You can't just chain heal all day.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Foibles View Post
    Agility currently gives Death Knights crit. In Cata, this may not even be true anymore. When Agi gear has only crit (Agility), and two other green stats, it will need to be a FAR higher itemlevel to be better than the strength item.
    Yes, because no one would ever want to take Bloodfall or the Betrayer of Humanity at level.

    While I agree the large amount of AP we gain from strength is amazing for DKs, translating directly into higher disease damage, still almost every single one of our attacks is tied to weapon damage and a much higher portion of our total DPS. As such we will go with the one with the highest average weapon damage since it will translate into stronger hits and while the loss of the AP is going to suck it's NOT going to be significant to our AP total as a whole.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    Yes, because no one would ever want to take Bloodfall or the Betrayer of Humanity at level.

    While I agree the large amount of AP we gain from strength is amazing for DKs, translating directly into higher disease damage, still almost every single one of our attacks is tied to weapon damage and a much higher portion of our total DPS. As such we will go with the one with the highest average weapon damage since it will translate into stronger hits and while the loss of the AP is going to suck it's NOT going to be significant to our AP total as a whole.
    Barring the stupid BoH method, I doubt agility weapons will be superior to strength weapons without being a fair number of item levels ahead.

    Other than needing a hit weapon to get capped, it will be very unlikely anyone will take an at level agility weapon over a strength weapon. This goes for Rets and Warriors too.

    [11:50:45] Earthmender Duarn says: Shamanistic healing is a complex art. You can't just chain heal all day.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Foibles View Post
    Barring the stupid BoH method, I doubt agility weapons will be superior to strength weapons without being a fair number of item levels ahead.

    Other than needing a hit weapon to get capped, it will be very unlikely anyone will take an at level agility weapon over a strength weapon. This goes for Rets and Warriors too.
    At level, well maybe, maybe not. As I said I don't think that agility weapons will be BiS, but I do think there will be many times where though the item level isn't that different you end up taking the agility weapon because the damage range is higher.

    Which is why I brought up Bloodfall, which I believe ranks 4th in BiS or so for non-heroic weapons.

    What it comes down to is that while AP through strength is a good stat it's dwarfed pretty massively by weapon damage. This gap between AP and weapon damage is only going to get larger in Cat where our strikes become an even larger portion of our dps over diseases.

  7. #67
    Frost DK base their weapon choice on the Base dmg after that they look at the secondary stats (Hit/Crit/haste/Arp) Agi doesnt matter.
    For Hunter they base their weapons on the stats and the weap dmg doesnt matter.
    I think its also a way to let less loot get sharded or be useless (remember de SP/Healing back in BC)
    Rogues/dk&Shaman/Hunter all can use the same weapon now, its blizz idea back in the days to make loot more usefull for multiple classes.
    I dont think we will see alot of STR 1 handers in general in CATA and still will be using at least at some points agi weaps for the base dmg, but we might not
    take them over a rogue/shaman but we for sure are equal with them to hunters

  8. #68
    Deleted
    Not quite a Death Knight, but it's how I'd imagine a DK Dual-wielding fist weapons.

    http://www.coolminiornot.com/pics/pi...969b77b22c.jpg

    (offtopic) how come [img width=300 height=300]http://www.coolminiornot.com/pics/pics12/img47b969b77b22c.jpg[/img] doesn't work for here? the pic was a bit large for my liking, but was unable to size it down (or thunbnail it)

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by niteline View Post
    I dont think we will see alot of STR 1 handers in general in CATA
    DW Frost DKs, SMF Fury Warriors, Warrior tanks, and Paladin tanks will all want slow 1h weapons with strength. With the removal of Heroic strike as on next swing, Prot Warriors want slow weapons.

    1h Strength weapons will probably be common enough.

    [11:50:45] Earthmender Duarn says: Shamanistic healing is a complex art. You can't just chain heal all day.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    This doesn't change the fact that a piece of gear with agility, haste and mastery on it technically also has Crit on it. Which still makes it a worthwhile weapon for a Warrior or DK.

    There WILL come times where a weapon will drop for a DW Frost or SMF Fury that will be a definite upgrade over the AP that a strength weapon will provide. This may be because it contains no other tertiary stats and is a proc weapon (see: black bruise) or it may just have a much better damage range and slower speed (see the level 60 1-hander axes: ttp://www.wowhead.com/item=18828) or possibly both. (See the Deathbringer and level 80 counterparts: http://www.wowhead.com/item=17068).

    Also remember that they've removed pretty much every single talent in the game that made strength scale up for everyone. No more additional 25% strength for warriors in 'zerker stance and so on, so while everything is going to need retuning that does lead to a pretty darn heavy hit to AP gains, as well as the AP gain from weapons is definitely a much smaller source of damage than the comparative weapon damage and the stats the weapon offers.
    There are still talents for DK's which boost strength.
    But other than that, Blizzard stated so damn many times they don't want people to pick the "wrong" gear anymore. They want plate users to take strength items, they want leather/mail users to go for agility.
    That's also one of the biggest reasons they removed AP as a passive stat.
    Besides that, in your example of an item with agi/mastery/haste, sure that gives a little crit (I'm sure it won't be much hence the fact above) and sure you could use it, but be fair, would you _REALLY_ want that?
    Sure if you go from a blue quest weapon with str to an epic raid drop with agi on it, you'd take it. But that's a bit extreme, it's more realistic to compare 2 items of the same itemlevel, and I'm quite sure that people who will pick an agi item over a str item are failing big time.
    Also, all the comments about warriors and fist weapons, that's just bullshit as well. Sure they can use it, but Blizzard doesn't want them to actually use it. Warriors can also use staffs and hey, there are staffs in game with agi/ap on it! But do you actually ever see a warrior using one? Have you ever seen a tank using a fist weapon?
    There is a big difference between what people CAN use and what Blizzard wants/expects you to use.
    And to me you really seem like a person who just takes whatever he can for with as only motivation "because I can use it"

    Oh and besides that about an earlier post I made about how warriors and DKs are supposed to knock their enemies away with massive strength, that's not my opinion or my point of view, that's the actual lore.
    Your way of thinking, on how a warrior can kill you with whatever he sees, now thats more of a personal opinion rather than lore. Heck you even call your own DK "sneaky" ... yaa.... ok... we're so sneaky... we sure have stuff light stealth, vanish, feign death, traps, pick pocket, sap, backstab, and other real sneaky moves. All the abilities we have are right in your face, heck we have a death grip to pull somebody right in front of us to smack them down. Now that's not really sneaky is it ?
    Last edited by Exclusive; 2010-09-01 at 04:10 PM.

  11. #71
    Keyboard Turner Garimi's Avatar
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    As a DK for my main, mostly speccd in Frost (with enough unholy to set my ghoul up for soloing) I wanted the master of arms #4 to be UNARMED. AND I wanted fist weapons to enhance that.
    Earlier it was mentioned you dont see many using Fist Weapons. Not that many worth having that are not BoP. And loot frenzy often misses someone able to use it and it gets greed or disenchanted.

    And the lore mentioned? I think PUMMELING someone to DEATH is pretty much an awesome scarey display of strength and cold ferocity......
    My character is always in your face-what more in your face than fists? I have a runic axe, why not a runic knuckle? Runes are not the SIZE (a rapier can have runes and axe blade).

    I can imagine my character sheathing a sword to look coldly down on the coming mob...
    "trash like you are not worth sullying my blade.." [>crack knuckles< and put on Shock and Awe]
    "come here for a free lesson in slow meaty death"

    AS it is I was so disappointed when almost maxxed for level, I couldnt get the training for fist (since it is unarmed-ALL toons using unarmed should be trainable!) especially since there is an achievement based on unarmed. And without fist weapons the player is handicapped during leveling.
    I went from 73-76 pummeling most of Howling Fjord and bringing my blade out for bosses. Now still cant equip the nice stuff I scored and put away? >sniff-sniffle<

    Honorable? Fair fighting? I'll leave that to my Paladin and Holy Priest or any character higher level than opponents.

    And I play for fun! So I should pick whatever weapon I wanna use (within reason...no need for a wand if I am not a caster nor range weapons since I am a up close dealer of death though I think racials should come in play-A NE should be able to use bows always kinda stuff)
    If I am doing PvP or Heroics somedays after done leveling mains, THEN I'll worry about different gear specs.
    For roleplay I just look for certain looking items. Wouldnt worry in roleplay about fist weapons since they would sheath in a pocket.
    Even if graphics for elite level things always make it big, would you REALLY call a 6 ft long poker a "dagger"?
    And how about a duel brawl where both opponents have bare knuckles...that would be cool to see!

    Tomorrow I'll see how the new trees and spells change my characters. My single tree toons will prolly be alright. But the split trees are gonna take adjusting. And though personally I reeeely want it. Technically as UNARMED skill -I say ALL classes should get fist weapons- only a few will actually equip them anyway.
    My 50 cents on it all (was looking to see why I couldn't equip...and ran over this)

  12. #72
    thread necro was needed
    “He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.”

    Quote Originally Posted by BatteredRose View Post
    They're greedy soulless monsters for not handing me everything for my 15 moneys a month!

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Albert the fish View Post
    thread necro was needed
    Aww come on, it didn't even start to decompose, I mean it's only 1 month dead!
    Seriously we shouldn't be spamming in a thread like this ^^

  14. #74
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Albert the fish View Post
    thread necro was needed
    Some people just can't win, can they? If he started a new thread, people would flame him for not doing a simple search to see there was already a topic on this discussion.

  15. #75
    I see no reason as to why DK's CAN'T use a fist wep. Most of the arguments I've seen against us having them have been for reasons such as: it doesn't fit the DK style/real life knights would never use them/they aren't intimidating. I don't understand how any of those can be actual arguments. Sure, some big guy covered in metal armor swinging around an axe bigger than him is pretty damn scary, but I think that same guy beating the life out of someone is as scary, especially with the fist weps of WoW (I'm looking at you Black Bruise/Calamity's Grasp). This is a game, so I would like to play it the way I want. I don't see why they couldn't simply itemize some fist weps for str and give us the ability to use them. It would open up fist weps to SMF warriors too.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Skellyton View Post
    I see no reason as to why DK's CAN'T use a fist wep. Most of the arguments I've seen against us having them have been for reasons such as: it doesn't fit the DK style/real life knights would never use them/they aren't intimidating. I don't understand how any of those can be actual arguments. Sure, some big guy covered in metal armor swinging around an axe bigger than him is pretty damn scary, but I think that same guy beating the life out of someone is as scary, especially with the fist weps of WoW (I'm looking at you Black Bruise/Calamity's Grasp). This is a game, so I would like to play it the way I want. I don't see why they couldn't simply itemize some fist weps for str and give us the ability to use them. It would open up fist weps to SMF warriors too.
    The Overlord in Overlord is a pretty scary guy, too. Big balls of fire (or steel) are also pretty intimidating. This is a game, so I would like to play it the way I want, too. I don't see why they couldn't simply let them scale with AP and give us the ability to use them.

    See what I did there?

    It's the same limitation why druids get instant flight form and why shamans wear mail.
    A deathknight is knight, entering combat fully armored wielding a sword/axe/mace/polearm.
    Paladins don't use fists or daggers either.

    Arms warriors would never use some puny weapon like these. And fury warriors (SMF) are a whole different storry. Remember that infamous quote from Ghostcrawler "The Arms warrior has pet names for all his weapons, while the Fury warrior shows up for battle drunk and half clothed.".

    From my own PoV I like the unarmed fighting style of my human female and I wouldn't mind wearing fist weapons if they are like http://www.wowhead.com/item=37631 but it would really suck to be running around with those ugly things that ICC offers us. To me, fist weapons have "shaman" written all over them. So I would rather not have my DK run around with them...

  17. #77
    Miss Doctor Lady Bear Sunshine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert the fish View Post
    thread necro was needed
    Certainly not.

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