Hard Content?

[Neythas]

Considering that I've seen groups wipe in the Throne of Tides on the first boss because they try to attack her when she has her waterspout barrier up... lawl.

It'll be a shocker for some people but those that have any decent amount of intelligence will get by. I can certainly see a few instances being a pain in the ass a la Shadow Labs / Arcatraz was in TBC before people started getting into Tier 5 gear.

[jegerlee]

If the Cataclysm-instances are like the ICC ones it will be all fine, stuff like those 2 packs of Ymirjar mobs on that ramp after Crick & Ick in "Pit of Saron", one high-DPS caster that needs to be downed ASAP, those 2 hellfire/fireball casters that would do well to be interrupted and 2 damage-sponges to pad the DPS-meters on :P

That would be fun, but please not the "5 minutes of marking, planning and waiting for pats to move out of aggro-range per trash-pack" of BC heroics, 5 minutes per bloody pack added up to a LOT of tedium over a whole heroic...

Heroics are when it all comes down to it emblem-farming content after all, raids are for the bigger challenges WoW offers.

It will be a reality. Not 5 min, but you definately have to use CC when you enter f.ex. Stonecore eventhough you might have a mix of 264/277 gear. Unless they tone it down in live, many players are going to be surprised of the dmg and HP of the mobs.

Taken from www.worldofraids.com:

Cataclysm Raids & Dungeons


* The balance of high level content (heroics and raids especially) for Cataclysm is going to shift a bit more towards the "hardcore" crowd. Outdoor mob difficulty, heroic modes available immediately, etc.
* There's a bit more enforced progression so that most players don't skip immediately from normal dungeons to raids.
* Chilton wishes there could be more difficulty modes for raids than just normal and heroic. Maybe 3 or 4 modes to offer appropriate challenges. It's not something they can do right now, but he can imagine them doing it in the future.
* Blizzard will continue supporting 25-player raids for the people that like it. They're also going to make sure 25-player raids are appropriately rewarded. At least equivalently, and in most cases better rewarded.

[Neythas]

* Chilton wishes there could be more difficulty modes for raids than just normal and heroic. Maybe 3 or 4 modes to offer appropriate challenges. It's not something they can do right now, but he can imagine them doing it in the future.

Freya/Assembly of Iron/Yogg are a perfect example of how they could manage this.

WTB the Ulduar hardmode model.

[Deleted]

hoR isn't hard, its the retarded moron's you play with that make it hard.

This.

Last time I got HoR, one of our dps managed to get himself locked out behind the closing door. So we had to 4-man the first 2 bosses. Thankfully we had a somewhat geared tank and a competent healer.

[Neythas]

This.

Last time I got HoR, one of our dps managed to get himself locked out behind the closing door. So we had to 4-man the first 2 bosses. Thankfully we had a somewhat geared tank and a competent healer.

Could've been that they weren't ready for the pull though. Some tanks zerg into things without so much asking if folks are ready/doing a readycheck.

[Gilian]

With the beta still in progress, it is tough to say. At Gamescom, Tom(?) Chilton said that Cata end-game content would be tuned a bit more towards hardcore, to include end-game zones, heroics, raids. I am sure that there will be many different opinions on what that will exactly mean.

From my own experience (I have played since vanilla, doing 10-man ICC HM's, working on LK in 25's)The content is a bit more challenging, but I wouldn't say hard.

Overall, I expect the raids to be tuned a bit harder for one key reason-so fewer guilds will burn through the content as absurdly fast as they did in LK. Blizzard has not emphasized their desire that everyone see all the content in Cata, as they did in LK, so we'll have to wait and see.

So far, I've done Blackrock Caverns & Throne of the Tides...bugs aside, they are tuned to the point where you actually should, at the least, focus-fire targets as opposed to AoE, and using CC does help, on trash. We were all in gear between 251-277; most of the 272-288 gear is close or better on some stats, but few are better overall, after you factor in enchants, gems, and tier bonuses.

Questing is interesting. My mage can easily 1 or 2 shot almost every normal mob in Icecrown, and I had little trouble with the beta 80's, but he is in full raid gear; by the time I was fighting the 82's, I had to pay attention, had to use things like counterspell & polymorph, etc. You can take one or two mobs ok, maybe 3 if you have your cooldowns, but after that....some of them hit pretty hard. I haven't really done any other questing to compare classes on that score.

That sounds good. The quests in wotlk were really cool but way too easy. You could almost solo every group quest. Especially classes that can take some damage (paladins, hunters with pets).

And dungeons where you have to CC and focus fire mobs down is how this game is meant to be. So I am very happy this comes back. AoEing everything in heroic dungeons with blue gear was just ridiculous. Yes we never had to use CC.

I hope they make hardmodes a little bit more interesting then they are now. ToC and ICC were quite boring, except for Anub and LK.

[Templar]

normal mode is supposed to be faceroll

You should only come to this conclusion if you experienced the game since WotLK. This wasn't the case in vanilla or TBC. Normal dungeons were a challenge but not too difficult (needed CC and some co-ord) and then heroic modes were hard.

[MFDOOM]

I have seen the bosses and they look as hard as Wrath dungeons did when they came out. Don't bullshit me, healing regular Utgarde Keep with the Warrior and the Necromancer was hell. In normal dungeons, one had to pay attention to mechanics like dispelling or stunning the certain problem giver, like Spellflingers in Old Kingdom or interrupt the heals of the Drakonids in the Nexus.

I don't understand why content is supposed to be hard when one outgears it by 2-3 tiers of gear. This is why WoTLK Heroic bosses have certain mechanics that are forced to follow, IE Herald's insanity, Anomalous' rifts, the first boss in Old kingdom, the point is made. There is no way to make people do the boss fight as intended unless you make the mechanics more straightforward and forced. At launch, Halls of Lightning heroic was huge on being careful otherwise one'd get oneshot. The Vanguards are still group wipers if a tank pulls too many and blames the healer for wiping. But god forbid groups steamroll through content that they heavily outgear!

Content should be accessible by everyone. There is no reason not to put a heroic mode in for people who want a bigger challenge, and letting the majority of the WoW community have fun with normal mode content.

[janett1]

Oh my god.. you mean.. people have to put thought, or a little effort into completing a dungeon?! What is this nonsense, It can't be World of Warcraft.. surely?

I hate anyone who complains that 5 mans are too hard. It's people like you that are getting the game dumbed down far too much.

[Emothianes]

Content should be accessible by everyone. There is no reason not to put a heroic mode in for people who want a bigger
challenge, and letting the majority of the WoW community have fun with normal mode content.

QFFT (Yes, it needs the second F)

[Sting]

You should only come to this conclusion if you experienced the game since WotLK. This wasn't the case in vanilla or TBC. Normal dungeons were a challenge but not too difficult (needed CC and some co-ord) and then heroic modes were hard.

To be honest, when they removed the possibility to raid stratholme/scholomance/lbrs/ubrs as 10/10/10/15 raids respectively, it became pretty hard for some people, before that it was pretty easy.
But to the point, heroic mode raid content has only been available since WotLK (with the exception of Eredar Twins reverse kill order and a few others), which might explain why alot of fights were too easy. This leads people to assume that since the heroics are already pretty easy, the normal modes should be a complete joke. I strongly hope that Blizzard will realise the mistake they made in making most fights so easy. After all, everybody wanting to see all the content should be able to do so, but they should just be prepared to put some effort into it instead of pressing their 2 button rotation like it usually goes nowadays.

[Gilian]

T10 is A LOT stronger compared to Wrath leveling gear than T6 was to BC leveling gear.

Do you really believe that's the problem? In wotlk I have NEVER used CC or seen someone using it. Blue gear, 4 mobs? 5 mobs? whatever just AoE the tank won't die anyway.

---------- Post added 2010-08-31 at 08:47 AM ----------

I have seen the bosses and they look as hard as Wrath dungeons did when they came out. Don't bullshit me, healing regular Utgarde Keep with the Warrior and the Necromancer was hell. In normal dungeons, one had to pay attention to mechanics like dispelling or stunning the certain problem giver, like Spellflingers in Old Kingdom or interrupt the heals of the Drakonids in the Nexus.

I don't understand why content is supposed to be hard when one outgears it by 2-3 tiers of gear. This is why WoTLK Heroic bosses have certain mechanics that are forced to follow, IE Herald's insanity, Anomalous' rifts, the first boss in Old kingdom, the point is made. There is no way to make people do the boss fight as intended unless you make the mechanics more straightforward and forced. At launch, Halls of Lightning heroic was huge on being careful otherwise one'd get oneshot. The Vanguards are still group wipers if a tank pulls too many and blames the healer for wiping. But god forbid groups steamroll through content that they heavily outgear!

Content should be accessible by everyone. There is no reason not to put a heroic mode in for people who want a bigger challenge, and letting the majority of the WoW community have fun with normal mode content.

Because interrupting one cast in a whole dungeon and not pulling too many mobs is hard.

The outgearing problem is caused by Blizzard self. You should not just give away T10 gear from heroics. Heroic 5 man dungeons are also there to let people get used to the game and learn some things. That's why you see people in T10 who don't have a clue how to play properly.

Just like VoA. Just stand there and cast some spells on the boss. If just 3 other dps know what is happening they will take care of the adds.

I would almost say that doesn't really make raiding accessible.

[MFDOOM]

Do you really believe that's the problem? In wotlk I have NEVER used CC or seen someone using it. Blue gear, 4 mobs? 5 mobs? whatever just AoE the tank won't die anyway.

---------- Post added 2010-08-31 at 08:47 AM ----------



Because interrupting one cast in a whole dungeon and not pulling too many mobs is hard.

The outgearing problem is caused by Blizzard self. You should not just give away T10 gear from heroics. Heroic 5 man dungeons are also there to let people get used to the game and learn some things. That's why you see people in T10 who don't have a clue how to play properly.

Just like VoA. Just stand there and cast some spells on the boss. If just 3 other dps know what is happening they will take care of the adds.

I would almost say that doesn't really make raiding accessible.

The purpose of the Spellflinger is to give some kind of depth to the trash.

I still don't think heroics should be hard. Besides, if your only source of Frost Emblems is heroics and you did the daily frost every day for a fucking month, you can have your t10 shoulders. I believe the method of Wrath is very efficient because it truly makes leveling alts a much more easier thing. Heroics shouldn't teach game mechanics, wiping on bosses to figure out their mechanics should teach you. The heroics system of gearing up, all in all, is based on an effort system for the less fortunate players to not have looked up character guides or be in good guilds to have told them how to play.

VoA isn't meant to be hard. It's meant to be a lottery. Baron Rivendere was a Dungeon Set legs Lottery boss in vanilla. There is a reason that he drops PvP gear, because some people might come to VoA in pvp gear and bring less than savory DPS or heals. I don't mind a loot lottery at all, especially when it's already happened previously.

Are you implying that just because an effort based gearing system for loot has easy content, that raiding is suddenly easy? People aren't good because of gear, but because they pay attention to raid mechanics while doing their DPS, healing their raid, or doing their tank job. You just implied that anybody can do LK 25H because anybody can get t10 from 2 frosts per day and VoA luck. Not to mention you just said

QUOTE]That's why you see people in T10 who don't have a clue how to play properly.[/QUOTE]

which is just hypocritical. Gear doesn't teach people raid mechanics, and raid mechanics are not steamrollable. If you got hit by Frost Bombs on Sindragosa with the buff off, you died. ICC10/25/10h/25h is a very, very nice raid. The buff just makes it easier for the less good guilds and raids and pugs to go through it. It was meant to be done with no buff, and was really hard in terms of raid damage, and some Beserk timers.

[Neythas]

The purpose of the Spellflinger is to give some kind of depth to the trash.

I still don't think heroics should be hard. Besides, if your only source of Frost Emblems is heroics and you did the daily frost every day for a fucking month, you can have your t10 shoulders. I believe the method of Wrath is very efficient because it truly makes leveling alts a much more easier thing. Heroics shouldn't teach game mechanics, wiping on bosses to figure out their mechanics should teach you. The heroics system of gearing up, all in all, is based on an effort system for the less fortunate players to not have looked up character guides or be in good guilds to have told them how to play.

Instances are where you learn threat management, how to crowd control, how to manage healing, line-of-sight pulling, how to manage mana and so forth. Heroics are difficult when at the proper gear level for them. They always will be. If you weren't meant to learn how to play the game in an instance/heroic instance then everything would be a tank-n-spank loot pinata like Archavon with trash pulls that could all be AOE'd down. Heroic instances are challenging; I learned my class in and out running things like heroic Steamvaults/Arcatraz/Shattered Halls and such in TBC. Sure, I learned a fair bit in their regular counterparts but heroics are a step up on the ladder from their counterparts. They will be challenging and depending on gear, difficult. And for those that want to faceroll through them, they'll have to wait until they can easily overgear them without running them.

I still think that heroic Utgarde Pinacle was one of the hardest heroics in the game -- when at the proper gear level (crafted gear/blues).

What screwed Wrath up was that say, as a tailor, the epics you could craft weren't worth anything compared to the tier 7 equiv loot you could get by steamrolling through Naxx 10 in... in Tier5/Tier6. From there it was just a spiraling effect of overgearing into the expansion (even before 3.1 was released).

But don't think that people shouldn't learn their class in instances because the hell if I'm taking someone into a raid environment who "needs to learn to play the game". Yes, reading theorycraft and class mechanics and stuff is what every aspiring player should do once or twice but that doesn't teach you how to play... it just gives you guidelines.

[Lucifersam]

I still don't think heroics should be hard. Besides, if your only source of Frost Emblems is heroics and you did the daily frost every day for a fucking month, you can have your t10 shoulders. I believe the method of Wrath is very efficient because it truly makes leveling alts a much more easier thing. Heroics shouldn't teach game mechanics, wiping on bosses to figure out their mechanics should teach you. The heroics system of gearing up, all in all, is based on an effort system for the less fortunate players to not have looked up character guides or be in good guilds to have told them how to play.

Ok fair enough, as long as the misnomer of "heroic" is done away with. The term "heroic dungeon" implies that defeating the denizens of such an area requires well.. heroism from adventurers brave enough to face the challenge.

I feel the term "Glorified Badge Tredmill" is probably more accurate to what this model of dungeon design actually is.

[Timrobbins]

Look at the current state of pugs and even "guilds" doing ICC. The content is easy (especially on normal mode) yet a vast majority of players still have no idea how to play their class or carry out a simple strategy to down a boss. Maybe most of the players started playing post Ulduar wotlk, idk, but it is still surprising to me. Any way blizzard can incorporate interesting and thought provoking mechanics into heroic 5 man encounters, even if trivial to anyone with half a brain, would be an improvement to the current 5-man gear farming system.

[MFDOOM]

Look at the current state of pugs and even "guilds" doing ICC. The content is easy (especially on normal mode) yet a vast majority of players still have no idea how to play their class or carry out a simple strategy to down a boss. Maybe most of the players started playing post Ulduar wotlk, idk, but it is still surprising to me. Any way blizzard can incorporate interesting and thought provoking mechanics into heroic 5 man encounters, even if trivial to anyone with half a brain, would be an improvement to the current 5-man gear farming system.

The content is not easy without the 30% buff and in appropriate gear. The raid damage looks trivial with the buff, but without it it's much more devastating. If the strategy was damage based for every heroic boss, it would be ignored and steamrolled and forgotten because of the effect of outgearing it. I have to point back at the old heroic bosses in my previous post to prove that the strategies are forced, like Tharon'ja's zombie conversion. At appropriate gear, staying in the poison would be suicide. Now if doesn't matter. Don't pretend you know what poison I'm talking about, you steamrolled over it in heroics without noticing.

Overall, Heroic is indeed a misnomer for Heroic Dungeons but the purpose is well carried out the way it is.

[Aethenor]

The purpose of the Spellflinger is to give some kind of depth to the trash.

I still don't think heroics should be hard. Besides, if your only source of Frost Emblems is heroics and you did the daily frost every day for a fucking month, you can have your t10 shoulders. I believe the method of Wrath is very efficient because it truly makes leveling alts a much more easier thing. Heroics shouldn't teach game mechanics, wiping on bosses to figure out their mechanics should teach you. The heroics system of gearing up, all in all, is based on an effort system for the less fortunate players to not have looked up character guides or be in good guilds to have told them how to play.

Heroics SHOULD teach game mechanics.

HEROICS should not be considered purely as a levelling up/prep for raiding thing. They are and should be a considered a separate aspect of END GAME in their own right, as they were in BC.

For example, if you didn't raid in BC, then Heroic dungeons were your end game experience and they were a fun, challenging one at that.

The way I see it, "End Game" should encompass many aspects - questing at max level (inc group quests in elite areas), 5 man Heroic dungeons, raids, world pvp, battlegrounds, arenas and world events.

WoW has become far too single minded in its approach to endgame. Now it's just raid, arena, bg or sit around in the major cities doing nothing or talking crap in trade.

Anyway, I think 5 man Heroics should have varying levels of difficulty (as they did in BC) and varying levels of length, but the random daily reward system for obtaining Badges needs to be revised.

[MAGAmobile]

I think they should do that as well. Heroics should be exactly what they say they are. Heroics shouldn't be easy to the point of where gear allows you to ignore mechanics in them (to a reasonable extent, a la standing in fires). They should teach the basics of raiding or be considered end game for people who may not have the time to raid. No attunements to get into them, either.

[Kickbuttmario]

The content is not easy without the 30% buff and in appropriate gear. The raid damage looks trivial with the buff, but without it it's much more devastating. If the strategy was damage based for every heroic boss, it would be ignored and steamrolled and forgotten because of the effect of outgearing it. I have to point back at the old heroic bosses in my previous post to prove that the strategies are forced, like Tharon'ja's zombie conversion. At appropriate gear, staying in the poison would be suicide. Now if doesn't matter. Don't pretend you know what poison I'm talking about, you steamrolled over it in heroics without noticing.

Overall, Heroic is indeed a misnomer for Heroic Dungeons but the purpose is well carried out the way it is.

I remember that poison well... I told everyone don't stand in it or else you will die. They die, they complain, Tharonja dies because its easy.....

They nerfed heroics because they thought people wouldn't be able to use their heads on it. Before heroics were fine. Yeah Utgarde Pinnacle was tough, third boss was definitely a challenge because people had to move, if they got stuck on the frost breat, then there is a chance of wipe. In HoL, the final boss was the only problem because people had to run away, too much damage going out and people would get 1 shotted if they didn't use their mouses to turn...

You get my point.