Please stop saying we won't use agility weapons in Cat.

[Shelly]

Quick point. Who uses 2 handed agi weapons? Hunters and druids, neither of which care about weapons speed so I'm guessing you will see fast polearms and staffs that will never be of any use to warriors as it won't unbalance the item. So some of this argument won't matter and str weapons will always be better barring huge ilevel gaps. Plus reforging makes the itemization argument go completely out the window. Have a weapon with way too much hit and none of that sweet sweet crit you want? Reforge the hit. A weapon with tons o crit but find yourself under the exp cap? Reforge it. ETC.

Fast offhands are NEVER better unless supported by a talent or ability (energy gen and poison application in rogues). Warriors have no offhand support talents, so fast offhands are not for you. Ever.

You're giving a LOT more credit to reforging than it deserves. I mean it's nice and all, very nice, but you're still giving up a stat for only 1/2 of another stat. It's not a panacea, it's a good think tool as far as your itemization goes.

Also the topic is about weapons, the reason I mentioned and use 2-handers in my example is because that's the boat we're in right now. In Cat they should do as you say, although I think a lot of the polearms will still end up around 3.4 speed or so because DK tanks may want a good survivability weapon with dodge and armor on it.

However we will have Shaman and Rogues looking at the 1-hander pool and if something has a high damage range with a slow speed then that's going to be the first thing looked at by Shaman, Rogue, DK or Warrior when considering if the weapon is an upgrade or not. The AP gain through Str/Agi will definitely determine what weapon is BiS, but from just an upgrade perspective you want the one that's going to hit like a mac truck.

[sicness]

Too bad AP on a weapon matters much less than speed and damage range. And I'll be more than happy to take it if it's an upgrade and so will you.

The most likely times when this will occur will be when going from one tier to another, but don't discount minor upgrades between say a normal weapon and a heroic weapon.

And like I said, if it's a significant ilvl upgrade a plate wearer will take it, however for the most part minor upgrades won't be worth the complete AP loss of using an AGI item.

Gaining 20-50 top end damage could very likely not even be close to worth losing as little as 20 STR on an item, and that's being generous. So again, unless it's a signficant top end upgrade for players the top end damage gain won't be worth the AP loss.

We don't yet know stats will be like on weapons in cataclysm yet, so it's silly to assume right now, but for the most part a STR weapon will be highly valued over an AGI weapon simply because of the zero AP gained from the AGI weapon.

[Gressil]

I don't get what you're saying OP and you are making a lot of mistakes when comparing items.

First of all, there is still a 5% coefficient for strength which you didn't account for, and it comes from wearing all plate armor.
Second of all why are you comparing a 271 agility weapon with a 264 strength weapon? Seems a bit stupid to me.

http://cata.wowhead.com/item=51946
vs
http://cata.wowhead.com/item=50425
vs
http://cata.wowhead.com/item=50070

if you like don't compare it to Glorenzelg because it has a stat which caps (expertise) and it's not so optimal. What about the other 2? Which is optimal?

Jesus, some people whine for no reason.

[Shelly]

I don't get what you're saying OP and you are making a lot of mistakes when comparing items.

First of all, there is still a 5% coefficient for strength which you didn't account for, and it comes from wearing all plate armor.
Second of all why are you comparing a 271 agility weapon with a 264 strength weapon? Seems a bit stupid to me.

http://cata.wowhead.com/item=51946
vs
http://cata.wowhead.com/item=50425
vs
http://cata.wowhead.com/item=50070

if you like don't compare it to Glorenzelg because it has a stat which caps (expertise) and it's not so optimal. What about the other 2? Which is optimal?

Jesus, some people whine for no reason.

Hardly think it's a whine, but oh well, if that's your impression.

Also I presume you read that part about "5% strength in all plate ARMOR?"

We're talking about weapons here. Since weapons =/= armor I think we're in the clear.

Here's a better example for you, same item level, different tiers:

http://www.wowhead.com/item=47911

or

http://www.wowhead.com/item=45165

Even without AP which would you choose?

[MortalWombat]

Even without AP which would you choose?

Worldcarver hands down. The ArP will become crit so its a haste/crit/agility weapon vs a haste/exp/str weapon. The .1 speed and crit doesn't make up for the fact that it has 0 AP.

Also I presume you read that part about "5% strength in all plate ARMOR?"

We're talking about weapons here. Since weapons =/= armor I think we're in the clear.

You're not seeing the point here, the fact is the str on the weapon still benefits from the 5% extra. If it was 100 str would be treated like 105.

[sicness]

Worldcarver hands down. The ArP will become crit so its a haste/crit/agility weapon vs a haste/exp/str weapon. The .1 speed and crit doesn't make up for the fact that it has 0 AP.

Exactly, you can't compare current weapons because the stats you think matter are going away in cataclysm. No more ARP and no more AP on weapons, therefor STR weapons will be considerably more dps than AGI weapons for plate wearers.

[Shelly]

Worldcarver hands down. The ArP will become crit so its a haste/crit/agility weapon vs a haste/exp/str weapon. The .1 speed and crit doesn't make up for the fact that it has 0 AP.


You're not seeing the point here, the fact is the str on the weapon still benefits from the 5% extra. If it was 100 str would be treated like 105.

OK, so we'll start with this formula: http://www.wowwiki.com/Ap

This means the Carver has 262 AP with the 5% addition (You're right, I did miss that point on the 5% more strength). So 262 AP which is an additional 18 dps.

Somehow I don't think an additional 18 dps is going to be greater than all your instant attacks that use weapon damage hitting for roughly 25 more damage.

So overpower, mortal strike, whirlwind, revenge, devastate, heroic strike, colossus smash, etc.

[Gressil]

Shelly:

Yes, if you wear all plate ARMOR you get +5% Strength across the board, not only on your armor pieces. I don't get why it's not relevant? It's +5% to everything, i.e. more AP for you.

And second of all, how about more proper comparisons?

http://www.wowhead.com/item=47911 (Higher tier)
vs
http://www.wowhead.com/item=45521
http://www.wowhead.com/item=45868
http://www.wowhead.com/item=46067
(Lower tiers)

which would you choose?

It IS whining. I'm sorry. And don't compare A CLEAR DK TANKING WEAPON like worldcarver with something else about dps.

[Shelly]

Shelly:

Yes, if you wear all plate ARMOR you get +5% Strength across the board, not only on your armor pieces. I don't get why it's not relevant? It's +5% to everything, i.e. more AP for you.

And second of all, how about more proper comparisons?

http://www.wowhead.com/item=47911 (Higher tier)
vs
http://www.wowhead.com/item=45521
http://www.wowhead.com/item=45868
http://www.wowhead.com/item=46067
(Lower tiers)

which would you choose?

It IS whining. I'm sorry. And don't compare A CLEAR DK TANKING WEAPON like worldcarver with something else about dps.

Obviously I'd choose the one with the highest damage range.

Which is my entire point.

[Gressil]

Yes but the counter point is that in cataclysm all agility weapons will definitely have lower high-end damage for the exact same reason. I didn't disagree that a warrior would choose a weap just for it's higher end damage. I disaggreed with your choices. What you did was that you picked weapons that clearly favoured the point you were trying to make, but were not fair as comparisons. With fair comparisons like I presented you, you choose the STR weapons... which means = WIN? I don't care why you are complaining.

[Mixelphlick]

You're giving a LOT more credit to reforging than it deserves. I mean it's nice and all, very nice, but you're still giving up a stat for only 1/2 of another stat. It's not a panacea, it's a good think tool as far as your itemization goes.

Also the topic is about weapons, the reason I mentioned and use 2-handers in my example is because that's the boat we're in right now. In Cat they should do as you say, although I think a lot of the polearms will still end up around 3.4 speed or so because DK tanks may want a good survivability weapon with dodge and armor on it.

However we will have Shaman and Rogues looking at the 1-hander pool and if something has a high damage range with a slow speed then that's going to be the first thing looked at by Shaman, Rogue, DK or Warrior when considering if the weapon is an upgrade or not. The AP gain through Str/Agi will definitely determine what weapon is BiS, but from just an upgrade perspective you want the one that's going to hit like a mac truck.

Reforging is actually point for point, however you can only remove half of one stat it still makes for way better itemized weapons. True some things will outweigh it but it shines most when you only need some of something. Like say you need a little hit to be capped but a weapon comes with a metric ton of it, or none. Well now it has a little hit and a bit of something else which is exactly where you wanted it in the first place. No it doesn't take away all itemization problems but most of them right now come from armor pen because its SOOOOO above and beyond anything else for warriors and it shows up on alot of leather/agi pieces. Barring that hit and expertise are the only 2 things that can downplay the effectiveness, itemization wise, of a weapon and being able to reforge out of half of said hit or expertise is more than enough to fix alot of problems especially when you can also reforge your armor if you need to cover any small holes like still getting too much of either of those stats. Reforging is not just about the item in question as you can reforge anything. If getting some hit on a weapon is still too much you can just reforge out of some on other gear. It lets you play more directly with the stats on your gear than ever before and makes ideal itemization MUCH easier to hit.

As for one handers I see your point but I doubt blizzard is going to only make 1 slow 1hander per tier. There will be just as much access to slow str weapons as slow agi ones plus if blizz decides not to make any item pitfalls there won't be ANY fast str weapons because there is literally no market for them. Basically at that point any time you take an agi one hander its just a bit of candy to tide you over until the real weapon you want drops, and if you take that out from under a shaman your doing it wrong. Same thing holds true for them if they take your strength weapon they are just screwing you for a short term temporary gain. The real question though comes down to weapon procs. If some weapon like black bruise shows up with either no agi/str or with a strong enough proc to justify the other group using it then you've got a hell of an argument both ways. Thats really the only sticking point i see.

[Cadwe]

You shouldn't even include weapons from WotLK - nor even assume anything of the matter this "early" in the Beta.

i agree and btw your avatar is sooooo epic ... isthat Dad from newgrounds??

[Shelly]

Yes but the counter point is that in cataclysm all agility weapons will definitely have lower high-end damage for the exact same reason. I didn't disagree that a warrior would choose a weap just for it's higher end damage. I disaggreed with your choices. What you did was that you picked weapons that clearly favoured the point you were trying to make, but were not fair as comparisons. With fair comparisons like I presented you, you choose the STR weapons... which means = WIN? I don't care why you are complaining.

I'm complaining because I keep seeing warriors and death knights saying "well we won't ever use an agility weapon because Blizz said so."

Which is pretty darn incorrect as we'll be choosing the one with the best damage range, especially as we level up and choose upgrades when we move from one raid tier to another.

Also it's pretty silly of you to be saying that all agility weapons will have a lower high-end damage when you haven't seen them any more than I have.

[Gressil]

Also it's pretty silly of you to be saying that all agility weapons will have a lower high-end damage when you haven't seen them any more than I have.

If you check the current WoTLK's weapons on the database from MMO Champion you will notice a certain trend, along with the removal of ArP. That trend is that the agility weapons in a similar tier will have the same or lower high-end damage with strength weapons, the only difference between them will be in stats. I don't think they ever said you're not going to ever use agility weapons ever again. You are going to use it if you have a weapon from a lower tier. The thing is that the optimal weapon for you would be the one with STR. So not exactly lower-end than STR, but definitely not higher.

[MortalWombat]

OK, so we'll start with this formula: http://www.wowwiki.com/Ap

This means the Carver has 262 AP with the 5% addition (You're right, I did miss that point on the 5% more strength). So 262 AP which is an additional 18 dps.

Somehow I don't think an additional 18 dps is going to be greater than all your instant attacks that use weapon damage hitting for roughly 25 more damage.

So overpower, mortal strike, whirlwind, revenge, devastate, heroic strike, colossus smash, etc.

18 dps if you only auto attack maybe, but it becomes a lot more when you add in your abilities. Unless I did something wrong, that str makes your auto swing hit for 61 more damage with a 3.40, beating the crap out of the agility weapon.

[Shelly]

If you check the current WoTLK's weapons on the database from MMO Champion you will notice a certain trend, along with the removal of ArP. That trend is that the agility weapons in a similar tier will have the same or lower high-end damage with strength weapons, the only difference between them will be in stats. I don't think they ever said you're not going to ever use agility weapons ever again. You are going to use it if you have a weapon from a lower tier. The thing is that the optimal weapon for you would be the one with STR. So not exactly lower-end than STR, but definitely not higher.

Well the trend among polearms at least has been for them to be agility and at 3.4 to 3.6 speed, I think it's for Ferals which may have some abilities that work off of the weapon damage range, but I'm not sure. Also it makes the weapons attractive to DKs (especially for tanking) and for Arms warriors.

Anyway, I keep seeing folks saying how now that AP is off the table for most weapons that that's it, end of story. Which is rather unrealistic and doesn't take into account gearing up or going from one tier to another.

@Mixel, I'm not saying we should take any of these weapons over a class that they are better itemized for, but there's a lot of time where you are either in a raid where there is no one else to take that weapon, or you could end up with a Betrayer of Humanity issue where it's going to be a better stat-stick for someone else, but the weapon damage range makes it a clear upgrade for a warrior or DK, which while maybe temporary is still going to equal more raid damage than being just used as a stat stick.

[rzy]

i have no problem with str users taking agi weps from the view of a hunter/druid, just as long as you realise AGI prio YO!

[MortalWombat]

@Mixel, I'm not saying we should take any of these weapons over a class that they are better itemized for, but there's a lot of time where you are either in a raid where there is no one else to take that weapon, or you could end up with a Betrayer of Humanity issue where it's going to be a better stat-stick for someone else, but the weapon damage range makes it a clear upgrade for a warrior or DK, which while maybe temporary is still going to equal more raid damage than being just used as a stat stick.

Well that doesn't work for cata, Betrayer was BiS because there was no str equivalent of its ilvl in the tier. If there was a str 2hander of the same ilvl it would be pretty stupid to give the agility one to a melee that will upgrade to the str and then vendor the agility one while a hunter would use it until the next tier.

[sicness]

Well the trend among polearms at least has been for them to be agility and at 3.4 to 3.6 speed, I think it's for Ferals which may have some abilities that work off of the weapon damage range, but I'm not sure. Also it makes the weapons attractive to DKs (especially for tanking) and for Arms warriors.

Anyway, I keep seeing folks saying how now that AP is off the table for most weapons that that's it, end of story. Which is rather unrealistic and doesn't take into account gearing up or going from one tier to another.

@Mixel, I'm not saying we should take any of these weapons over a class that they are better itemized for, but there's a lot of time where you are either in a raid where there is no one else to take that weapon, or you could end up with a Betrayer of Humanity issue where it's going to be a better stat-stick for someone else, but the weapon damage range makes it a clear upgrade for a warrior or DK, which while maybe temporary is still going to equal more raid damage than being just used as a stat stick.

You're taking it so out of proportion. Yes when new tier comes out we'll be looking at the new weapons, even ones with AGI, but guess what, so will classes that gain 2 AP per AGI and therefor that upgrade is much better off for them. Your point is about being selfish and taking a minor upgrade for yourself over something that's a more significant upgrade for an AGI user. Serious raiders won't even consider it because they know there are items better itemized for themselves.

Your point stands that yes, in some circumstantial cases AGI weapons will be favored, but for the most part a plate wearer will be taking a STR weapon over an AGI one every day of the week unless it's a significant ilvl upgrade. However, for the majority of people an STR weapon is favored over an AGI one every time.

Stop using WotLK weapons as examples, because ALL of them have at least one stat (AP) that is being removed in cataclysm and therefor isn't relevant to this conversation.

[Ershiin]

I'm just wondering who the OP is trying to get his point across to?