The two faces of the horde.

[Phenomina]

Invading the Undercity was:

A) an act of aggression
B) an invasion of Horde territory.

The Alliance started this war.

A) It was an attack on an abandoned city.. Forsaken were forced out. We went there to kill Demons and rebel undead, not the Horde.

B)Horde terrirtory for the last 5 years but human territory for the 100+ years before that.

The Alliance didn't start any war. Get your facts straight. Lore says Undercity was not a declaration of war... YOU say it was.

I'm sorry but I'll have to go with the lore on this one...

[Galbrei]

Meh. And which side does the Doomhammer represent? He was the true manifestation of everything the Horde should be. You obvoiusly divide Horde into "good, peaceful orcs" and "bad, bloodthirsty orcs".

He represent the side that wants to preserve the identity and honor of the Horde itself, but has no problem with bashing some pink skulls in the process. I loved Orgrim because, unlike Thrall, he knew sometimes you just have to get your hands dirty to get the job done, and unlike Garrosh, he wasn't oligophrenic.
/R.I.P. Orgrim Doomhammer. We'll never have a warchief as good as you.

[HavokHeart]

If you still think Garrosh is a bad warchief then clearly you're not paying attention to lore at the moment, the only "bad/evil" leader is Sylvanas, and she is only seen as evil because people think war has rules.

There are always rules. But we are Zombies, Battle hardened Orcs, Trolls, Goblins, Power hungry BLOOD Elves, and nasty smelling cows. What do you expect?

[Wysard]

A) It was an attack on an abandoned city.. Forsaken were forced out. We went there to kill Demons and rebel undead, not the Horde.

Still, it was Horde territory. I guess we could have an army ready in case things get too out of hand in IF. You know, to lend a hand.

B)Horde terrirtory for the last 5 years but human territory for the 100+ years before that.

Still human territory...undead humans, but still.

The Alliance didn't start any war. Get your facts straight. Lore says Undercity was not a declaration of war... YOU say it was.

I'm sorry but I'll have to go with the lore on this one...

I like the old saying, actions speak louder than words.

Also, having not read Stormrage, can anyone who has please provide a small quote where it states that the Alliance didn't declare war?

I wonder, I know Blizz has canonized the whole WotA thing, but has there been anything official on this latest work? I further wonder, if the upcoming novel Shattered states something different from Stormrage, since it is newer, is it more canonical?

Speaking of lore from the novel Phen, where do you speculate Rhonin's raptor army will be? Twilight Highlands or at Mt. Hyjal?

[Omanley]

the orcs now hoping for war are young douchebags not knowing what they´re doing. the ones who know experienced it themselves and are veterans through the first and second war.

saurfang (old horde), garrosh(new horde)

grom and thrall are exceptions. although a war veteran, grom had not learned from his mistakes, and thrall, despite not being part of orc history, learned much more about their faults.

that aside, orcs were warriors back on draenor as well. they fought for honor, and for sheer survival against ogres, gronns and other monstrosities and threats. orcs are not small and sneaky, good at engineering or magics, when they have to deal with a problem it´s through spiritualistic support and/or sheer muscle power.

that being said, in a world where the only constant is war, you cant expect a warrior race to not wage war. and having their main base in durotar, where everything is barren, it´s obvious thei´re gonna invade azshara for wood, and confront with the night elves there.

[Sarog]

B)Horde terrirtory for the last 5 years but human territory for the 100+ years before that.

That's stupid. Land isn't owned racially. Land is owned by states. The state of Lordaeron collapsed, there was a "civil war" among the members of the former state, one side prevailed and laid claim to the land. Your faction doesn't own anything and everything that is/was associated with its member races.

[Zhangfei]

A) It was an attack on an abandoned city.. Forsaken were forced out. We went there to kill Demons and rebel undead, not the Horde.

B)Horde terrirtory for the last 5 years but human territory for the 100+ years before that.

The Alliance didn't start any war. Get your facts straight. Lore says Undercity was not a declaration of war... YOU say it was.

I'm sorry but I'll have to go with the lore on this one...

Lore doesn't say anything about a declaration of war by anyone, so I presume that, as such a superb loremaster, you'll have to accept that nobody started it (except for the Alliance who marched into the Barrens before the Cataclysm hit and the UC long before that.)

And the UC wasn't abandoned. It was evacuated. Moscow wasn't "abandoned" in WWII by Russia, it wasn't left to fend for itself because of invasion and somehow given non-national status, it was evacuated to screw the Germans over. Part and parcel of war - even internal issues - is moving civilians out of harm's way.

Sylvanas never officially abandoned it, as the Horde didn't, so it was Horde territory. And the Alliance lost Lordaeron to the same individuals who inhabited it. Just because the undead don't happen to like the racist Alliance nations who wanted to stomp on them after being their allies for centuries before that just because of pesky undeath, doesn't mean that they lose their right to exist where they had lived previously.

Naughty, naughty, war-mongering Alliance.

[BallsofThunder]

you can have thrall if we get....umm oh wait there's no character worthy of joining the horde in the alliance.

I would take Muradin. (Hes pretty damn badass.)

---------- Post added 2010-09-01 at 04:28 PM ----------

A) It was an attack on an abandoned city.. Forsaken were forced out. We went there to kill Demons and rebel undead, not the Horde.

B)Horde terrirtory for the last 5 years but human territory for the 100+ years before that.

The Alliance didn't start any war. Get your facts straight. Lore says Undercity was not a declaration of war... YOU say it was.

I'm sorry but I'll have to go with the lore on this one...

I have the utmost respect for you and your determination, my friend. (No sarcasm intended.) But I disagree. Did Varian not notice Vol'jin standing outside? Im sure he saw him at some point, and like a smart man posted a while ago, it was an evacuation, not an abandonment. Im not trying to make anyone mad hear im just stating my opinion.

BallsofThunder: putin' it politly since 87'.

[Carpenter]

It's a shame that Thrall's hard work and effort is going to be completely undone by the Garrosh ( head ) of the Horde.

Good for pvp and conflicts though, bad for those claiming the Horde are on a path to redemption.

The new Horde doesn't drink demonblood? Garrosh is extremely anti-demon. How have they fallen from redemption. Garrosh is how normal Orcs think... Grom, Doomhammer, and etc all think like Garrosh. Thrall was the abnormal one.

[Haven]

A) It was an attack on an abandoned city.. Forsaken were forced out. We went there to kill Demons and rebel undead, not the Horde.

Well, then there's no problem with Forsaken taking Gilneas. It's abandoned, 'cause Gilneans now live in Darnassus, so...

B)Horde terrirtory for the last 5 years but human territory for the 100+ years before that.

Da troll land for millenia. Yo 'point, mon?

The Alliance didn't start any war.

Yeah, those steam ships in Durotar, Barrens invasion, etc, are simply fanfics by Blizzard. Oh wait...

Besides, get your facts straight, as one les appealing charcter on these forums said.
1. Alliance deploys in Durotar
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...durotar_28.jpg
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...durotar_29.jpg
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...durotar_30.jpg
2. Alliance pushes to Barrens, breaks through Honor's Stand, besieges Crossroads
http://s1189.photobucket.com/albums/...nt=Kilrok1.jpg
http://s1189.photobucket.com/albums/...nt=Kilrok2.jpg
3. Cataclysm happens, Barrens broken in two
4. Thrall leaves to fix the world, leaving Garrosh in charge
5. Garrosh is in charge; Alliance attacks Thrall at sea

Seems like some hostile actions from Alliance while Thrall was still in charge. I doubt that Garrosh could declare war or something being just a Warsong commander. Smells like Chynn wanted a piece a' Horde; whatever happened in UC, this time is a direct attack on Horde territory, an attack on still Thrall's Horde and then Thrall himself, try to come up with another explanation for that.

[Phenomina]

Still, it was Horde territory. I guess we could have an army ready in case things get too out of hand in IF. You know, to lend a hand.

Demon's controlled it so we took a shot at it. It became Horde terrirtory when they took it from the Humans, so it would have been Demon terrirtory since they took it from the Horde. Either way we didn't have an army waiting it was a spur of the moment decision.

Still human territory...undead humans, but still.

Undead Human bodies perhaps... mentally they are totally different people. They killed a bunch of Lordaeron survivors themselves... friends family etc..

Also, having not read Stormrage, can anyone who has please provide a small quote where it states that the Alliance didn't declare war?

I wonder, I know Blizz has canonized the whole WotA thing, but has there been anything official on this latest work? I further wonder, if the upcoming novel Shattered states something different from Stormrage, since it is newer, is it more canonical?

Speaking of lore from the novel Phen, where do you speculate Rhonin's raptor army will be? Twilight Highlands or at Mt. Hyjal?

Chapter 15, Horde narrator refer's to the Alliance as Allies, this is post Wrathgate. As for the raptor army, they are currently pinning Deathwing in a corner until 25 heroes are able to come defeat him.

That's stupid. Land isn't owned racially. Land is owned by states. The state of Lordaeron collapsed, there was a "civil war" among the members of the former state, one side prevailed and laid claim to the land. Your faction doesn't own anything and everything that is/was associated with its member races.

It was not a civil war... the so called misunderstood Forsaken murdered there human allies after the Scourge was forced from the city.

Using your example then the Undercity belonged to the Demon's and Rogue Forsaken as they prevailed and chased the Horde out.

Lore doesn't say anything about a declaration of war by anyone, so I presume that, as such a superb loremaster, you'll have to accept that nobody started it (except for the Alliance who marched into the Barrens before the Cataclysm hit and the UC long before that.)

Sylvanas never officially abandoned it, as the Horde didn't, so it was Horde territory. And the Alliance lost Lordaeron to the same individuals who inhabited it. Just because the undead don't happen to like the racist Alliance nations who wanted to stomp on them after being their allies for centuries before that just because of pesky undeath, doesn't mean that they lose their right to exist where they had lived previously.

Naughty, naughty, war-mongering Alliance.

Perhaps information was leaked about Garrosh's plans to sack Stormwind or that he wants to force Azeroth under one banner...

Oh I s'pose she didn't say " It's official! " as she abandoned her city and fleed for her life.

As for the bolded part... the humans dislike the Forsaken because they murdered them when they were supposed to be allies... it has nothing to do with racism or pesky undeath.

War mongering Alliance? Pothetic....

I have the utmost respect for you and your determination, my friend. (No sarcasm intended.) But I disagree. Did Varian not notice Vol'jin standing outside? Im sure he saw him at some point, and like a smart man posted a while ago, it was an evacuation, not an abandonment. Im not trying to make anyone mad hear im just stating my opinion.

BallsofThunder: putin' it politly since 87'.

I think Varian was with us at the Sewers and Vol'jin by the entrance, not to sure if they would have seen each other... I may be wrong.

The new Horde doesn't drink demonblood? Garrosh is extremely anti-demon. How have they fallen from redemption. Garrosh is how normal Orcs think... Grom, Doomhammer, and etc all think like Garrosh. Thrall was the abnormal one.

Perhaps now... what if things start to look bad for the Horde, what would he resort to in desperation? He is a Hellscream after all.

Doomhammer is closer to Thrall then Garrosh in terms of mentality, Doomhammer just wanted what he thought best for the Horde, as does Thrall. Garrosh wants to take over Azeroth!

Well, then there's no problem with Forsaken taking Gilneas. It's abandoned, 'cause Gilneans now live in Darnassus, so...

Your terrible at this

Forsaken attacked Gilneas forcing some to relocate, the Alliance did not force the Forsaken out of the Undercity, Demon's did.

Seems like some hostile actions from Alliance while Thrall was still in charge. I doubt that Garrosh could declare war or something being just a Warsong commander. Smells like Chynn wanted a piece a' Horde; whatever happened in UC, this time is a direct attack on Horde territory, an attack on still Thrall's Horde and then Thrall himself, try to come up with another explanation for that.

The Horde is the only one allowed to be hostile while Thrall is in charge? lol the Horde have been Hostile to the Alliance for 10 + years straight. Garrosh has made plans to take over Azeorth and storm the docks of Stormwind, perhaps this is the reason why Alliance are on the move?

Garrosh attacked Varian... The Horde murdered Alliance in cold blood at the Broken front and have been pushing in Ashenvale, and now WPL and Hillsbrad... all the same thing's your accusing the Alliance of... but I'm sure those don't count, because we were at " war " right?

Even thought Lore says nope

[Haven]

Your terrible at this

Forsaken attacked Gilneas forcing some to relocate, the Alliance did not force the Forsaken out of the Undercity, Demon's did.

That doesn't count anyway, abandoned is abandoned, free legitimate pass for Forsaken!

The Horde is the only one allowed to be hostile while Thrall is in charge? lol the Horde have been Hostile to the Alliance for 10 + years straight.

This goes both ways. Stormpike forcing Frostwolves out just because they wanna dig?

Garrosh has made plans to take over Azeorth and storm the docks of Stormwind, perhaps this is the reason why Alliance are on the move?

Ololol, they can read the mind of a commander of one of the orc's armies which gives them a perfect reason to march into the heart of orcish territory lol

Garrosh attacked Varian...

...after Varian attacked Thrall...

The Horde murdered Alliance in cold blood at the Broken front

That was just an emotional moment.

and have been pushing in Ashenvale,

I don't care, it's a BG

and now WPL and Hillsbrad...

Post-Cata, ergo post-Durotar invasion.

all the same thing's your accusing the Alliance of... but I'm sure those don't count, because we were at " war " right?

War, started by the Alliance.

Even thought Lore says nope

Where did you get "The Shattering"?

[Deleted]

Ok.

Cheers, I got owned.

[Sarog]

It was not a civil war... the so called misunderstood Forsaken murdered there human allies after the Scourge was forced from the city.

So what? How does "they are evil! they betrayed us!!!" make it any less of a civil war? The state of Lordaeron collapsed. The remnants of the state of Lordaeron, despite brief periods of cooperation, fought each other for control of the land. One side prevailed and formed a new state in the old capitol.

Land isn't owned racially. Land is owned by states. In this case, the land is owned by a Horde vassal state. The Alliance can't claim to own it because "it is human land!" because that isn't how things work outside of wish-fulfillment fantasy.

I could go into more detail to explain this, but truly I don't really see the point of what you are trying to accomplish with "it is human land!" I don't think you are trying to make a rational argument with that so much as you are just doing some Alliance flag waving.

Using your example then the Undercity belonged to the Demon's and Rogue Forsaken as they prevailed and chased the Horde out.

In a manner of speaking, yes, but not quite. Varimathras's coup began a civil war. The forsaken, with the support of their larger faction, prevailed and restored the status quo. The forsaken state never collapsed, as Lordaeron's did, because it remained intact in (a brief period of) exile.