Hunters - The Reason Blizzard has trouble balancing melee vs caster pvp?

[nemsi]

Chimera Shot is only partially nature damage, and only when used in conjunction with serpent sting.
.

I really thought people believing Chimera Shot is doing physical damage were long gone, but you proved me wrong.
Chimera Shot IS dealing nature damage BOTH parts of it.

[Herecius]

I really thought people believing Chimera Shot is doing physical damage were long gone, but you proved me wrong.
Chimera Shot IS dealing nature damage BOTH parts of it.

If Chimera Shot was 100% nature damage, then Armor Penetration would be nowhere near as useful as it is for MM. Herp!

[Beetlejuice]

This whole thread is kinda pointless. The initial assumptions are already flawed and the argumentation along the way sometimes draws circles. Physical dmg being overpowered against cloth can also be seen as underpowered against plate, it just depends on where you set the baseline. Which of course leads some people to argue that a large portion of hunter dmg is elemental, so now they are suddenly overpowered against plate wearers again.

Doing physical dmg on range is an unique hunter ability you have to consider while balancing classes for pvp (which they obviously did with the unique dead zone mechanic) but it is not in the very least a major hunter class design flaw that makes them impossible to balance. And actually the combination of a melee dead zone with mail armor is a very good approach here, leaving hunters with an exploitable weakness while making sure they are not complete cannon fodder for melee classes now because of that.

Honestly, i don't see the point of the op, unless it is you are a cloth caster and whining about hunters doing to much dmg to you. And in this case, first of all get used to the rock/paper/scissor style of pvp WoW (sadly) is, because plate wearers whine about the dmg you do to them and second of all learn to exploit that dead zone if you really want to take the hunter out. Of course taking out a rock as a scissor isn't the smartest move to begin with.

---------- Post added 2010-09-01 at 04:48 PM ----------

If Chimera Shot was 100% nature damage, then Armor Penetration would be nowhere near as useful as it is for MM.

Arp is nowhere near as useful for MM as most people think it is .

[Garrim]

If Chimera Shot was 100% nature damage, then Armor Penetration would be nowhere near as useful as it is for MM.

Chimera shot is 100% nature damage. ArmPen is great for MM b/c Steady Shot, Auto Shot and Aimed/Multi-Shot are all 100% physical. Read your combat log, it says Chimera Shot hits <target> for x nature damage.

SS/AS-MS/Auto-Shot deal the majority of any MM hunter's damage. Like 60-70%. It's why hunters do not scale as well as warriors, b/c our hardest hitting attack doesn't benefit from ArmPen. ArmPen is a stat that cannot be balanced and is OP at cap. If hunters did 100% physical damage then we would be up with warriors and fire mages on topping meters.

[Herecius]

Chimera shot is 100% nature damage. ArmPen is great for MM b/c Steady Shot, Auto Shot and Aimed/Multi-Shot are all 100% physical. Read your combat log, it says Chimera Shot hits <target> for x nature damage.

Yeah, I'm suddenly not sure why I thought this. Chalk it up to it being 9 a.m. and breakfast still warming up. Disregard my derp! We all have our moments I suppose.

---------- Post added 2010-09-01 at 09:55 AM ----------

Arp is nowhere near as useful for MM as most people think it is .

This one I'll definitely and correctly be arguing otherwise against, however;
Armor pen is a super-powered stat at cap. Per point, it is worth significantly more DPS than agility, which is supposed to be the primary hunter stat.

[Beetlejuice]

Armor pen is a super-powered stat at cap. Per point, it is worth significantly more DPS than agility, which is supposed to be the primary hunter stat.

Yes for the last few points before cap, the several hundred before are not so great. If i have 1400 arp and the last 200 scale good, while the previous 1200 scaled bad that doesn't make arp a good stat. There are points where you gem for it, but it still is one of the most overrated stats for hunters and even for mm hunters.

[Garrim]

You are correct that the more ArmPen youhave the better it gets. You're also right that you shouldn't gem for ArmPen unless you break 800ish with gear alone. However ifyou were to fill all slots with agi gems or go for set bonuses vs an MM hunter that's 1400 capped forgetting all socket bonuses, they will do superior damage. So no it's not overated, it's just that it takes a long time to make it great.

Infact raising my ArmPen from 15% to 25% gave me 50 DPS increase on a spreadsheet, even tho I lost a total of 47 agility. So even at lower lvls it begins to outscale agi quite quickly considering the item budget of ArmPen to agi. It's why they're removing it from Cata. It's too good.

The closer your spec is to doing 100% physical damage the better it becomes by leaps and bounds. 70% physical damage is a lot of damage to boost.

[bigjenk]

They are addressing the armor difference in cata which will help smooth out the curve of hunter damage. right now a hunter does about 2 and a half times more damage to a mage than a holy pallie which is absurd. I would expect to see that drop to more like 50 percent more on a mage or so in cata.

---------- Post added 2010-09-01 at 09:19 PM ----------

Yes for the last few points before cap, the several hundred before are not so great. If i have 1400 arp and the last 200 scale good, while the previous 1200 scaled bad that doesn't make arp a good stat. There are points where you gem for it, but it still is one of the most overrated stats for hunters and even for mm hunters.

With decent other stats it is the best stat for mm at 1k or so, you need like 700 from gear. Before then it is the second best stat. It passes crit as the 2nd best stat at like 150 arp. When you get to 1250 plus range it surpasses even hit up to cap. to check out how stupid it is, it becomes surv second best stat at like 600 even with all the magic damage and the huge modifiers for agi they get.

[Rukah]

This thread has been derailed so many times and is basically turning into a QQ-fest.

There is no balance, there never will be a perfect "balance". L2Play, L2Counter, L2acceptwhenaplyer/classcountersyours etc.

No doubt the previous paragraph with come back to haunt me with some knowitall higherschooler telling me how wrong I am. Bring it.

/rant

[bullseyed]

Yeah, I'm suddenly not sure why I thought this. Chalk it up to it being 9 a.m. and breakfast still warming up. Disregard my derp! We all have our moments I suppose.

[Underskilled]

You contradicted yourself. Your main problem with the hunter class was that we can deal physical damage at range. This only really applies to MM hunters. You pointed out that nerfing physical damage isn't enough since SV deals mostly magical damage. But your problem wasn't ranged magical damage, it was ranged physical damage! How does a SV hunter differ from a mage in that respect? If balancing the game was a problem because of ranged physical, SV hunters shouldn't even be a part of the problem. Neither should BM hunters, since they're 50% melee physical (not a problem), 25% ranged magical (not a problem) and 25% ranged physical.

Considering all this, it seems to me you're QQing over hunters in general. Do not forget we have limitations of our own. A 5yd melee deadzone (which it really is, we can do very little in melee and even this will be gone come cataclysm), no self-healing at all, no useful protective cooldowns. We get a neato focus system for cataclysm, which nerfs our burst and gets us casting a lot more. By being part melee part caster get the worst of both worlds. We get cast times for some of our abilities (like casters), we get to manage a resource bar (like melee), we have cooldowns on our abilities (like casters), we have a zone where we can do nothing (like melee, except reversed). Not to mention the clusterfuck of abilities to manage to play successfully.

I agree, I should not have added that part about Survival, it is contradicting to the point I was trying to get across.

This is not a QQ about hunters though, merely observation/opinion. And you make a point that I agree with, hopefully in cataclysm and the new focus system, things will be a bit better.

Also

This thread has been derailed so many times and is basically turning into a QQ-fest.

Sadly I have to agree with this.

[Blacklisted]

Additionally, a mage only has to get the hunter into melee and find a way to intelligently snare them there to destroy them. Of course, the hunter only has to find a way to intelligently get themselves OUT of melee to do the same. So hey, look at that! It comes down to who has more skill.

This. PVP takes practice, if you are complaining about the mechanics of the game, you need to practice more. There are ways for u to handle every situation for every class. If you go into a bg and suck it up your first 50 games, thats fine, you were probably and still are an awful at pve. The average wow players has subpar skill. Practice in bgs and arenas and hitting the target dummies and reading on constructive posts help make the difference.