Forsaken = Scourge 2.0?

[Irony]

I wouldn't go that far. But even if i did, creationism doesn't always equal good. You can still create monsters.

So what would you define it as? I'd love to hear.

[Alraml]

I'm a little concerned for the Horde in general. In the orcish intro it mentions them almost completely stripping Durotar of it's resources. It doesn't sound too good if they can't work sustainably. We may end up with an azeroth of chopped down trees and quarries

[Korao]

That's sad to see so many trolls destroying topics everywhere... anyway,

First of all, I'll say again what some people said before already. The Forsakens aren't "good people" going to save babies like Thrall and Cairne, they are usually "evil". So even if you argue on the fact they do evil things, like they care...

Secondly, no they are NOT natural and yeah they should NOT exist, but did they ask to be like this? You need to think that they were once humans and elves, but the Scourge slaughtered them and turn them to undeads. Luckily, they freed themselves from the Lich King control and gained liberty, but after their transformation, even their family and friends denied them, hated them, fled them. They lost everything, but they still live in a way... Even if they are not "natural" anymore, they are still people, with a soul, feelings and memories. The Forsakens is their new family, but they can't procreate, so here becomes handy the power of Val'kyrs

Lastly, I think that the Val'kyrs have a certain power to charm, but charming isn't a mind-control as they still have free will and memories of their old life. They aren't "controled dummy" like the Scourge was. Take as example Lord Godfrey (SPOILER ALERT), he got turn as an undead by a Val'kyr and willingly accept to help Sylvanas to revenge himself from Gilneas. But he still had the choice of what he wanted to do, ending with him "killing" Sylvanas.

So the Forsakens are NOT the Scourge because they have FREE WILL and after all, they serve the Horde :P (I had to...)
And yes, the Forsakens are evils, so don't think they will save your babies and like ALL RACES OF AZEROTH, they are ready to do anything to keep themselves "alive".

[Fourty-two]

So what would you define it as? I'd love to hear.

Frankenstein's monster or creationism?

Creationism to me is a higher being creating another being.

Frankenstein's monsters falls inbetween creationism and more like organic machinery to me. It's almost an being in that it can kinda think for itself, but it could never exist without the assistance and repair of another.

That's why it made such a good book in its day. It treads that fine line.

[Mcsnoogan]

like the other 3,007,430 posts on this subject shes done with pussyfooting about shes being her own character. which is good cause i'm sick of seeing all the lore characters being good natured for the sake of people being care bears in a land of rainbows. its pvp in a magic world get use too it

[Fourty-two]

That's sad to see so many trolls destroying topics everywhere... anyway,

First of all, I'll say again what some people said before already. The Forsakens aren't "good people" going to save babies like Thrall and Cairne, they are usually "evil". So even if you argue on the fact they do evil things, like they care...

Secondly, no they are NOT natural and yeah they should NOT exist, but did they ask to be like this? You need to think that they were once humans and elves, but the Scourge slaughtered them and turn them to undeads. Luckily, they freed themselves from the Lich King control and gained liberty, but after their transformation, even their family and friends denied them, hated them, fled them. They lost everything, but they still live in a way... Even if they are not "natural" anymore, they are still people, with a soul and feelings. The Forsakens is their new family, but they can't procreate in anyway, so here becomes handy the power of Val'kyrs

Lastly, I think that the Val'kyrs have a certain power to charm, but charming isn't a mind-control as they still have free will and memories of their old life. They aren't "controled dummy" like the Scourge was. Take as example Lord Godfrey (SPOILER ALERT), he got turn as an undead by a Val'kyr and willingly accept to help Sylvanas to revenge himself from Gilneas. But he still had the choice of what he wanted to do, ending with him "killing" Sylvanas.

So the Forsakens are NOT the Scourge because they have FREE WILL and after all, they serve the Horde :P (I had to...)
And yes, the Forsakens are evils, so don't think they will save your babies and like ALL RACES OF AZEROTH, they are ready to do anything to keep themselves "alive".

Yes most of your points are on fact, and yes the forsaken have a really sad story. The whole point for all the troll threads are that the forsaken are ressing the humans against their will. So, it's hard to pull off the sad story of Arthas ressing them, when they themselves of doing the ressing now.

P.S. The charming of the newly ressed happened after Godrey. That 1-hit KO gunshot to the face changed Sylvanas' mind quick on the whole charming moral question.

[Sweepstakes]

no.
- the answer to ur title

[Korao]

Yes most of your points are on fact, and yes the forsaken have a really sad story. The whole point for all the troll threads are that the forsaken are ressing the humans against their will. So, it's hard to pull off the sad story of Arthas ressing them, when they themselves of doing the ressing now.

P.S. The charming of the newly ressed happened after Godrey. That 1-hit KO gunshot to the face changed Sylvanas' mind quick on the whole charming moral question.

Yeah, but that's like if I give you the choice of;
1) Let the humans die (Let Forsakens die)
2) Kill all panda and the humans will live (Use Val'kyr power)

As a race, you have to do what you can do to let your people live and we all know that in life you face hard choices. Maybe you don't want to do it, but to survive you need to. Like I said, all races of Azeroth are ready to do anything to survive, Forsakens aren't an exception.

[Zaelsino]

They've always been the Scourge-lite, what are you blathering about. Necromancy is not a new phenomenon to them either. Their tactics have always been similar too, it's not unreasonable to think that Val'kyr would flock to Sylvanas. They're not exactly wholly evil creatures anyway, they save the player's life a couple of times and show concern for several allies.

I do like how only now that Sylvanas is kicking the everloving hell out of the Alliance, does this level of whine start up though.

[ShockASU]

With the Addition of the Val'kyr, Revocation of the Will of the Forsaken, Forced Mind-Control of Kolitra, Disobeying Orc Command and widespread use of the plague, and the slaughter of Andorhal and Sylvanas's obvious evil intent.... what seperates the now will-less forsaken from the scourge who they separated from?

Val'kyr - Sylvanas has them raise/charm the dead to bolster the ranks of the Forsaken. How else are they supposed to continue to support and be a functioning member of the horde? Reproduce? Gross.

Kolitra - Forced/Punished...whatever you want to call it. She did it. She has 0...let me spell that out Z-E-R-O..remorse for her actions. Would you? Read her story and tell me if you were in her place you'd be different. Also, Kolitra is serving her in Andorhal and makes a truce with the Alliance...their opponents. Would you like to see in the middle of a battle - or war - the general get all buddy-buddy with someone on the other side? I'd hope not. Sylvanas did it to make sure there is no weakness in her generals and they will not let emotions get in their way. As she has gotten rid of hers after her own death.

Going against Orc rule - This is a stupid argument. Why? First off, as I said, Sylvanas has 0 remorse for her decisions. She has to look out for her people, who in essence, are outcasts to the horde. They're dead. The forsaken aren't the only group going against Orc/Garrosh rule. Have you not seen Vol'Jin talk about getting kicked out of Org and his confrontation with Garrosh over it? Nothing's perfect. The horde is the horde. Each faction of the horde has their own agenda and they are only in a mutual pact because of a common enemy...the alliance. In addition - since UC was overthrown during the Wrathgate event she and the Forsaken have been in the doghouse with the rest of the Horde. If you know her story, you know she's to prideful to be looked down upon and treated poorly..which you could say have led to her going against Garrosh in areas...such as the plague.

The Will of the Forsaken - Going back to the whole charming idea. This is not mind controlling them. This is in a sense..calming forsaken down. You raise X number of undead and they're going ballistic because they realize they're dead...or worse - are mindless. It puts them in a control state as the learn to deal with their surroundings.


So no, Forsaken are not Scourge 2.0 or 2.12323432 or w/e. Yes, Sylvanas does some shady things. Yes, some are questionable I agree. She is stepping out in areas that she has to tread lightly. She is looking out for her people, who she truly believe are alone in the world.

As she says when you talk to her...."What joy is there in this curse?"

[Maximus Testiculos]

Considering the undead are unable to procreate, they need the Val'kyrs to survive. Also how is Sylvanas evil? Because she wants to win a war? War has no rules, she has the plague at her disposal, why would she not use it? Garrosh is an idiot.

Then why was scourge evil?They just wanted to win a war.

[Zaelsino]

Bear in mind that Andorhal takes place after she's betrayed and shot in the face by Godfrey. She's more than likely a little paranoid at this point when one of her free-willed generals goes off having secret meetings with the enemy!

[Fourty-two]

They've always been the Scourge-lite, what are you blathering about. Necromancy is not a new phenomenon to them either. Their tactics have always been similar too, it's not unreasonable to think that Val'kyr would flock to Sylvanas. They're not exactly wholly evil creatures anyway, they save the player's life a couple of times and show concern for several allies.

I do like how only now that Sylvanas is kicking the everloving hell out of the Alliance, does this level of whine start up though.

I wouldn't say that she is kicking the Alliance's ass.

All she basically done is:
1) Defeated a small force of farmers and foot soliders lead by a famous Death Knight.
2)Killed a small village of left over Dalaran mages. (Still allies btw.)
3)Wiped out a small town of humans with biological weapons.
4)Attacked a weakened country after it was weakened by the worgen curse. (And she still got pushed back to Silverpine.)

All from the comfy spot of being on the whole other side of the continent. Way out of reach of the Alliance.

If anything, i would say she is the evil bully in the neighborhood.

[Menegroth]

Forsaken unnatural? Really?

It seems to me that it's rediculous to make the whole unnatural argument in a fantasy world.

Magic fireballs, lightning, transforming into ghostwolves, summoning demons, transforming INTO a demon, magically regrowing things, etc. Really, all of magic is not really natural in the real life sense of it we have.

What is "natural" in real life does not apply to fantasy lifes

[NatePsy]

I wonder what she'd do if Thrall told her not to dispense the plague...

[Fourty-two]

Then why was scourge evil?They just wanted to win a war.

Because they weren't doing it to survive or something, i guess.

Though i'm sure being Scourge couldn't be to bad. Arthas already states he wanted us to be generals in his army, and if the quest chain in zul'drak showed us anything; it was that the scourge is an equal opportunity employer.

---------- Post added 2010-09-02 at 04:25 AM ----------

Forsaken unnatural? Really?

It seems to me that it's rediculous to make the whole unnatural argument in a fantasy world.

Magic fireballs, lightning, transforming into ghostwolves, summoning demons, transforming INTO a demon, magically regrowing things, etc. Really, all of magic is not really natural in the real life sense of it we have.

What is "natural" in real life does not apply to fantasy lifes

Yes, it's even sadder that the Forsaken are even unnatural in fantasy land...

[igtenos]

I wonder what she'd do if Thrall told her not to dispense the plague...

Probably wouldn't have been a difference. Sylvanas is tasting victory and it's going to her head. Unfortunately for her, I suspect things are gonna go south fast. The arathi highlands is going to be the point where her momentum is broken. If there is a god, Trollbane will come home after his vacation in the Outlands. Maybe drag Sylvanas' nephew along with him....

I also hope that Blizzard doesn't forget about the DKs. I rather like both Thassarian and Koltira. If Sylvanus did mind control whatever Koltira.... I don't think the Knights of the Ebon Blade will be very happy. Forsaken vs. Ebon Blade would be fun to watch. Maybe toss in the Argent Crusade for good measure.

[Deleted]

I would not call the Forsaken, Scourge 2.0

But more like Scourge beta phase
There not far to become Scourge 1.0 though.

[SavageJ]

I dont see how killing innocent farmers and raising them against their will as Forsaken is good, so yeah I'd say she's being evil...

[Benitora]

He let a powerful enemy go, you don't do that unpunished.

Let's look at it another way.
He let the guy who saved his life get away. The guy who was dead set on sending help to where others thought he had died.
They are war buddies.
If Sylvanas was faced with the dilemma of either killing her own sister to win the battle, or spare her for truce, would she have thought it to be as weak?

I do agree that Sylvanas is ruthless and will do anything in her power to win a fight, but I think even she wouldn't kill her own sister for victory's sake.


Edit:
Also, for those who say that the raising of the dead is justified by the fact that Forsaken are slowly dying from this world(lol), look into ICC when the Valkyr there raised the champions back from the dead. They agonized. They never wanted this to happen.
So, Forsaken are not a undead race with a free will. They where raised agains't their will, and now Sylvanas is raising dead soldiers who hoped to die for their country. DIE. Not to be raised again to fight agains't their own people.

There is a reason to why Paladins or soldiers of the Alliance very often curse the valkyr for raising them from the dead. They never wished for that to occur.

Edit of the edit:
To rephrase what I meant about dying for their country: They'd rather die honorably in combat than to die and be raised again, regardless of the cause of death. If a soldier of the alliance want's to fight and die for his homeland, why should the forsaken take away his wish?
The forsaken know well enough that being undead is far from being a blessing. It's a curse. It's unnatural, and yet they raise others to share their faith.
Sounds like Borg from Star trek to me. Or the Orai from Stargate.