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  1. #141
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roflpotamus View Post
    So rather, the Forsaken chose not to leave their former homes, but kill the Humans in the army that were after the same goal. Remember, Garithos' army was based off the remnants of Lordaeron, it's citizens.

    Again, I'm pointing out that Sylvanas had a variety of options before her that would not have made her the enemy of the Alliance, but she went for the "easier" (in the short run) option and thus made her the enemy of the Alliance.

    Hell, she could have easily killed Garithos and spared the rest of the army, as Thrall did.
    Humans loathe all undead regardless - see the original racial introduction for Forsaken. If Garithos' boys had no problem with putting BEs to death, I doubt they'd coexist happily with undead ever after. Plus, eliminating them eliminated faction competition. They could restore the conection with the Alliance, a much greater force, which could decide to let things go "natural" and "put to rest" the undead. It isn't entirely impossible, in fact, it's rather likely, looking at the Scarlet Crusade. "If only they listened", as Executor Arren said.
    Isn't there some dispute concerning this now?

    In a thread here, supposedly the Forsaken attack just as the Cataclysm comes about, before Garrosh became the warchief. Then Garrosh sanctions the attack.

    I personally believe that Garrosh ordered them and that Blizz just made a small lorelol (nowhere near BC level).
    Well, the timeline is actually okay - first Gilneas has problems with wild worgen, then Cataclysm happens, Greymane Wall is broken, meanwhile Thrall leaves to fix the world, leaving Garrosh in charge - Garrosh decides that Forsaken should capture some land in his name, they invade Gilneas, Gilneans welcome Night elves and turn the worgen curse into advantage against Forsaken.
    Bah, there's another quest then where the person is silenced. Mayhaps in Stonard or thousand needles.
    We never know what it was about. He might have referred to a leak of Varimathras' machinations.
    I'm really not advocating that they wield it. Rather, I'm pointing out that the morality of the Forsaken took a 180 degree turn, which was a piss-poor job at the story by Blizzard.
    A race of undead known for druidism would be exotic, and I guess making less sense than a race of undead practicing Shadow. Undeath by itself is a thing of Shadow and dark magic.
    Please provide proof that Forsaken cannot wield Nature magic or commune with the Spirits.

    The Twilight Hammer Cult would like to have a word with you.

    (They employ countless Undead that make use of both schools of magic).
    A little tricky one (because I thought it was kinda obvious) http://www.wowwiki.com/Dark_ranger - former rangers lost all connection to the wild and had to fill the void with dark arts.
    A. They are not satisfied with themselves and hold themselves in great contempt.
    B. They suffer for their raison d'etre.
    C. They do not conform to the masses in their similar situation but rather follow their own path (albeit their path is a skewed version of what they formerly believed).

    Not saying that these fellows are beacons of the Uber Mensch, just very much more so than the throng of Forsaken, the masses.
    The funniest part is that these three statements kinda characterize the Forsaken as whole in the first place They went a very different path than any other group that was in the same situation.
    =x

    All of my indignant rage is for naught now!
    What did you expect, I'm a DK tank.
    Ever wonder how the Old Gods came about?

    Yeah, kinda Rhonin like that.
    He was chewing a taco while timetraveling. Old Gods started as breadcrumbs touched by his awesomeness. Then, they evolved.
    None of the new players are rezzed by Val'Kyr.
    Then how do they rise, by themselves?
    Whereas every npc rezzed by a Val'Kyr (short of Godfrey and his incredible hate... atta' boy) shows instant devotion to the Forsaken cause, immediately turning and attacking their allies just minutes ago.
    Look up Dumass. He's kinda... well, disoriented. Darthalia said that the new Forsaken are mostly like that, and it takes time for them to acclimate (it will be supremely lawlable if he shows up somewhere in Twilight Highlands as a tactical genius or such). That's after the initial charm that makes them serve the task at hand.
    And the argument that their allies would kill them in a heartbeat is faulty in how the Alliance employs Death Knights (UNDEAD) in their ranks, most noticeably Thasarrian.
    The whole thing with a death knight of the Scourge just walking into Mord... Stormwind without being killed on spot (and only getting a couple of insults and rotten tomatoes along the way) just to deliver a "forgive-all-sins-for-free" letter from Tirion... seems kinda plot device-ish if you ask me. Now they couldn't hand out the new class to Horde only.
    This does not explain what happened to the Dalaran mages though, nor for the other newly raised Gilneans that fought for Sylvanas. Again, my theory concerning Godfrey is his overwhelming will overpowered said charm, which actually makes sense.
    Mine makes sense, too. Especially considering that no one cast "charm" on Godfrey when he was risen...
    Some indubitably do, just not enough to be represented in game. Mayhaps if they just became practitioners of the Shadow without becoming the polar opposites of their former selves in every other respect, I wouldn't see this as a flip-flop.
    They didn't turn into anarchy (keeping monarchy), they hold respect for Terenas Menethil (as seen on his grave), they didn't disband their families, keeping to them instead, they
    Again, where does it say that Forsaken cannot wield nature magics? (AHEM: Twilight Cultists)
    Summoning and doing stuff with elementals is a thing that a mage is quite capable of. If there are more things (like casting resto or druidic spells)... I need to see it.

    That it did... about as common as an Elune worshipping Orc.

    I exaggerate but you get the point.
    Not entirely, with the first being possible and existing, and the elune orc... not existing at all. They are not forbidden to be "good" by alignment, they just choose not to (which, again, is not surprising, judging by their state).
    Probably because the Forsaken have killed all the Humans in every other region of Lordaeron?

    Also probably because in the first encounter between Humans and Forsaken, Sylvanas had all the Humans killed?
    Then why stop and not kill the rest?
    Yet in Wrathgate, those within the gas are clearly not dying instantly... rather slowly and painfully.

    I'm talking about the Orc whose face was falling off amongst others who suffered.
    And I'm talking of those in the same Wrathgate cutscene that played /death animation the moment the barrels exploded. How long did that orc last? 5 seconds? 10? There were no survivors, no "decaying victims". Also, check the ally quest where they test the stolen sample of the plague on a vrykul. He just turns into slime instantly. As well as when an apothecary threw a bottle of it into her assistant when it failed to work on a captured Scarlet. Assistant turned a green puddle immediately.
    Please, look up Nietzsche's views on the Nazis.
    Look up Nazi's views on Nietzsche, that's what I'm talking about. He disagreed with them on many points, but they as well took many points from his own books. Additional reason for his furious contempt towards them.
    Again, the bit concerning Nietzsche's view on an individual's suffering is in relation to how he sees the Uber Mensch as attainable via self-contempt and thereby a need to constantly improve ones' self.
    Self-perfection is doubtful without learning to adequately respond to aggression, and use aggression where necessary. It's like perfecting just 85% of one's self, leaving the rest ignored.
    Also, the strong support for eliminating threats via the use of force (even though in this specific example, it merely created a larger threat in retaliation).
    Because everyone else and their alt shouts how violence is bad in any possible situation. I had to protect it. This doesn't make me a single-minded brute. I acknowledge the use of all the rest. It's just when everyone is ying and denounce yang, I come in to protect the yang and everyone brands me as an enemy of ying. Which I am not, I'm a man of balance and somewhat holism.
    Nietzsche himself recognized that force (physical violence) is a piss-poor tool in getting what one wants nine times out of ten.
    I know it is rarely the most rational option. But should you be a helpless lamb if this one out of ten actually arises?
    My brother went through a similar transformation, though in a very different way. I also went through said "transformation", but nowhere near as bitterly as you two appear to have, and with far more focus on the fact that Everything is my fault... that nothing is impossible.
    Everything is never your fault. And there are things that fit the definition of impossible. But that's just my opinion. No one can control the entirety of his environment and know the outcome of everything, even his own actions. As dr. House said, "Everyone doesn't get what they deserve. Everyone gets random things". I tend to agree with it. Life may fuck you up despite your best efforts, and may grant you winning a lottery.
    The difference being that said individuals were not a gang and would not come back for vengeance.
    Then I'd just have to show how much of a cornered rabid dog I can be, it's simple. As I said, they'd have to weigh the expense and possible gain from picking on me again. Expense - beaten faces and inability to go somewhere alone without being afraid of being hit on the back of the head. Gain - ???.
    Last edited by Haven; 2010-09-09 at 01:00 AM.
    "A NAME IS A CLOAK OF LETTERS THROWN UPON A MAN. IT MEANS NOTHING." - Transcendent One, Planescape: Torment.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Humans loathe all undead regardless - see the original racial introduction for Forsaken. If Garithos' boys had no problem with putting BEs to death, I doubt they'd coexist happily with undead ever after. Plus, eliminating them eliminated faction competition. They could restore the conection with the Alliance, a much greater force, which could decide to let things go "natural" and "put to rest" the undead. It isn't entirely impossible, in fact, it's rather likely, looking at the Scarlet Crusade. "If only they listened", as Executor Arren said.
    The original racial introduction for Forsaken only occurred after the Forsaken wiped out near all the Humans in Lordaeron. Of course they would be hated by said Humans.

    Garithos' men actually had no love for Garithos and his command, as evidenced by the language the emissary from Garithos to Kael (in mission 2 or 3) and the Dwarf in the final mission for Sylvanas use. Thus, killing Garithos and detaining the army would likely not result in the backlash the Forsaken enjoy today.

    However, since things went the way they went, the Forsaken killed a huge amount of Humans (and a moderate amount of Dwarves and Elves), thus, they are as hated as the Scourge, and treated with just as much vehemence.


    Well, the timeline is actually okay - first Gilneas has problems with wild worgen, then Cataclysm happens, Greymane Wall is broken, meanwhile Thrall leaves to fix the world, leaving Garrosh in charge - Garrosh decides that Forsaken should capture some land in his name, they invade Gilneas, Gilneans welcome Night elves and turn the worgen curse into advantage against Forsaken.
    And then the Gilnean story is continued via the Forsaken players.

    How gay is that?

    Grumble rumble.


    We never know what it was about. He might have referred to a leak of Varimathras' machinations.
    Got the link of the quest? Then we can hunt this down to the facts.


    A race of undead known for druidism would be exotic, and I guess making less sense than a race of undead practicing Shadow. Undeath by itself is a thing of Shadow and dark magic.
    Obviously, yet the Twilight Hammer Cultists employ said Undead, so either Blizz has lorelol'd again or...


    A little tricky one (because I thought it was kinda obvious) http://www.wowwiki.com/Dark_ranger - former rangers lost all connection to the wild and had to fill the void with dark arts.
    Then how do we explain the more recent canon of the Twilight Cultist Frosaken members who wield the arts of Nature and the Elements?


    The funniest part is that these three statements kinda characterize the Forsaken as whole in the first place They went a very different path than any other group that was in the same situation.
    The Forsaken as a whole all went in one path. It's not like they went in a different path from others in their same situation since no others were in their same predicament.

    Those few before mentioned though went contrary to those in their same situation and are striving far more individualistically than the rest of the throng of Forsaken.


    He was chewing a taco while timetraveling. Old Gods started as breadcrumbs touched by his awesomeness. Then, they evolved.
    You forgot about how a raptor from his raptor army took a shit over Azeroth and thus the Earthen were born in their full glory.


    Then how do they rise, by themselves?
    As they originally did, opened coffins of those who died during the Reign of Chaos/Terror.

    Only thing that makes sense seeing how you get a quest to break out fellow noobs from their coffins.


    Look up Dumass. He's kinda... well, disoriented. Darthalia said that the new Forsaken are mostly like that, and it takes time for them to acclimate (it will be supremely lawlable if he shows up somewhere in Twilight Highlands as a tactical genius or such). That's after the initial charm that makes them serve the task at hand.
    This doesn't offer proof that the charm is temporary. Especially considering how he says "I SERVE THE BANSHEE QUEEN! YAY!".

    Lol.


    The whole thing with a death knight of the Scourge just walking into Mord... Stormwind without being killed on spot (and only getting a couple of insults and rotten tomatoes along the way) just to deliver a "forgive-all-sins-for-free" letter from Tirion... seems kinda plot device-ish if you ask me. Now they couldn't hand out the new class to Horde only.
    Likewise, but don't the Horde Deathknights get the same treatment?

    Anyways, the Alliance clearly accepts former members of the Scourge freed from the Lich King's grasp, so the original point stands.

    Whatever it was.


    Mine makes sense, too. Especially considering that no one cast "charm" on Godfrey when he was risen...
    Being raised by the Val'Kyr, wouldn't that be an insta-charming?

    I'm pretty sure that anyone the Val'Kyr rez gets insta charmed to loving the Banshee Queen. Said charm only being broken through extreme willpower.

    Whereas those Forsaken risen through other means (former Scourge) suffer no such charming.


    They didn't turn into anarchy (keeping monarchy), they hold respect for Terenas Menethil (as seen on his grave), they didn't disband their families, keeping to them instead, they
    Which is funny as hell seeing how just under the surface the experiments and torture they commit seem to fly in the face of it all.

    Also, the family dynamic is gone as we know it in the Forsaken culture, most familial references being shown between Forsaken and Humans (around the world).

    Also, they switched from a benevolent ruler who solely amongst the Alliance did not advocate the total eradication of the Orcs, to a brutal ruler who will have incompetent servants "dealt with" (in the Borean Tundra I think the quest was).


    Summoning and doing stuff with elementals is a thing that a mage is quite capable of. If there are more things (like casting resto or druidic spells)... I need to see it.
    1. Look at the Cata footage and you'll see Forsaken wielding the powers of the Elements and Nature (Element of the Wilds much?)
    2. http://www.wowwiki.com/Willow
    3. A mage consorting with an Element is a big lol, a Shaman consorting with Elements fits the lore perfectly. Especially considering how the Elements the mage consort with are based off of Arcane (Frost and Fire apparently).


    Not entirely, with the first being possible and existing, and the elune orc... not existing at all. They are not forbidden to be "good" by alignment, they just choose not to (which, again, is not surprising, judging by their state).
    As I said, an exaggeration. Nevertheless, all sources on the Forsaken indicate that those individuals who are considered "good" or even "neutral" (WoW appears to have an objective sense of morality) are exceedingly rare.


    Then why stop and not kill the rest?
    If you bully one person to make sure that you are not made fun of, why not go ahead and bully the world?


    And I'm talking of those in the same Wrathgate cutscene that played /death animation the moment the barrels exploded. How long did that orc last? 5 seconds? 10? There were no survivors, no "decaying victims". Also, check the ally quest where they test the stolen sample of the plague on a vrykul. He just turns into slime instantly. As well as when an apothecary threw a bottle of it into her assistant when it failed to work on a captured Scarlet. Assistant turned a green puddle immediately.
    Links please.

    Also, watch the Wrathgate again, there were no instant death emotes. They showed that one Orc for several scenes as his face FELL OFF and then they showed several other choking and all-in-all slowly dying.

    Obviously it isn't as slow as cancer, but it it clearly isn't instantaneous death either, rather, for a brief amount of time, those within the plague suffer tremendously then die.


    Look up Nazi's views on Nietzsche, that's what I'm talking about. He disagreed with them on many points, but they as well took many points from his own books. Additional reason for his furious contempt towards them.
    And I already explained how their views concerning his philosophy were faulty .


    Self-perfection is doubtful without learning to adequately respond to aggression, and use aggression where necessary. It's like perfecting just 85% of one's self, leaving the rest ignored.
    No shit, but I wouldn't call it 15%. Hell, I wouldn't even quantify it. This obviously is not to say that aggression is the best reaction for the vast majority of cases however.


    Because everyone else and their alt shouts how violence is bad in any possible situation. I had to protect it. This doesn't make me a single-minded brute. I acknowledge the use of all the rest. It's just when everyone is ying and denounce yang, I come in to protect the yang and everyone brands me as an enemy of ying. Which I am not, I'm a man of balance and somewhat holism.
    And of course when you feel as though the majority in one region support one thing you disagree with, you'll tend towards the other side. I know the sentiment.

    It's an trap that's best avoided.


    I know it is rarely the most rational option. But should you be a helpless lamb if this one out of ten actually arises?
    This is an exaggeration. If one is proficient in all things short of violence (how this is possible I know not), then one wouldn't be a "helpless lamb".


    Everything is never your fault. And there are things that fit the definition of impossible. But that's just my opinion. No one can control the entirety of his environment and know the outcome of everything, even his own actions. As dr. House said, "Everyone doesn't get what they deserve. Everyone gets random things". I tend to agree with it. Life may fuck you up despite your best efforts, and may grant you winning a lottery.
    Inaction is action.

    If you didn't get a job it's your fault.

    If you didn't decide to stop a kid from killing a puppy it's your fault that it died.

    If you didn't decide to improve yourself and command the world according to your will it's your fault.

    Whenever you choose to do one thing instead of others, it's your fault for making the choice. It would be your fault equally for eating vegetarian (and thus slightly supporting that industry) vs. eating mainstream meat (and thus supporting that industry). It would be your fault for/not having become a doctor and saving a boy's life or for/not becoming a train director in India and causing a wreck that results in the loss of hundreds of lives.

    No one can completely control their environment, but they can get closer and closer to doing so and forcing the desired consequences.

    Don't look at this as a weight, but more of a liberation: anything is possible.

    P.S. Even if you don't know of an event's happening right now, it is still your fault, for had you decided to take a different path either yesterday, the day before, the day before that, or so on, you could have altered the outcome. However, you did not (or you did via inaction or hopefully via action).




    Then I'd just have to show how much of a cornered rabid dog I can be, it's simple. As I said, they'd have to weigh the expense and possible gain from picking on me again. Expense - beaten faces and inability to go somewhere alone without being afraid of being hit on the back of the head. Gain - ???.
    You've never dealt with gangs. Serious gang members may not realize this, but constantly put themselves in positions where they have a higher chance of dying so as to avoid losing face.

    If you beat the shit out of one of them picking on you, you'd be killed. No matter how much of a rabid dog you'd show yourself as; and you can be sure that they wouldn't be quick about it (a la' Forsaken ).

    Either A. use a million different non-violent means to diffuse the situation or turn it to your advantage, or B. use overwhelming force and deal with the problem in such a manner that no payback comes to you (killing them all and hiding the evidence of your involvement). Obviously B is ridiculously harder and less practical than A, so go with A.

  3. #143
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roflpotamus View Post
    The original racial introduction for Forsaken only occurred after the Forsaken wiped out near all the Humans in Lordaeron. Of course they would be hated by said Humans.
    Anyway, lore is lore, it says humans loathe all undead, ergo, humans do loathe all undead.
    Garithos' men actually had no love for Garithos and his command, as evidenced by the language the emissary from Garithos to Kael (in mission 2 or 3) and the Dwarf in the final mission for Sylvanas use. Thus, killing Garithos and detaining the army would likely not result in the backlash the Forsaken enjoy today.
    http://www.blizzplanet.com/blog/comm...dark_covenant/
    http://www.blizzplanet.com/blog/comm...eons_of_dalar/
    These two links disprove the statement. Emissary's words could be also interpreted as mocking Kael. And the jailors were clearly less than sympathetic to blood elves.
    However, since things went the way they went, the Forsaken killed a huge amount of Humans (and a moderate amount of Dwarves and Elves), thus, they are as hated as the Scourge, and treated with just as much vehemence.
    Like they care. At all. They have Horde on their side. No matter how many times you might throw the word "mistrust", they will get the military aid lest Garrosh wants to lose Eastern Kingdoms.
    And then the Gilnean story is continued via the Forsaken players.

    How gay is that?

    Grumble rumble.
    Quite gay if you ask me. I hoped worgen would continue in Hillsbrad/Alterac/Arathi etc. But alas.
    Got the link of the quest? Then we can hunt this down to the facts.
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=1391
    He says "I believe the Forsaken are misleading the allies of the Horde.... wait... I feel so... dizzy...". It's a dead end. And it could mean anything. Generic Forsaken shadyness.
    Obviously, yet the Twilight Hammer Cultists employ said Undead, so either Blizz has lorelol'd again or...
    Well... the Twilight's Hammer doesn't solely operate with Nature. They use a lot of Shadow, do they not? Dunno about the beta footage, but in Ahn'kahet, for example, they are quite clearly divided. Orc Apostles who walk with elementals, undead Darkcasters who use warlock abilities. And not otherwise. Quite race-specific.
    Then how do we explain the more recent canon of the Twilight Cultist Frosaken members who wield the arts of Nature and the Elements?
    Evidence please.
    The Forsaken as a whole all went in one path. It's not like they went in a different path from others in their same situation since no others were in their same predicament.
    A race that had suffered subjugation to the forces originating from the Burning Legion, that recently was liberated from their state of a mindless war-machine and is led by a charismatic leader... What about orcs?
    You forgot about how a raptor from his raptor army took a shit over Azeroth and thus the Earthen were born in their full glory.
    I dare not imagine how the stony giants were born. I dare not!
    Likewise, but don't the Horde Deathknights get the same treatment?
    I guess in a little more of a realistic environment only Forsaken might've taken them in as easily... but that's nothing more than my own opinion.


    Being raised by the Val'Kyr, wouldn't that be an insta-charming?

    I'm pretty sure that anyone the Val'Kyr rez gets insta charmed to loving the Banshee Queen. Said charm only being broken through extreme willpower.

    Whereas those Forsaken risen through other means (former Scourge) suffer no such charming.
    Might I remind you that the whole shiz with "charm" started with a scene in Andorhal where a Val'kyr raised a squad of slain militia and then, as a separate action, casts "charm" on them. It's not one action, it's two separate actions. Also, keep it in mind that Lich King needed a shitload of power infusion from Burning Legion, and Helm of Dominance to keep a MC'ed army. And when he was damaged, he permanently lost control over a significant part of his army (enough to become a nation of its own). Now back to Sylvanas - she hasn't a tenth of LK's power, she wasn't remade into undead overmind by Kil'jaeden personally, she didn't pick up the Helm of Dominance. She was even killed for a small period of time. Yet, I don't see any resemblance to LK in the same situation.
    Which is funny as hell seeing how just under the surface the experiments and torture they commit seem to fly in the face of it all.
    How so?
    Also, the family dynamic is gone as we know it in the Forsaken culture, most familial references being shown between Forsaken and Humans (around the world).
    Vorrel and his wife still loved each other (Vorrel is the Forsaken who died on torturer's table in SM). A couple of Deathstalkers in Silverpine are brother and sister, and they seem to care about each other. An ex-chef in Undercity also asks to avenge the death of his wife (although he admitted that the old feelings waned). A lvl1 quest in Deathknell tells the story about how a Forsaken woman loved her husband (who turned into a mindless Scourge) so much that she let him kill her.
    Also, they switched from a benevolent ruler who solely amongst the Alliance did not advocate the total eradication of the Orcs, to a brutal ruler who will have incompetent servants "dealt with" (in the Borean Tundra I think the quest was).
    Orcs switched from Thrall to Garrosh. So what? Who else could they *cough* choose? Who else liberated them from undeath and won them a place in the world?
    1. Look at the Cata footage and you'll see Forsaken wielding the powers of the Elements and Nature (Element of the Wilds much?)
    Haven't seen. Are they using something that is not Fire or Frost?
    She studies the spirits of elements (even a mage can do that). While venerating Old Gods. Which is a rather Shadowpriest thing if you ask me. Mind -whatever-, Shadowfiends - OG favorites.
    3. A mage consorting with an Element is a big lol, a Shaman consorting with Elements fits the lore perfectly. Especially considering how the Elements the mage consort with are based off of Arcane (Frost and Fire apparently).
    Still, Mages do summon water elementals. Without totems. As permanent pets. Lol or not.
    If you bully one person to make sure that you are not made fun of, why not go ahead and bully the world?
    I think you just summarized the paradigm of USA policy. /sarcasm
    Links please.
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=11330
    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=12206
    Also, watch the Wrathgate again, there were no instant death emotes. They showed that one Orc for several scenes as his face FELL OFF and then they showed several other choking and all-in-all slowly dying.
    You accent on 3 seconds of an orc, I ask you to pay attention to humans playing their death animation. Not slowed. Normal speed. Not /choke. /death.
    Obviously it isn't as slow as cancer, but it it clearly isn't instantaneous death either, rather, for a brief amount of time, those within the plague suffer tremendously then die.
    You know, if you're stabbed into your stomach with a sword, you'll also suffer tremendously and then die. Maybe you'll even have the strength to try to tuck your guts back. Also, you know, you could get a mortal wound and lay on the battlefield bleeding for several hours, and even live to see carrion feeders come for you. A clean, desirable death?
    No shit, but I wouldn't call it 15%. Hell, I wouldn't even quantify it. This obviously is not to say that aggression is the best reaction for the vast majority of cases however.
    A number was just abstract. Of course (I think I'm sying it for, like, fourth or fifth time) aggression or violence is not always the best option, but there are situations where they obviously are, that's undeniable.
    And of course when you feel as though the majority in one region support one thing you disagree with, you'll tend towards the other side. I know the sentiment.

    It's an trap that's best avoided.
    No, I just like the Forsaken, that's all. While the majority of sentient beings hate Justin Biber, I'm not into him just for the sake of being "not like the rest". Don't try to simplify me. I don't tend towards the other side. I tend to balance. Except for the case of Justin Bieber ofc, may the slow and painful death befall... it.
    This is an exaggeration. If one is proficient in all things short of violence (how this is possible I know not), then one wouldn't be a "helpless lamb".
    Put him into a dark alley one-on-one with a thug and rethink that statement. Even if it was Ernest Hemingway with Ph.D in astronomy and mastery in surfing and bonsai, he'd still get simply beaten. And that's not a narrow specialization like quantum physics, that's a basic and practical human thing. And I'm not only speaking about physical violence, I'm speaking about the will to inflict harm. Look at the economic world, everyone's in a constant rivalry and wishes to take the resources and niche from their rivals. Without being aggressive, you won't withstand competition. Granted, it's not in everyone's nature, but you can at least learn to use it when necessary.
    Inaction is action.

    If you didn't get a job it's your fault.

    If you didn't decide to stop a kid from killing a puppy it's your fault that it died.

    If you didn't decide to improve yourself and command the world according to your will it's your fault.

    Whenever you choose to do one thing instead of others, it's your fault for making the choice. It would be your fault equally for eating vegetarian (and thus slightly supporting that industry) vs. eating mainstream meat (and thus supporting that industry). It would be your fault for/not having become a doctor and saving a boy's life or for/not becoming a train director in India and causing a wreck that results in the loss of hundreds of lives.

    No one can completely control their environment, but they can get closer and closer to doing so and forcing the desired consequences.

    Don't look at this as a weight, but more of a liberation: anything is possible.

    P.S. Even if you don't know of an event's happening right now, it is still your fault, for had you decided to take a different path either yesterday, the day before, the day before that, or so on, you could have altered the outcome. However, you did not (or you did via inaction or hopefully via action).

    I see. I'm not going to condemn or argue about that, it's just your personal view. I got mine, and it's quite different. I just don't concern myself with possibilities, for they are countless. I could rule the world... but I don't blame myself that I still don't (lazy ass!). I can't foresee everything... so why care? In the end, the only thing that matters is my happiness. I got wishes - from dreams to whims - and their fulfillment brings me closer to being happy. The rest of the world? To the hell with it, it doesn't really care about me, and I don't care about it. It's like with a wild animal - it doesn't care about you, too, you should just remember about caution and respect, and you'll be okay. I just figured that being less shy and concerned about all possible negative consequences and more about following one's wishes, brings an incomparable feeling of freedom and satisfaction, more than any other way of behaving. But it's just my own experience, I'm not saying that's the ultimate truth.
    You've never dealt with gangs. Serious gang members may not realize this, but constantly put themselves in positions where they have a higher chance of dying so as to avoid losing face.

    If you beat the shit out of one of them picking on you, you'd be killed. No matter how much of a rabid dog you'd show yourself as; and you can be sure that they wouldn't be quick about it (a la' Forsaken ).

    Either A. use a million different non-violent means to diffuse the situation or turn it to your advantage, or B. use overwhelming force and deal with the problem in such a manner that no payback comes to you (killing them all and hiding the evidence of your involvement). Obviously B is ridiculously harder and less practical than A, so go with A.
    Jeez, I'm not living in New Jersey or Harlem or something. But if we ascend a little up to a historical degree, you know how the state of China was founded? That's my favorite story. Qin Shi Huang, the first Qin emperor, drowned the seven kingdoms (that now comprise China) in blood after millenia of segregated existence. He conquered - and by that, united - them all. Moreover, he erased their cultural legacy so that there would be no incentive for any group to be "special", other than the rest of the great empire. He then ordered for the Great Wall to be built, and again, it took an unpreceded toll upon the people. But as a result, he left after himself a strong united empire, protected against attacks for hundreds of years to come. It's thanks to him that China exists.
    "A NAME IS A CLOAK OF LETTERS THROWN UPON A MAN. IT MEANS NOTHING." - Transcendent One, Planescape: Torment.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Anyway, lore is lore, it says humans loathe all undead, ergo, humans do loathe all undead.

    http://www.blizzplanet.com/blog/comm...dark_covenant/
    http://www.blizzplanet.com/blog/comm...eons_of_dalar/
    These two links disprove the statement. Emissary's words could be also interpreted as mocking Kael. And the jailors were clearly less than sympathetic to blood elves.
    I bow down to your links. The pause in the emissary's speech I saw as an embarrassed pause, whilst I mixed up the Jailer of the Blood Elves with the demeanor of the Jailer of the Old Gods in the Undead Campaign.


    Like they care. At all. They have Horde on their side. No matter how many times you might throw the word "mistrust", they will get the military aid lest Garrosh wants to lose Eastern Kingdoms.
    Only reason they have the Horde on their side is because of WoW.

    Just the same, the only reason the Alliance have the NE on their side: WoW.

    WoW really did ruin tons of possible awesome lore. =[


    Quite gay if you ask me. I hoped worgen would continue in Hillsbrad/Alterac/Arathi etc. But alas.
    And to add insult to injury, the lack of Stromgarde, or anything for that matter in Arathi. Even though both Horde and Allies are begging for a rebirth of Stromgarde. =[


    http://www.wowhead.com/quest=1391
    He says "I believe the Forsaken are misleading the allies of the Horde.... wait... I feel so... dizzy...". It's a dead end. And it could mean anything. Generic Forsaken shadyness.
    Following the origin of that quest even further back, it becomes apparent that the Forsaken seek to hide what they were doing in Beggar's Haunt, which is staffed by the Royal Apothecary Society (which then gives you a quest to gather the materials for the potion that will kill the spy to your surprise).

    http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/quest.html?wquest=1372

    This heavily suggests that the Forsaken are seeking to hide the development of the plague from the rest of the Horde.


    Well... the Twilight's Hammer doesn't solely operate with Nature. They use a lot of Shadow, do they not? Dunno about the beta footage, but in Ahn'kahet, for example, they are quite clearly divided. Orc Apostles who walk with elementals, undead Darkcasters who use warlock abilities. And not otherwise. Quite race-specific.
    Look through Beta videos of Twilight Highlands. It's a bitch but you occasionally see an Undead in the ranks of the Twilight Hammer, one such occurrence is with a Twilight Windshaper.

    Looking through the mobs already in game though, (Pre Cata), it appears that there is only one concerete occurrence of an Undead wielding geomantic powers (the spirits): http://www.wowwiki.com/Twilight_Geomancer

    There are other possible classes that I would appreciate if someone could check up since WoW and I parted ways (but not Warcraft 3 tee hee!):
    http://www.wowwiki.com/Twilight_Elementalist
    http://www.wowwiki.com/Twilight_Loreseeker
    http://www.wowwiki.com/Twilight_Zealot (not sure if this last one has any Druidic or Shamanistic spells)


    A race that had suffered subjugation to the forces originating from the Burning Legion, that recently was liberated from their state of a mindless war-machine and is led by a charismatic leader... What about orcs?
    And worshiped the Spirits whilst being Green, big, and originating from a foreign land that was ruled by the survival of the physically fittest?

    The comparison between the Forsaken and the Orcs can be made, albeit, it's a stretch.


    I guess in a little more of a realistic environment only Forsaken might've taken them in as easily... but that's nothing more than my own opinion.
    Most likely, but to be honest, the entirety of WoW flies in the face of logic.

    Grumble mumble, ruined teh lorez.


    Might I remind you that the whole shiz with "charm" started with a scene in Andorhal where a Val'kyr raised a squad of slain militia and then, as a separate action, casts "charm" on them. It's not one action, it's two separate actions. Also, keep it in mind that Lich King needed a shitload of power infusion from Burning Legion, and Helm of Dominance to keep a MC'ed army. And when he was damaged, he permanently lost control over a significant part of his army (enough to become a nation of its own). Now back to Sylvanas - she hasn't a tenth of LK's power, she wasn't remade into undead overmind by Kil'jaeden personally, she didn't pick up the Helm of Dominance. She was even killed for a small period of time. Yet, I don't see any resemblance to LK in the same situation.
    The difference being that when the Forsaken were conceived in War 3, there were no Val'Kyr that would summon and charm for him. It was all pretty much himself.


    How so?
    Flies in the face of the respect they showed for their fellow humans.


    Vorrel and his wife still loved each other (Vorrel is the Forsaken who died on torturer's table in SM). A couple of Deathstalkers in Silverpine are brother and sister, and they seem to care about each other. An ex-chef in Undercity also asks to avenge the death of his wife (although he admitted that the old feelings waned). A lvl1 quest in Deathknell tells the story about how a Forsaken woman loved her husband (who turned into a mindless Scourge) so much that she let him kill her.
    Except for two or three instances, all references to the Forsaken "family" are in the past, typically dealing with either vengeance or regret.

    Not, "Go tell my hubby that suppers going to be late, the gnomes are being feisty".


    Orcs switched from Thrall to Garrosh. So what? Who else could they *cough* choose? Who else liberated them from undeath and won them a place in the world?
    Garrosh is far from Sylvanas. One advocates torture, plague, and general baddy-baddy.
    The other advocates strong-headedness, strength of arms prevails all, and honor (in his view of it).


    Haven't seen. Are they using something that is not Fire or Frost?
    There is the Windshaper, but short of that, I can't really find a list of the Cata NPCs yet. Got one we can mull over?


    She studies the spirits of elements (even a mage can do that). While venerating Old Gods. Which is a rather Shadowpriest thing if you ask me. Mind -whatever-, Shadowfiends - OG favorites.
    Willow eschews necromancy for the study of elemental spirits.

    If someone is described as "studying" said arts, it really hints heavily towards that they are a student of such practices.

    There is no hint of any other class for her, and actually heavily hints towards her meddling with the Spirits.


    Still, Mages do summon water elementals. Without totems. As permanent pets. Lol or not.
    Methinks that they aren't Elementals as we consider them, but who knows, not I.

    It'd be interesting to see Blizz explain this.


    You accent on 3 seconds of an orc, I ask you to pay attention to humans playing their death animation. Not slowed. Normal speed. Not /choke. /death.
    I accent on the Orc in how the Orc is smack dab in your face for longer than any NPC in that scene, threatening Bolvar's time in the limelight even!


    You know, if you're stabbed into your stomach with a sword, you'll also suffer tremendously and then die. Maybe you'll even have the strength to try to tuck your guts back. Also, you know, you could get a mortal wound and lay on the battlefield bleeding for several hours, and even live to see carrion feeders come for you. A clean, desirable death?
    When I point out something that is "bad", it isn't to say that I think the "other side" is "good". Stop making those connections, it's base.


    A number was just abstract. Of course (I think I'm sying it for, like, fourth or fifth time) aggression or violence is not always the best option, but there are situations where they obviously are, that's undeniable.
    I'm curious, like when?

    Why should violence be treated as different from any other means to gain control? All measured via how useful they are to one's goal.


    No, I just like the Forsaken, that's all. While the majority of sentient beings hate Justin Biber, I'm not into him just for the sake of being "not like the rest". Don't try to simplify me. I don't tend towards the other side. I tend to balance. Except for the case of Justin Bieber ofc, may the slow and painful death befall... it.
    "I tend towards balance" is rhetoric. Also, you said, "Because everyone else and their alt shouts how violence is bad in any possible situation. I had to protect it. This doesn't make me a single-minded brute. I acknowledge the use of all the rest. It's just when everyone is ying and denounce yang, I come in to protect the yang and everyone brands me as an enemy of ying". You didn't even hint at the Forsaken, but rather at an inclination to be the opposite of what the masses are. This obviously doesn't make you a single-minded brute, but it's an inclination nonetheless.


    Put him into a dark alley one-on-one with a thug and rethink that statement. Even if it was Ernest Hemingway with Ph.D in astronomy and mastery in surfing and bonsai, he'd still get simply beaten. And that's not a narrow specialization like quantum physics, that's a basic and practical human thing. And I'm not only speaking about physical violence, I'm speaking about the will to inflict harm. Look at the economic world, everyone's in a constant rivalry and wishes to take the resources and niche from their rivals. Without being aggressive, you won't withstand competition. Granted, it's not in everyone's nature, but you can at least learn to use it when necessary.
    If said individual were so bloody smart, then he wouldn't be in that situation. He would use his advantages to their fullest and accomplish whatever he desired every time.


    Jeez, I'm not living in New Jersey or Harlem or something. But if we ascend a little up to a historical degree, you know how the state of China was founded? That's my favorite story. Qin Shi Huang, the first Qin emperor, drowned the seven kingdoms (that now comprise China) in blood after millenia of segregated existence. He conquered - and by that, united - them all. Moreover, he erased their cultural legacy so that there would be no incentive for any group to be "special", other than the rest of the great empire. He then ordered for the Great Wall to be built, and again, it took an unpreceded toll upon the people. But as a result, he left after himself a strong united empire, protected against attacks for hundreds of years to come. It's thanks to him that China exists.
    Don't have to live in Jersey or Harlem to meet real gangs, they're prolific in near every major city.

    Just because China exists today doesn't make it "good" that it exists. The ends never justify the means, especially when ulterior ends might have been much preferred with ulterior means.

    A variety of Chinese states would actually be far more interesting and beneficial than one central monopoly. The same applies to every country.
    Last edited by Roflpotamus; 2010-09-10 at 08:13 PM.

  5. #145
    Bloodsail Admiral Aurabolt's Avatar
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    ...Can we get back to the original topic guys? Take that crap to PMs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    World of Warcraft has been played by so many people that it's hard to get a reliable source of new players into the game. Add to that a toxic community that expects perfection out of people who have never played and you have a recipe for decline.
    Quote Originally Posted by Amry View Post
    Only one faction receiving something completely new? Absolutely not going to happen. The QQ is so massive it will break the QQ Pillar in the Elemental Plane of QQ and unleash Kiukiuwing, the Aspect of QQs.

  6. #146
    Scarab Lord Azalu's Avatar
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    I've no idea why she's the heir. The child is incapable of ruling the nation so Muradin should be the rightful heir. And tbh, I think you're abdicating your royal position when you run off and sleep with the enemy

  7. #147
    Mechagnome private420's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackBauerLOL View Post
    I'd imagine this has been discussed before but I went back 3 pages and couldn't find anything.

    Why is it Moira Bronzebeard think she's successor to throne of Ironforge? Muradin is surely next in-line no questions asked?
    she is not really thats why the dark iron invaded and the council of 3 are leading.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Arcangnom View Post
    Magni needs to pop a new one, quickly.
    ^ This

  9. #149
    Haven, Roflpotamus: take it to PMs or make a new thread discussing the inner philosophical workings of the Forsaken. Just stop going off-topic in a thread that clearly has absolutely nothing to do with what you're talking about.

    On the topic itself: because Blizzard said so. Let's face it, we don't know exactly how the Dwarven system of royal succession works. For all we know, it works in ways that do not even exist in real life. This is one of the cases where we'll just have to accept the facts, I think.

  10. #150
    Brewmaster Brittany's Avatar
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    Way it works in England is that Men have priority over women but children of the king/queen have priority over siblings regardless of sex.

    So in this case it would be Moira (offspring) and not Muradin (sibling).

    But if Moira had a brother, older or younger, he would be king.

    As far as Dwarves go it could be completely different though.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Brittany View Post
    Way it works in England is that Men have priority over women but children of the king/queen have priority over siblings regardless of sex.

    So in this case it would be Moira (offspring) and not Muradin (sibling).

    But if Moira had a brother, older or younger, he would be king.

    As far as Dwarves go it could be completely different though.
    but couldn't you say that she gave up her rights when she took sides with a group of people looking to over throw the king and the alliance?

  12. #152
    Looking at the Dwarven archeology description, all three clans originally lived in Ironforge, the dark irons and wildhammers left for w/e reason, and the bronzebeards stayed and claimed the city.

    ---------- Post added 2010-09-10 at 10:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by pickley View Post
    Looking at the Dwarven archeology description, all three clans originally lived in Ironforge, the dark irons and wildhammers left for w/e reason, and the bronzebeards stayed and claimed the city.
    Dunno if this was known or not, not really a big lore junkie.

  13. #153
    khaz modan is ruled by bronzebeards. when moira [thaurissan] defected and joined the dark iron, she has no claims upon the kingdom. same with the wildhammers.

    muradin should be the regent, not a "council"

    but whatever blizz thinks makes the lore more interesting i guess

  14. #154
    Moira is wife of Emperoor of Dark Iron ,enemy of IF. So i think it's right to exclude the her right of succession.

    So Muradin is the Regent of IF (Regent....not king because Magni isn't dead).
    Last edited by Medivh; 2010-09-10 at 10:48 PM.

  15. #155
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    OK guys this how it works..
    Because there isn't really a true heir of age yet his mother steps despite the fact she is not the heir, Muradin says hey thats not fair you screwed us over so your not getting the thrown. while this is going on the wildhammer decide to join in the claim for power (despite the fact that they are not trying to usurp the thrown in any substantial way). Now the alliance and the dwarf's mostly are sensing a repeat of the war of the three hammers. so to avoid a huge and costly war the dwarfs instead decide to create the council of three hammers. this council shares the power equally and will exist until a clear heir is revealed whether it be the estranged dark iron child or Magni is brought out his stone encasement.

    This is how the dwarf politics will function for awhile.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Swixal View Post
    OK guys this how it works..
    Because there isn't really a true heir of age yet his mother steps despite the fact she is not the heir, Muradin says hey thats not fair you screwed us over so your not getting the thrown. while this is going on the wildhammer decide to join in the claim for power (despite the fact that they are not trying to usurp the thrown in any substantial way). Now the alliance and the dwarf's mostly are sensing a repeat of the war of the three hammers. so to avoid a huge and costly war the dwarfs instead decide to create the council of three hammers. this council shares the power equally and will exist until a clear heir is revealed whether it be the estranged dark iron child or Magni is brought out his stone encasement.

    This is how the dwarf politics will function for awhile.
    zzzz we know. we're just arguing WHY it should/n't be this way

  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by swissaccount View Post
    zzzz we know. we're just arguing WHY it should/n't be this way
    Why shouldn't a council rule in the place of a King to avoid a huge and massive war?

  18. #158
    Dreadlord bethofwow's Avatar
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    She isn't. She just took it upon herself to show up and declare she was the new queen, with her father now hard up. What I don't understand is how the two other Dwarf factions just let the Dark Irons share power of IF, after all the shit they have done. Something tells me we might see war of the three hammers part deux down the road.
    Have you hugged a Gnome today?

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by bethofwow View Post
    She isn't. She just took it upon herself to show up and declare she was the new queen, with her father now hard up. What I don't understand is how the two other Dwarf factions just let the Dark Irons share power of IF, after all the shit they have done. Something tells me we might see war of the three hammers part deux down the road.
    The dark iron are "Being tolerated" for now because the dwarf's can't risk another war of the three hammers.
    Last edited by Swixal; 2010-09-10 at 11:02 PM.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Swixal View Post
    Why shouldn't a council rule in the place of a King to avoid a huge and massive war?
    there already had been a civil war among the dwarves and you know who won? yup ironforge clan. they control khaz modan and has influenced it so that there is no way for the wildhammers or dark iron to even contest the kingdom.

    why would the bronzebeards give up their own kingdom to avoid a war they already won?

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