Correct Usage of Holy 2 piece T10

[nikitabanana]

I already made this same point. Really the only good use of the 2p is as an offset when you need to Plea and need to maintain HL spam. Generally speaking though, if you find yourself in this situation, you did something wrong in the first place with your mana management. Let's face it, the only fight you really need to Plea on anymore is HM LK and maybe Princes. All the rest have sufficient lulls or are just too freaking short to matter.

Heroic Halion? It's only been the case that mana regens been solid enough/fights short enough since the 15%ish buff. Things are trivial at the moment. Please teach me how to kill the hard bosses I've already done so many times (LK/Halion). Neither are really even that hard, but they're harder then anything else in game atm.

The net loss of the 4p bonus stems from the fact that the .3 second reduction is applied prior to any other cast reduction modifiers. The math is around if you look for it, but the end result is that the advertised .3 second reduction in actuality is only .14 seconds. The circumstances involved in making this set bonus have a meaningful impact on a raid (saving someone's life) is absolutely absurd. Over months and months of wearing the bonus, you'd be lucky to have it save someone's life once. And in the meantime, you're losing out on a couple hundred Haste because you're wearing two shittily itemized pieces of gear. Hence the net loss in your overall HPS.

You wouldn't actually lose haste unless you're wearing 264 legs (not optimally itemized, but with the diminishing returns on haste, it's not even noticeable cast time wise when you wear dying candles or tier legs). The notable thing you lose out on going to a 4pc bonus is 2x sockets for 20 int - so you lose ~40int. I can't really emphasize how much better at an endgame level dying candles is compared to any 264 haste/crit piece.

Also, the point of the bonus isn't directly to save someones life. Couple hundred is also overkill because even if we go with your 264 leg perspective - you only lose haste on 1 piece assuming you wear chest/helm/shoulders/legs. So you trade 96 haste (negligible at endgame gearing levels) for more overall stats and a boatload of mp5. You then trade 40 int for a bonus that would be useful on a handful of fights. Nothing says you have to always wear it - but it could come in handy during heavy tank fights where you have to move because while you're moving you're lowering the cast of your next holy light.

I'm not sure how that's hard to understand.

want[/i] to wear it. Instead we get 0/5 pieces of properly itemized gear and a 4p that's worse than nothing at all. I mean, how do you explain to a regular player that he's actually better off NOT grabbing the carrot at the end of the stick?

Not every item will be perfectly itemized. Crit/MP5 are still useful stats for holy paladins and are far from wasted. It's not like you're wearing spirit on a piece. Once you break 1K haste, the effective value you get from haste is so low that it doesn't even matter. Even if there were only crit/mp5 pieces in our tier 10, I'd still wear 2 piece because the flexibility it gives is insane.

If mana isn't an issue - then crit/haste is the best itemized piece (and you said, mana isn't an issue unless you play incorrectly, so correct play would support the fact that tier10 has 3x perfectly itemized pieces). I don't necessarily agree with that, I'm just following your flawed logic up.

---------- Post added 2010-09-09 at 03:09 PM ----------

Why would you use HS in any scenario, unless they need a heal NOW?

HL has better burst healing than a HS + FoL instant cast combo.
2 FoLs have better and quicker burst than a HS + FoL instant cast combo.

Even if you do have to move, the small healing from HS won't make much of a difference. HS should only be used when you have to move, and even then it is still the weakest mana-efficient heal.

Simply put, because you're moving. It's not rocket science.

[Firecrest]

Heroic Halion? It's only been the case that mana regens been solid enough/fights short enough since the 15%ish buff. Things are trivial at the moment. Please teach me how to kill the hard bosses I've already done so many times (LK/Halion). Neither are really even that hard, but they're harder then anything else in game atm.

I'm not sure at all what your point here is. The quote you replied to was me saying the same thing you said that I said before (wheeeee). 2p is really only useful if you have to Plea and continue to spam HL but most content doesn't require that. I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say here.

I can't really emphasize how much better at an endgame level dying candles is compared to any 264 haste/crit piece.

I would actually like to see any solid reasoning on how Candles can be "much better" than a Haste alternative at any level. I've seen a couple well progressed Pallies going this route (far fewer than those that stick to Haste though) and have been curious as to their reasoning. I just don't see how the difference can be significantly in favor of Candles. Or in favor of Candles at all for that matter.

For me, it's not about how big my heals are or how long they can go. It's about when they land. When the tank's getting hammered, I want to make sure that my HLs land between spikes. The size of them is more than suffient (Tank deaths are almost always by a lot, not a little) and we've plenty of ways to manage our mana. Hence why Haste is the top priority. I'd gladly trade 1/4 of the size of my HLs to shave 1/4 off their casting time.

Perhaps if you were the only Holy Pally in raid? I can see where the need for larger heals could come in to play there. I run with two (I think this is the norm, right?) so the amount of healing we put on the tank is more than enough. It’s the timing of those heals that’s the most important.

Also, the point of the bonus isn't directly to save someones life.

So what is the point then? If it lowers your HPS but doesn’t save someone’s life, why would you want it? Since you have to give up something to get it, it seems like it would have to be life saving to be worthwhile. We’re healers. Our end goal is to keep people alive. If the bonus makes us worse at doing that, then why get it?

Couple hundred is also overkill because even if we go with your 264 leg perspective - you only lose haste on 1 piece assuming you wear chest/helm/shoulders/legs. So you trade 96 haste (negligible at endgame gearing levels) for more overall stats and a boatload of mp5. You then trade 40 int for a bonus that would be useful on a handful of fights. Nothing says you have to always wear it - but it could come in handy during heavy tank fights where you have to move because while you're moving you're lowering the cast of your next holy light.

I'm not sure how that's hard to understand.

I almost blew the time going to find the EJ post, but I really don’t feel like it right now. I’m going to pull some numbers from memory, so bear in mind I may be off a little bit. I wish the search function on the new boards incorporated the old ones, I did a good synopsis of this like 4 months ago.

The actual cast time reduction of the 4p bonus is much less than the 0.3 advertised. It’s actually like .14 seconds (I’m pretty sure that it was .12 or .13, but we’ll go high). This is due to the fact that it is applied prior to all other Haste modifiers (so, for example, having 3/3 JotP instantly removes 15% of it). On top of that, you’re giving up something like .03 seconds of Haste on all your other HLs because you’re losing (you’re right) 100 Haste on the legs.

This is why it is a net loss over all. It’s pretty straightforward. You can argue that the scenario where you get a swifter HL after a running HS is worth what you give up, but .14 seconds is a very tiny thread to hang on. Especially if it’s not even saving a life.

Not sure how you get that you gain a “boatload” of MP5 though. You lose 61 by dropping Crimson Coins and only gain 53 on the Tier Legs. You actually will have less MP5 if you pick up the 4p, not more.

Not every item will be perfectly itemized. Crit/MP5 are still useful stats for holy paladins and are far from wasted. It's not like you're wearing spirit on a piece. Once you break 1K haste, the effective value you get from haste is so low that it doesn't even matter. Even if there were only crit/mp5 pieces in our tier 10, I'd still wear 2 piece because the flexibility it gives is insane.

I never said that Crit or MP5 were wasted stats. I said that Crit/MP5 is our worst itemization and that Haste/MP5 is our best. I also pointed out how we’ve gotten decreasingly few pieces of perfectly itemized gear on our Tier. If you’d like to argue against those facts, feel free. But please stick to things I’ve actually said.

If you removed the Haste from our two lowest Tier slots (Hands and Shoulders), you’d be trading 172 Haste for the 2p. In BiS ICC gear, this would drop you to 912 Haste. Not worth it IMO.

If mana isn't an issue - then crit/haste is the best itemized piece (and you said, mana isn't an issue unless you play incorrectly, so correct play would support the fact that tier10 has 3x perfectly itemized pieces). I don't necessarily agree with that, I'm just following your flawed logic up.

You’re not “following it up”, you’re taking it to a retarded extreme. “Correct play” includes “correct gearing”.

You know when you make up things to argue against, it just means that you couldn’t do a good enough job sticking to the actual points.

[nikitabanana]

MMO isn't letting me post for some reason because of images or something lame, so I'll break this up and try a bit at a time.
Here's the dying candles argument.

At your current haste minus pants adding the haste on the pants lowers your cast time by .0109s per HL cast. You give up .0109s off your HL for 16int, 57mp5, 16sta, and 10 crit rating. Now, if I weren't at 1k haste without raid buffs, etc - I wouldn't use dying light. The fact is, haste has diminishing returns. After you get past 50% haste, the amount that haste lowers your spells starts to drop dramatically. Do a simple plot in excel or something - it's not linear. Would dying candles be as good at say, 25% haste? No. Not at all.

---------- Post added 2010-09-09 at 06:45 PM ----------

When things were harder and we didn't have the trivializing 30% buff, the size of heals mattered a lot more. Right now, yeah, heals hit hard enough - but if you were working on 25H LK at 5/10/15, size mattered. Not everything is about sustained standing still planted hps, though. The bonus makes you better at saving lives under certain conditions. I wouldn't use it on every fight, obviously.

Also, about the numbers - it's okay, I did the math really quickly.


The actual value at your gearing is 0.1655s off the next holy light. So we're talking about giving up 0.010s for an order of magnitude increase in your HL in the situations where you have to move. Your're correct though that the 0.3s off is based on having absolutely 0 haste, 0 haste raid buffs (moonkin, etc).

You're giving up .010s, as I stated above - unless of course, you aren't fully ICC geared. The amount you give up will depend on your gearing. Don't forget 40int from losing 2 sockets as well. That's the portion that I worry about when I swap gear - not the 0.010s I lose from 100haste since I'm at the heavy diminishing point.

[Dorn]

After you get past 50% haste, the amount that haste lowers your spells starts to drop dramatically.

I'm not going to pretend I understand the math behind haste, how each amount effects your cast time, and where diminishing returns kick in, ect. However, fully raid buffed I have 1100 haste (with food), and I'm only at around 35% haste. So, is the 50% wrong where diminishing returns kick in? Because I find it extremely improbable for anyone to actually reach that percentage in current gear.

[thoukaia]

4pc was never a net HPS loss by itself (if anything, those 0.2 seconds can save a tank), however to get it you'll have to give up some precious haste from either gloves or legs and thats why most people dont go for it.

[Ronark]

Simply put, because you're moving. It's not rocket science.

If you are moving, you are not healing the tanks- Meaning that unless someone else heals them, they will die. A 8k heal won't likely make the difference in a live vs death scenario for a Tank.

[Borigrad]

If you are moving, you are not healing the tanks- Meaning that unless someone else heals them, they will die. A 8k heal won't likely make the difference in a live vs death scenario for a Tank.

it depends on the fight, in blood princes heroic no less if you get knocked back by a shock vortex or have to move cause of an orb, that 8-14k heal can make a huge difference, between life and death for your tanks. same with death whisper or having an ooze on rotface. It is suprisingly effective, especially when used with a quick cast flash of light or instant.

[Ronark]

it depends on the fight, in blood princes heroic no less if you get knocked back by a shock vortex or have to move cause of an orb, that 8-14k heal can make a huge difference, between life and death for your tanks. same with death whisper or having an ooze on rotface. It is suprisingly effective, especially when used with a quick cast flash of light or instant.

Usually thats why you have additional healers- Yes it can make a difference, but it isn't 'practical'.

Of course RNG could be bad and both tank healers get tossed around etc.

[nikitabanana]

If you are moving, you are not healing the tanks- Meaning that unless someone else heals them, they will die. A 8k heal won't likely make the difference in a live vs death scenario for a Tank.

Please tell me you aren't a healer. Other than spouting a bunch of utter crap - I question how you are even a moderator here because you obviously have no idea about anything regarding healing. An 8k heal could most definitely make the difference between a live vs. dead tank scenario. You can tell your tank you're having to move if it's really bad, they can cd, and 8k could definitely keep them up.

I recommend completing both 10 and 25m heroic modes and also healing before writing absolutely baseless crap.

---------- Post added 2010-09-09 at 08:54 PM ----------

Usually thats why you have additional healers- Yes it can make a difference, but it isn't 'practical'.

Of course RNG could be bad and both tank healers get tossed around etc.

Would you please define practical for us oh godlike moderator?

---------- Post added 2010-09-09 at 08:57 PM ----------

I'm not going to pretend I understand the math behind haste, how each amount effects your cast time, and where diminishing returns kick in, ect. However, fully raid buffed I have 1100 haste (with food), and I'm only at around 35% haste. So, is the 50% wrong where diminishing returns kick in? Because I find it extremely improbable for anyone to actually reach that percentage in current gear.

Diminishing returns *always* kick in - however, they become far more extreme the further into haste you go. You do have judgements of the pure and raid buffs, so yeah...I personally find ~1k haste to be more than ample (+haste food).

[Dorn]

Diminishing returns *always* kick in - however, they become far more extreme the further into haste you go. You do have judgements of the pure and raid buffs, so yeah...I personally find ~1k haste to be more than ample (+haste food).

My question wasn't whether or not its ample, I'm well aware that it is. Simply put, you're arguing a ton over a proc that only takes effect when we cast our most inefficient heal, our last resort heal, that we "should" only use while either moving, or in a situation where someone is about to die that second without it. In your argument you've brought up diminishing returns for haste, using the number of 50% as the point in which haste become less than optimal, and where using the 4pcT10 is warranted.

First of all, 50% is impossible to achieve unless I'm missing something- so either that number is wrong (which was my question) or I'm missing out on 15% haste (no its not JoTP.)

Second of all, you're arguing that we should gear towards a proc based off a spell that we only "should" use maybe 20-30 times per fight, and that's on the large end given the scenarios where it should be used, instead of gearing towards the heal we use 90% of the time. In essence, have faster holy lights which is useful for 90% of the fight, or give that up for an almost negligible faster holy light ONLY after casting our worst heal...

I'm missing how the 4pcT10 is worth it.

[ShockASU]

Just picked up holy 2t10, and was wondering how to best use it. Ive been told to macro it into DP, but others tell me to use it when i need extra healing (3rd inhale festergut). Any help clearing up how best to use this ability is much appreciated.

I just have it bound along with a DP macro - if i need to throw out more healing I'll throw D. Illumination up. If I need mana I'll just pop the macro.

[nikitabanana]

My question wasn't whether or not its ample, I'm well aware that it is. Simply put, you're arguing a ton over a proc that only takes effect when we cast our most inefficient heal, our last resort heal, that we "should" only use while either moving, or in a situation where someone is about to die that second without it. In your argument you've brought up diminishing returns for haste, using the number of 50% as the point in which haste become less than optimal, and where using the 4pcT10 is warranted.

50% is just a random number.

First of all, 50% is impossible to achieve unless I'm missing something- so either that number is wrong (which was my question) or I'm missing out on 15% haste (no its not JoTP.)

You're missing something - yes.

15% = JoTP
3% = Swift Retribution
5% = Wrath of Air

What's that equal? (1.15 * 1.03 * 1.05) * 10= 24.37% haste from raid buffs/jotp before your haste is thrown in the mix.

Second of all, you're arguing that we should gear towards a proc based off a spell that we only "should" use maybe 20-30 times per fight, and that's on the large end given the scenarios where it should be used, instead of gearing towards the heal we use 90% of the time. In essence, have faster holy lights which is useful for 90% of the fight, or give that up for an almost negligible faster holy light ONLY after casting our worst heal...

I'm missing how the 4pcT10 is worth it.

0.010s on a HL is worth it? Okay. I said you should gear with the proc for a handful of fights where it would be superior...AFTER casting your ONLY heal that can be CAST while MOVING.

[Ronark]

Please tell me you aren't a healer. Other than spouting a bunch of utter crap - I question how you are even a moderator here because you obviously have no idea about anything regarding healing. An 8k heal could most definitely make the difference between a live vs. dead tank scenario. You can tell your tank you're having to move if it's really bad, they can cd, and 8k could definitely keep them up.

I recommend completing both 10 and 25m heroic modes and also healing before writing absolutely baseless crap.

I heal 10 mans and 25 mans when needed, hence why my OS is Holy.

In a 25 man scenario (lets use Blood Queen) if you are assigned to Tank healing, and get the shadow debuff, you CANNOT under any circumstances keep a tank up- You will have to call out for the healers to heal the tank.

Using a more forgiving example would be something like Festergut and you have to move for a MG, sure tossing a HS won't hurt, but when the tank is being bombarded by 40-50k hits the 8k won't be noticeable.

[Elessa]

You're missing something - yes.

15% = JoTP
3% = Swift Retribution
5% = Wrath of Air

What's that equal? (1.15 * 1.03 * 1.05) * 10= 24.37% haste from raid buffs/jotp before your haste is thrown in the mix.

As far as I know the diminishing returns on haste isn't dramatic as you describe it.

Ok. I decided to try this out. Unforetunately quartz only specifices with 3 decimals.

My haste is 1093, and completely unbuffed without Light's Grace my cast time is 1.875 on Holy Light
With Light's Grace its 1.500
With Light's Grace and Judgements of the Pure it 1.304

If I remove my pants 108 haste my cast time is 1.337 second (awesome, I know). That would mean that 108 haste from 985 > 1093 haste rating is worth 0.033 seconds

If I remove another 106 haste (my helm) my cast time is 1.371. This means that 879 haste > 985 haste is worth 0.034 seconds as well. I guess it's a bit less, but quartz only specifices 3 decimals like I said earlier.

If I remove my shield and my bracers, I lose another 104 haste my cast time is 1.407, which means that with 104 haste from 775 > 879 haste rating is worth 0.036 seconds.

Okay, now lets see if the cast time you gain by haste rating is affected by the 15% buff from talents.

Haste rating -- Cast time without Jotp --cast time with jotp--cast time gained by 15% talent buff

1093------------1.500 seconds------------1.304 seconds--------0.196 seconds

985-------------1.538 seconds------------1.337 seconds--------0.201 seconds

879-------------1.577 seconds------------1.371 seconds--------0.206 seconds

775-------------1.618 seconds------------1.407 seconds--------0.211 seconds

All of the "haste jumps" in this "chart" above are all almost the same (each jump loses 2 haste rating less than the previous), and we can see that the cast time gained by a 15% buff through talents gets lower and lower the more haste you have, although I wouldn't call this a "dramatic" reduction.

Unfortunately I don't have any higher haste rating pieces so I can't see if it gets even less the more haste I add, my guess is that it will keep decreasing with 0.005 seconds per ~106 haste you add though. If you think that this is a dramatic reduction due to diminishing returns, then I guess you were right. I don't think so though.

EDIT: To clarify:
For every 15% haste you add, you will "lose" 0.005 seconds to diminishing returns.

[nikitabanana]

Here's a quick graph that illustrates the dramatic reductions.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/oimg...=adsgbe-5c2xji

If I remove my pants 108 haste my cast time is 1.337 second (awesome, I know). That would mean that 108 haste from 985 > 1093 haste rating is worth 0.033 seconds

Raid buffed, it's even less...you forgot the shaman/ret/moonkin haste buffs you get - so the actual cast value you receive is even less then you've shown.

[underdogba]

If you are moving, you are not healing the tanks- Meaning that unless someone else heals them, they will die. A 8k heal won't likely make the difference in a live vs death scenario for a Tank.

It can in the real world context of HoTs also rolling on the tank at the same time.

[Firecrest]

Here's a quick graph that illustrates the dramatic reductions.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/oimg...=adsgbe-5c2xji

Link isn't working for me.

[nikitabanana]

Link isn't working for me.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/oimg...=qi594w-vv692s

Edit : Sorry about that, I moved it into the main spreadsheet and the old published link failed. This assumes haste % raid buffed from 0% haste (+ raid buffs) -> 100% haste on gear specifically. JoTP is also taken into account.

As you can see, the more haste you get, the less you actually get out of it in reality from a cast speed perspective - hence why I tend to think stopping at ~1k is relatively sane.

Here's with just jotp and lg (aka no raid buffs)
https://spreadsheets.google.com/oimg...x=kftf6-npq0tx
You can see that the curve obviously starts out more linearly, since you're at a lower haste level.