Horde vs. Alliance Cataclysm Breakdown

[Rukari]

If we're counting Saurfang as a Horde Leader (?) shouldn't we count Crowley as well?

[JohnnyTKF]

What about the Rambo questline in Redridge? The Defias chain in Westfall? Both of them are extremely well done and a lot of fun (Im sure there are more but my leveling toon is only level 20 atm )

But you know the actual problem? Alliance just want a good, destroying victory, some quest where the quest giver has a pride for the Alliance, heck, even when Orcs were attacked in Stonard they kept their faction pride, we just say "You did a good job." What kind of pride do they want us to have with that attitude? Without a good victory? Maybe it's because Jesse/TB are Horde testers, but the Stormwind Vashj'ir trip was some marines saying "We are going to lose... And then came the badass speech" while Horde ones were all pumped up, why doesn't Blizzard admit Horde are winning the war?

[Haven]

Wasn't Northern Barrens Horde-favored contested territory?

[Togarox]

Alliance Victories: 5 (the ship Draka's Fury, Camp Taurajo, Honor's Stand, Gilneas the first time around, the gunship Orgrim's Hammer in Deepholm)

You can take the gunship in Deepholm out. 1st of all it isn't Orgrim's Hammer it is another gunship named Storms Fury. 2nd of all the alliance gunship attacked Storms Fury because it had been hijacked by the Twilight Cult. The Storms Fury was carrying a broken piece of the Temple of Earth. The Twilight Cult wanted the broken piece because they don't want the Temple of Earth to be repaired. Most of the true alliance were slaughtered during the hijacking so they kinda lost as well.

[JohnnyTKF]

If we're counting Saurfang as a Horde Leader (?) shouldn't we count Crowley as well?

This too. Also, I think a part of the "bias" is also because we don't have 2 things. A) Friggin important leaders, Varian had a book for him only, yet he never appears outside of SW/Elwynn. Come on, Garrosh just takes a portal and he's there, why can't they do that with Varian? I heard Human mages are better than orc ones -.-
More "Gilneas" kinda quests, where they show the might of the Alliance, come on, the Horde aren't the only strong faction. I just want to be able to kill Horde while I level in the starter zones, I'm not going to Kalimdor to kill Shatterspear, I just want some Horde raid parties to attack... Duskwood, for example, and we kick 'em from there. Is it so hard?

[Cablecow]

Because the Alliance content in Cata is all just an afterthought for Blizz compared to the Horde stuff.

/ Sigh

You do realize you get a John Wayne right ?
and a Mufasa mount ? stop crying ?

[Meltharos]

Unfortunately, I can't give many definite answers, since I'm not part of beta, and I've only been pulling info from posts here and WoW wiki.

How is Astranaar a stalemate? Also, I thought the gunship battle was effectively a loss for both sides(not a win for the Alliance) since the Alliance gunship was taken by twilight's hammer before they used it to destroy the Horde gunship.

I was not aware that's the story behind it, so I guess it wasn't an Alliance victory after all.

What's the stalemate related to the warsong lumber camp? All the pictures Ive seen seem to indicate they have/are accomplishing just what they set out to do.

I read that the Alliance controlled part of the lumber camp, but I wasn't sure about how it ended, so thanks for clearing that up.

You list the number of cities as being even, but in cataclysm all the horde races have their own capital, whereas the worgen are having to fight for theirs.

Gilneas City isn't listed up there. Instead, I listed 2 human ones (Stormwind and Theramore), but that might be stretching things a little.

You're claiming various battles in the southern barrens as being both alliance victories and stalemates, either be more specific or make up your mind.

When I listed Southern Barrens as a stalemate, I was mainly referring to the big battlefield between the Horde and Alliance bases on either side of the zone, so my mistake for not making that clear.

Hopefully that answers your questions.

[orcshaman24]

If we're counting Saurfang as a Horde Leader (?) shouldn't we count Crowley as well?

thats just it. Saurfang hasn't shown up in cataclysm yet, so he can't really be counted as a horde leader, not until he returns from wherever he is.

[JohnnyTKF]

You can take the gunship in Deepholm out. 1st of all it isn't Orgrim's Hammer it is another gunship named Storms Fury. 2nd of all the alliance gunship attacked Storms Fury because it had been hijacked by the Twilight Cult. The Storms Fury was carrying a broken piece of the Temple of Earth. The Twilight Cult wanted the broken piece because they don't want the Temple of Earth to be repaired. Most of the true alliance were slaughtered during the hijacking so they kinda lost as well.

Yea, OP, replace it with Stonard I guess :/ Although it's a weird kind of victory. Oh, and we repel the Forsaken attack in Hinterlands :/ That's it though, why can't they make Arathi a good quest zone? Is it that lame?

[Meiwayero]

I think an Alliance victory would be the high elf camp in Hinterlands, i read somewhere that draenei are supporting them against the Horde attacks.

I dont think that Loch Modan and Wetlands have been completely revamped to have an opinion, yet.

[Tigercat]

Unfortunately, I can't give many definite answers, since I'm not part of beta, and I've only been pulling info from posts here and WoW wiki.


I was not aware that's the story behind it, so I guess it wasn't an Alliance victory after all.


I read that the Alliance controlled part of the lumber camp, but I wasn't sure about how it ended, so thanks for clearing that up.


Gilneas City isn't listed up there. Instead, I listed 2 human ones (Stormwind and Theramore), but that might be stretching things a little.


When I listed Southern Barrens as a stalemate, I was mainly referring to the big battlefield between the Horde and Alliance bases on either side of the zone, so my mistake for not making that clear.

Hopefully that answers your questions.

It does help some. Really the biggest advantage the alliance seems to have is that they're not using freakin plague bombs to win their battles and their leaders aren't treating each other like they expect to get stabbed in the back at any minute.

[Solid Snake]

Basically, the Horde get to fight the war, and the Alliance only get to hear about the war, take part in stalemates or losses, or have no involvement in it whatsoever.

[Faerillis]

Hey as a Hordie, believe me I am not happy about Dragonmaw Port either. I'm gone for 15 minutes, seriously using in game instant transports, pop back into my refreshingly different Horde city... and everything is that black iron. Perhaps if it were one building at a time it would work better.

I would usually vehemently argue this, but I'm in Beta and I have no interest in Alliance content.

[Togarox]

How is Astranaar a stalemate?

What's the stalemate related to the warsong lumber camp? All the pictures Ive seen seem to indicate they have/are accomplishing just what they set out to do.

I haven't been through Ashenvale myself but I believe he is stating that when you leave the zone as alliance/horde, the lumber camp and Astranaar are still under attack.

You list the number of cities as being even, but in cataclysm all the horde races have their own capital, whereas the worgen are having to fight for theirs.

The number of cities is even it just so happens that 2 of the alliance cities are owned by humans. Truth be told we don't really know what happens to Gilneas City. There original plan was to make it a BG but they changed their minds. That means it will most likely just be an empty city.

You're claiming various battles in the southern barrens as being both alliance victories and stalemates, either be more specific or make up your mind.

Just a few things I'm seeing that look a little strange.

A lot of the zones are like this. You have to understand that when you finish a zone in Cataclysm, there isn't a clear cut winner. Both sides have won certain battles but when you leave the zone the war is still continuing.

We all know what happened to Camp T. At Honor Stand the alliance players kill the leader of the horde attacking it. But the zone itself is in a never ending battle for survival.

[Meltharos]

If we're counting Saurfang as a Horde Leader (?) shouldn't we count Crowley as well?

Sorry for the slow response, but I guess the main reason I didn't include Crowley is because after he rejoins Gilneas, he's more of a commander than a leader. Though I suppose by that logic, the same could be said of Saurfang, so I guess I shouldn't have included him there either. Seemed like a good idea at the time hehe.

[Corvus]

The FP in Darkshore isn't actually a horde FP. It, and the troll camp get genocided by the elves.

[Solid Snake]

People who honestly compare the loss of the useless, loreless, pointless gimmick trolls only seen in a flightpath to the losses in Hillsbrad, WPL, etc need to keep quite and let the big boys talk.

[JohnnyTKF]

People who honestly compare the loss of the useless, loreless, pointless gimmick trolls only seen in a flightpath to the losses in Hillsbrad, WPL, etc need to keep quite and let the big boys talk.

This too, although it's better than nothing :P I just wanted to burn Stonard to the ground -.-

[Rukari]

People who honestly compare the loss of the useless, loreless, pointless gimmick trolls only seen in a flightpath to the losses in Hillsbrad, WPL, etc need to keep quite and let the big boys talk.

It's much easier to talk about gains and losses 1:1 than it is to put forward a system of quantifying the value of what has been lost and gained in a way everyone can agree on.

The latter wouldn't further the argument at all, it'd simply shift it from who's winning and losing to how to assign worth.

"Well you never actually had a presence in Andorhal in WoW until Cata. You just lost a battle and the opportunity to acquire territory, you didn't actually lose territory so the loss is worth less."
"But Andorhal is of significant Human lore value pre-WoW so it's value should be higher!"

[Solid Snake]

It's much easier to talk about gains and losses 1:1 than it is to put forward a system of quantifying the value of what has been lost and gained in a way everyone can agree on.

The latter wouldn't further the argument at all, it'd simply shift it from who's winning and losing to assigning worth.

I can easily quantify the loses of these events. While I don't give a shit about faction control, it's easy to see who's getting the most content. Worgen are shuttled off with nothing happening for them beyond there starting zone, their are an abundance of stalemates on one side while the other enjoys a good deal of true success, and one side has the central character of said faction go on a mission to effectively save the world, while the rest of the leaders enjoy a great deal of fleshing out (although done terribly on a written-word level) while the leaders of the other other faction remain stagnant after a very brief spurt of involvement.