Odd holy vs disc tree

[Deleted]

Did anyone notice that the holy tree has a total of 36 talenpoints BUT the disc tree has 43 points total.

As Holy i can pick ALL holy talents (which btw are much better than disc crap) get way more stuff boni and utility and still have 5 points left for disc or shadow talents.

As disc i have shitloads of lousy talents and cant even get them all.

So its 36 great talent points in holy tree and 43 bad to medicore talents in the disc tree.

Pretty stupid imo to make people spend MORE points in disc to get less for it than holy gets with way less points.

I hope they look into this and disc gets a major revamp cause thats beyond obviously gimped and stupid.

[Deleted]

Yeah i noticed this today when i was playing around with talent calculator. I was nit picking may way to grace when i noticed i had spent all my talent points...WTF!

[Marvel]

My only hope is that they just haven't started polishing the tree (or, actually, doing anything with it!)

[Zeuq]

They've been focusing heavily on Holy, and the Holy tree appears to be nearly complete. Discipline still needs some work. First, a few of the talents that exist now need to have their costs dropped, I think Atonement, Divine Aegis, and Rapture are good candidates for that, though not all of them need it, just maybe 1-2 more points.

I think it could use perhaps one more interesting mechanic. Maybe have some way for Discipline to get Evangelism stacks through raid healing, to help boost that aspect, especially since it's raid healing looks pretty lackluster right now. Maybe make Atonement fully accessible without missing too much in Holy (currently, you can't get it, Archangel, and Improved Healing and Inspiration) and perhaps also let Penance casts (both healing and damage) trigger a free raid heal.

Either way, it's pretty clear to me that they still have some work left to do on the tree.

[Neichus]

I've argued this elsewhere but what it comes down to is there are builds that use Smite and there are builds that don't use Smite. Builds that use Smite invest in Twisted Faith, making them sink a minimum of 7 points into Shadow. You will never try to get Archangel/Atonement + Inspiration/Imp Healing because it's simply an impossibility; it's the trade off, as it were, of gaining some of the utility that nuking brings. If you go Smite it's 31/3/7, if you don't go Smite it's 31/10/0 or 31/8/2. I think the perception of ridiculous over-bloat is coming when people are trying to pick up all nuking talents as well as non-nuking talents in the same build.

That said I do agree that a few talents could be trimmed (Rapture and Atonement both come to mind, as well as perhaps Soul Warding), but it's important to see that much of the discrepancy in point count comes from the fact that Discipline shifts 6 points around to Smite while Holy only has 2.

[VermillionMadness]

I've argued this elsewhere but what it comes down to is there are builds that use Smite and there are builds that don't use Smite. Builds that use Smite invest in Twisted Faith, making them sink a minimum of 7 points into Shadow. You will never try to get Archangel/Atonement + Inspiration/Imp Healing because it's simply an impossibility; it's the trade off, as it were, of gaining some of the utility that nuking brings. If you go Smite it's 31/3/7, if you don't go Smite it's 31/10/0 or 31/8/2. I think the perception of ridiculous over-bloat is coming when people are trying to pick up all nuking talents as well as non-nuking talents in the same build.

That said I do agree that a few talents could be trimmed (Rapture and Atonement both come to mind, as well as perhaps Soul Warding), but it's important to see that much of the discrepancy in point count comes from the fact that Discipline shifts 6 points around to Smite while Holy only has 2.

That isn't nearly as much the problem as the symptom. The developers are merely using Disc's first 2 tiers to cater to the other 2 specs. So we end up with a half finished overbloated spec while they try and get the other trees in order. And then come 4.0's first raids they will figure out how badly they left us in the lurch, and at 4.2 we will finally get a redesign.

Take a look at them:
T1
*Imp PWS: Only Disc and the only talent that improves PWS output in the whole tree... cute. disc talent
*Twin Disciplines: Bonus to absorb... not anymore, so if as they said 50% of our output is abs based... where is my other 3%? talent for holy and shadow.
*Mental Agility: 10% cost off of instants. Nice... oh wait. Disc: 5 instants(penance, pws, PS, mend, renew). Holy: 9(coh, mend, gs, renew, 4 holywords, pws). Shadow:6(mf, swp, swd, pws, horror, silence). Oh look another holy talent!
T2
*Evangelism: Shadow talent... don't even bother trying to hide it. As disc there will be no room to use this till like t13. And why does it not include penance?
*Archangel: Also Shadow talent. Or holy maybe a little. 15% heal/damage is ok... only where is the absorb.. oh wait... guess it is 8% for disc.
*Inner Sanctum: good for pvp, ok for pve. Reasonable all around. All specs! Hurray!
*Soul Warding: Disc! Except if you are actually using it, you will go from 100 to 0 in 13-15 seconds! Sooo even for disc more than 1 point(2 sec CD) might be a waste.

Sweeeet huh? Or maybe they need to pull their heads from their posteriors and actually put some dev time into us.

[Bigslick]

if you don't go Smite it's 31/10/0 or 31/8/2. I think the perception of ridiculous over-bloat is coming when people are trying to pick up all nuking talents as well as non-nuking talents in the same build.

My perception of bloat is from the inability to get to our 31 point talent without investing in smite or pvp talents. This build picks up all the normally beneficial PVE disc talents (assuming a non-Archangel build) and is short of picking up PW:B by the need to invest one point into a 'junk' talent.

[Dianthe]

The shadow tree had a similar problem but it has been fixed now, so I wouldn't worry too much about it. You were forced to pick either phantasm or imp psychic scream in order to get lower than the 4th tier in the tree or so before, but now you can take all the pve dps boosting talents while avoiding all the pvp ones without any problem.

I also noticed the resto shaman tree has exactly the same issue - too many talents and the need to spec in some pvp stuff to get to the bottom of their tree, so we're not alone. Disc is still being tweaked a lot in my oppinion. They have changed stuff little by little with the tree though, not all at once like they did with the holy tree, maybe why it feels a bit underwhelming. The way I see it, I think it will play out nicely - I see the disc tree the stronger tank healing spec in the priest trees and I think that is ok - it just needs a little more tweaking and it should be ok.

I am glad they are moving away from bubble - spamming. I play as holy and I reached the point at which I loathe disc priests because I always have weakened soul on a target that could do great with a body and soul...

[Deleted]

that isn't nearly as much the problem as the symptom. the developers are merely using disc's first 2 tiers to cater to the other 2 specs. So we end up with a half finished overbloated spec while they try and get the other trees in order. And then come 4.0's first raids they will figure out how badly they left us in the lurch, and at 4.2 we will finally get a redesign.

Take a look at them:
T1
*imp pws: Only disc and the only talent that improves pws output in the whole tree... Cute. Disc talent
*twin disciplines: Bonus to absorb... Not anymore, so if as they said 50% of our output is abs based... Where is my other 3%? Talent for holy and shadow.
*mental agility: 10% cost off of instants. Nice... Oh wait. Disc: 5 instants(penance, pws, ps, mend, renew). Holy: 9(coh, mend, gs, renew, 4 holywords, pws). Shadow:6(mf, swp, swd, pws, horror, silence). Oh look another holy talent!
T2
*evangelism: Shadow talent... Don't even bother trying to hide it. As disc there will be no room to use this till like t13. And why does it not include penance?
*archangel: Also shadow talent. Or holy maybe a little. 15% heal/damage is ok... Only where is the absorb.. Oh wait... Guess it is 8% for disc.
*inner sanctum: Good for pvp, ok for pve. Reasonable all around. All specs! Hurray!
*soul warding: Disc! Except if you are actually using it, you will go from 100 to 0 in 13-15 seconds! Sooo even for disc more than 1 point(2 sec cd) might be a waste.

Sweeeet huh? Or maybe they need to pull their heads from their posteriors and actually put some dev time into us.

BUMP

Summed up the probs really well..

[Dianthe]

You have to move away from the "disc is a pure absorb spec" mentality... talents that increase your healing are just as good for holy and disc so I really don't see a problem with it... the only issue that I see right now is that disc has a lot of 3 point talents still (8) as opposed to say holy, that has only 3 of them. I am sure this will get fixed though. Other than that the disc tree is shaping up quite nicely imo.

[Tezmata]

I actually think the Holy tree could use a few more talents to choose from, or more ranks to the existing ones. The only real choice for raiding is between Twirling Light and two one-rank talents (Lightwell/Spirit of Redemption/Desperate Prayer). No one will take Blessed Resilience in PvE because of the short duration. You'll end up filling every other point in the tree at up to Tier 5 except for two just to make it to Tier 6.

Even the "choice" to take Twirling Light isn't really there in my opinion (though I'm not in Beta, so maybe I'm missing something major here). You have to cast a damaging spell first and even after you adjust the mana and healing output, Twirling Light is essentially letting you cast an instant Heal when you hit your Flash Heal button.

Heal - Heal your target for 3484.08 to 4049.07.
6% of base mana, 40 yd range, 2.5 sec cast (with Divine Fury)

Flash Heal - Heals a friendly target for 5226.56 to 6074.12.
28% of base mana, 40 yd range, 1.5 sec cast

In a Twirling Light proc, Flash Heal calculates to 3658.59 to 4251.88 healing, 7% of base mana, instant cast. This is 174.51 to 202.81 extra healing with an extra cost of 1% base mana.

We'll go with Holy Fire for the proc, since it has a lower mana cost and cast time than Smite and HW: Chastise is likely transformed by Revelations:

Holy Fire - Consumes the enemy in Holy flames that cause 901.83 to 1145.45 Holy damage and an additional 357.28 Holy damage over 7 sec.
11% of base mana, 30 yd range, 2 sec cast, 10 sec cooldown

11% base mana for Holy Fire + 7% base mana for a "Flash Heal" = 18% base mana total
2 sec cast for Holy Fire + 1.5 sec GCD for "Flash Heal" = 3.5 sec total

So an extra second and extra 12% base mana to do 200 more healing than Heal? That's not calculating in some talents like Improved Healing or Mental Agility, so it may sway a little more, but essentially Twirling Light is a waste of a talent unless you find yourself with tons of downtime and really want to cast some DPS spells. *coughcough*tryshadow*cough*

[Deleted]

You have to move away from the "disc is a pure absorb spec" mentality... talents that increase your healing are just as good for holy and disc so I really don't see a problem with it... the only issue that I see right now is that disc has a lot of 3 point talents still (8) as opposed to say holy, that has only 3 of them. I am sure this will get fixed though. Other than that the disc tree is shaping up quite nicely imo.

Ok then we need a completely NEW mastery.... given that you have 30% crit, the mastery works on every THIRD direct heal and on PW:S (which is worse than a normal heal even with mastery in the current state)

Disc hasd NO mechanic that boost the heal or absorb output or mastery like EVERY other healspecc out there.

Tell me pls, if aborbs are way worse than normal heals (they way it is atm) even with the mastery, and holy heals are WAY better than disc heals, why should people use disc ?

If a holy heal can heal more than a PW:S absorbs with a normal heals AND shield almost as well as a disc , why play disc with way less utility than holy ?

Heals are better than absorbs, holy has better heals and more utility AND almsot as good absorbs as disc.........
I really dont understand why people insist disc is ok when obviously its not worth playing at all over a holy spec.

I played BOTH specs in beta and disc is a joke and needs more than "a little" work, to come even close to other healers performance....

[VermillionMadness]

You have to move away from the "disc is a pure absorb spec" mentality... talents that increase your healing are just as good for holy and disc so I really don't see a problem with it... the only issue that I see right now is that disc has a lot of 3 point talents still (8) as opposed to say holy, that has only 3 of them. I am sure this will get fixed though. Other than that the disc tree is shaping up quite nicely imo.

And you need to move away from the 'Kids are alright' mentality. Things aren't 'alright', the kids are doing blow off a hooker's back. Our mastery has far less scaling and much steeper base requirement for usefulness than ANY other mastery. Our spells have the least scaling. Our +healing falls far short of holy's and that will only become more obvious as time passes. If holy plays its dice right it can also single target better than disc can.

If the holy tree is 90% ready to ship then Disc is less than 60%.

[Dianthe]

But disc shields double scale off mastery AND spellpower? I don't see how that is "worse" than the other masteries... it just makes your trademark spells better? Your mastery increases the absorb ammount - what are you on about?

Also I don't see how disc heals will scale less than holy ones - if you look at the holy tree all the talents that made holy heals better have been removed. Yes, my renew and AoE heals will be slightly more powerful as holy, but your shields will be much more powerful than mine with some mastery , while I only gain a hot of sorts.

Are you people seriously just QQing for the sake of QQ? Are you not looking at the talents in the other trees? Yes, the disc tree has too many 3 pointers which forces you to put too many points into it , but by no means is it the unplayable mess you people make it out to be.

[Surea]

But disc shields double scale off mastery AND spellpower? I don't see how that is "worse" than the other masteries... it just makes your trademark spells better? Your mastery increases the absorb ammount - what are you on about?

It only scales of mastery, not spellpower anymore.

Also I don't see how disc heals will scale less than holy ones - if you look at the holy tree all the talents that made holy heals better have been removed. Yes, my renew and AoE heals will be slightly more powerful as holy, but your shields will be much more powerful than mine with some mastery , while I only gain a hot of sorts.

And we have a bad form of aoe, plus we need to use 'heal' 90% of the time or we get oom.Plus you have chakra, which gives ALL of your healing a tremendous boost.

Are you people seriously just QQing for the sake of QQ? Are you not looking at the talents in the other trees? Yes, the disc tree has too many 3 pointers which forces you to put too many points into it , but by no means is it the unplayable mess you people make it out to be.

Have you actually looked at the disc tree and played it?

[VermillionMadness]

But disc shields double scale off mastery AND spellpower? I don't see how that is "worse" than the other masteries... it just makes your trademark spells better? Your mastery increases the absorb ammount - what are you on about?

Also I don't see how disc heals will scale less than holy ones - if you look at the holy tree all the talents that made holy heals better have been removed. Yes, my renew and AoE heals will be slightly more powerful as holy, but your shields will be much more powerful than mine with some mastery , while I only gain a hot of sorts.

Are you people seriously just QQing for the sake of QQ? Are you not looking at the talents in the other trees? Yes, the disc tree has too many 3 pointers which forces you to put too many points into it , but by no means is it the unplayable mess you people make it out to be.

If you are looking you aren't looking very carefully. Englightenment = 15% more int, Spiritual Healing = 25% more all heals. Meaning that SH feeds into both base values and coefficients without regard to reduction by crit base components or Base values.

Shields do not 'double scale' unless you want to say that 80% of all holy spells 'quadruple scale'.

Disc:
Stats that PW:S/B scales from: Int and Mastery.
Stats that all direct Heals scale: from Int/Crit/Haste and a rng bubble so [(1+Mastery)*.Crit*.3]

Holy:
Stats that all direct heals scale from: Int/crit/haste/mastery
Stats that CoH/Mend scale from: Int/crit/mastery but not haste.

~~~~~~~~~~~ some math incoming
Lets compare the staple spell for both specs. Heal.
161% coefficient, 3 sec cast, base_val_avg = 3766

Disc:
15% more sp from int for enlight, healing: 10% for empheal, 6% for td, 8% grace
-so-
{{[3766+((SP*1.15)*1.61)]*[1+(.10+.08+.06)]}*[1+((crit+.02)*.5)]}*{1+[masteryval*.3]}}=final_val_avg

Holy:
healing: 25% for sh, 10% for empheal, 6% for td
{{[3766+((SP)*1.61)]*[1+(.10+.25+.06)]}*[1+((crit)*.5)]}*{1+[masteryval]}}=final_val_avg

Calcs:
Assume 15% crit, 4000sp(3000 from int, 1k from weapon), and 10Mval or 100% to base mastery bonus.

Disc:
{{[3766+((3000*1.15+1000)*1.61)]*[1+(.10+.08+.06)]}*[1+((.15+.02)*.5)]}*{1+[.4*.3]}}=
10930*1.24*1.085*1.12 = 16469 average over a number of casts

Holy
{{[3766+((SP)*1.61)]*[1+(.10+.25+.06)]}*[1+((crit)*.5)]}*{1+[masteryval]}}=
10206*1.41*1.075*1.2 = 18563 average over a number of casts

Bit on the ouch side.... but it gets worse.
At 5500sp(4000int, 1.5k weapon), 30% crit, 20 mastery bonus
Disc = 23061
Holy = 26604

Then just for fun factor in some extras:
Disc:
Renewed Hope: 10% crit
Holy:
Heal chakra: 10% crit

Holy will be using aspire roughly every other PWS and have a renew running in the background.

So what you are saying is that it is A.OK that holy can tank heal better, and raid heal better and has more mana regen from spirit?
Just wondering.

---------- Post added 2010-09-10 at 04:47 PM ----------

I can create a time and mps bargraph for you too... that demonstrates quite clearly why holy has 15% or better than disc output AND efficiency at tank healing. If you want it.

[iLive]

I actually think the Holy tree could use a few more talents to choose from, or more ranks to the existing ones. The only real choice for raiding is between Twirling Light and two one-rank talents (Lightwell/Spirit of Redemption/Desperate Prayer). No one will take Blessed Resilience in PvE because of the short duration. You'll end up filling every other point in the tree at up to Tier 5 except for two just to make it to Tier 6.

Even the "choice" to take Twirling Light isn't really there in my opinion (though I'm not in Beta, so maybe I'm missing something major here). You have to cast a damaging spell first and even after you adjust the mana and healing output, Twirling Light is essentially letting you cast an instant Heal when you hit your Flash Heal button.

Heal - Heal your target for 3484.08 to 4049.07.
6% of base mana, 40 yd range, 2.5 sec cast (with Divine Fury)

Flash Heal - Heals a friendly target for 5226.56 to 6074.12.
28% of base mana, 40 yd range, 1.5 sec cast

In a Twirling Light proc, Flash Heal calculates to 3658.59 to 4251.88 healing, 7% of base mana, instant cast. This is 174.51 to 202.81 extra healing with an extra cost of 1% base mana.

We'll go with Holy Fire for the proc, since it has a lower mana cost and cast time than Smite and HW: Chastise is likely transformed by Revelations:

Holy Fire - Consumes the enemy in Holy flames that cause 901.83 to 1145.45 Holy damage and an additional 357.28 Holy damage over 7 sec.
11% of base mana, 30 yd range, 2 sec cast, 10 sec cooldown

11% base mana for Holy Fire + 7% base mana for a "Flash Heal" = 18% base mana total
2 sec cast for Holy Fire + 1.5 sec GCD for "Flash Heal" = 3.5 sec total

So an extra second and extra 12% base mana to do 200 more healing than Heal? That's not calculating in some talents like Improved Healing or Mental Agility, so it may sway a little more, but essentially Twirling Light is a waste of a talent unless you find yourself with tons of downtime and really want to cast some DPS spells. *coughcough*tryshadow*cough*

I agree.

[Deleted]

Are you people seriously just QQing for the sake of QQ? Are you not looking at the talents in the other trees? Yes, the disc tree has too many 3 pointers which forces you to put too many points into it , but by no means is it the unplayable mess you people make it out to be.

IF it isnt a mess to be forced to put more points into a tree than other healers and STILL underperform by a great deal than YES its an unplayable mess.
If you want to play disc its for style, but no halfway decent raidleader will invite you for 10 or 25 raids, cause disc simply sucks compared to other healers.

Then of course there are some people who buy a 1000$ 5 year old tv instead of a 500$ brandnew flatscreen ... just for style.....

[Kiora]

That isn't nearly as much the problem as the symptom. The developers are merely using Disc's first 2 tiers to cater to the other 2 specs. So we end up with a half finished overbloated spec while they try and get the other trees in order. And then come 4.0's first raids they will figure out how badly they left us in the lurch, and at 4.2 we will finally get a redesign.

Take a look at them:
T1
*Imp PWS: Only Disc and the only talent that improves PWS output in the whole tree... cute. disc talent
*Twin Disciplines: Bonus to absorb... not anymore, so if as they said 50% of our output is abs based... where is my other 3%? talent for holy and shadow.
*Mental Agility: 10% cost off of instants. Nice... oh wait. Disc: 5 instants(penance, pws, PS, mend, renew). Holy: 9(coh, mend, gs, renew, 4 holywords, pws). Shadow:6(mf, swp, swd, pws, horror, silence). Oh look another holy talent!
T2
*Evangelism: Shadow talent... don't even bother trying to hide it. As disc there will be no room to use this till like t13. And why does it not include penance?
*Archangel: Also Shadow talent. Or holy maybe a little. 15% heal/damage is ok... only where is the absorb.. oh wait... guess it is 8% for disc.
*Inner Sanctum: good for pvp, ok for pve. Reasonable all around. All specs! Hurray!
*Soul Warding: Disc! Except if you are actually using it, you will go from 100 to 0 in 13-15 seconds! Sooo even for disc more than 1 point(2 sec CD) might be a waste.

Sweeeet huh? Or maybe they need to pull their heads from their posteriors and actually put some dev time into us.

While I do agree with what you're saying, using the argument of 4 Holy Word spells is kind of a stretch since you only ever have access to 1 at any given time. And you're forgetting about Power Infusion in Discipline.

[Deleted]

While I do agree with what you're saying, using the argument of 4 Holy Word spells is kind of a stretch since you only ever have access to 1 at any given time. And you're forgetting about Power Infusion in Discipline.

Doesnt matter since he counted penance which isnt an instant , so just swap penance for the 2min cd infusion ^^