Shadowy Apparition

[Vook]

Why? So it can get nerfed a patch later? Rather pointless.

Have you played PTR? It's already nerfed to hell. In full ICC heroic gear, it hits for 800 noncrit, 1600 crit. On Live, it hits for around 2500 noncrit, 4k crit. (Don't know exact numbers, can't remember) And that's NOT in ICC.

[frott]

Lol, so I wasn't intending this in a 'SHADOW PRIESTS ARE OP, NERF NERF NERF' It was a lulz comment about the talent.

Is it just me, or Is this going to get nerfed into the ground?

Erm, ok.

This is just a flavor talent that increases dps. You were doing 10k dps on a bunch of targets. That's not good. You'd have done more by tab dotting all of those targets and trying to keep dots up on all of them. You'd have done even more by standing still casting single targets while hitting those. You'd have done the most by simply mind searing the group.

Shadow priests are not the highest "mobile dps," that would go to all melee who can attack while running.

We're just going to have to be content with tab-dotting and multi-target dps situations where we rule, sometimes even over warlock's seeding.

The numbers haven't been finalized by any means, but how many times have you seen shadow get sizable dps increases? Our dps on test and beta is very low compared to any other class that can do damage.

Hybrid tax hits priests the hardest. I don't see feral druids or ret paladins suffering quite so much.


This will be a pretty fun talent on battlegrounds, tab dotting and running.

---------- Post added 2010-09-17 at 05:08 PM ----------

Have you played PTR? It's already nerfed to hell. In full ICC heroic gear, it hits for 800 noncrit, 1600 crit. On Live, it hits for around 2500 noncrit, 4k crit. (Don't know exact numbers, can't remember)

Slowly the realization is sinking in that abilities, especially AE type abilities including tab-attack/dots, will all be balanced around battlegrounds.

[Vook]

Slowly the realization is sinking in that abilities, especially AE type abilities including tab-attack/dots, will all be balanced around battlegrounds.

But why would AoE be balanced around Battlegrounds? Who the hell AoE's in battlegrounds? (Excluding something like big battles in 40man BG's) Tab-dotting? How would they nerf DoT damage based on how many targets you put it on?

My guess is that Blizzard is nerfing all the spammable AoE abilities (Mind Sear, Blizzard, Earthquake, Hurricane, etc) to nudge players away from just mindlessly AoEing everything (AKA ICC trash)

[Lexxe]

Yea I'll take it, I'm just saying it wasn't our weak spot by far.





No, just no.

First of all when have you ever seen 5 shadow priests in a raid? I have never seen more than three and that it self was rare.

You say how the Apparitions would be annoying if there were alot and clog your screen and fps, then your "fix" is to have one Apparition that "grows" with procs? I fail to see how a enlarged transparent super shadow priest walking to the target will be any better.

From your previous posts on other threads you comment on the "insanely complex" rotation of a shadow priest on beta. The rotation on live is more complex as the DoT times are always shorten by haste and then at certain amounts conflict with GCDs, etc.

So the Priority is always changing, whereas on beta the DoT times are more fixed and produce extra ticks with enough haste. The only thing complex is possible weaving in MS before MB for extra damage (which still need to be tested).

The only reason I even replied about the exaggeration of the rotation is you have an Enhancement shaman "main" linked in your sig which have/had a much more intricate rotation than shadowpriests.

My enhancement sham's old 25 actually had 5 shadow priests at one point. And yes, growing will reduce because you don't have to have it grow huge or anything. Slight increases for normal dps would be more than sufficient.

I've never commented on any sort of rotation complexity in beta on other threads because I don't have a beta invite. The only thing I've done is the PTR, and I've only made this one thread about it.

And enhance shamans rotation isn't complex, its 'hit whats not on cooldown and you get amazing dps'. The priority queue is the only thing to worry about, and its taken care of by setting it up on my 1-9 keys and hitting them in order as they come off cooldown. I don't play shadow on live, I've never had the will to, aside from one stint in Uluduar when I needed to for my old 25.

So, please know who you're talking about when you talk.

[Daggy1111]

We're just going to have to be content with tab-dotting and multi-target dps situations where we rule, sometimes even over warlock's seeding.

I know this is a spreist thread and all, but id like to just say that with the soul burn seed, nothing beats a afflicton lock for aoe damage(not even old unholy) but its beta so...it will change.

As to apperitons, they kinda suck and i wish they had just let us use arch angle(dark angle) to cast mind flay while moving.

[Thrayne]

I know this is a spreist thread and all, but id like to just say that with the soul burn seed, nothing beats a afflicton lock for aoe damage(not even old unholy) but its beta so...it will change.

As to apperitons, they kinda suck and i wish they had just let us use arch angle(dark angle) to cast mind flay while moving.

Are you Trolling?

[Gemazarus]

I agree. I love my new Shadow Apparitions. But was somewhat underwhelmed by them. I'm pretty sure that spamming SW:P and running around to proc them will be a DPS loss compared to other things you can do at that time.

As a class, we really do get shafted when we have to move constantly, as around 50% of our DPS comes from dots, (which obviously keep ticking) and around 40% comes from Mind Flay, moving is very harmful to our output. So, any help I can get while moving, and even a slight buff, a 12% chance to proc one of my Apparitions, I will certainly take.

Doing my standard rotation for 5 mins, on the HC dummy on the PTR, showed me around a 2.5k DPS increase self buffed. I'm awaiting changes and nerfs when 4.01 hits live.

[ayako]

Its not meant to be a dps gain. Its mean to be a PVP talent / making your damage slightly higher on multi-target boss fights where there's movement.

[muto]

They move incredibly slow, and they have a low health pool....

Any class could just run up and hit their AoE and they will all die.

[ayako]

They move incredibly slow, and they have a low health pool....

Any class could just run up and hit their AoE and they will all die.

I wasn't aware they had hp pools/health tags. I thought they were more like the adds on LDW.

I can go in and test later today though

[frott]

But why would AoE be balanced around Battlegrounds? Who the hell AoE's in battlegrounds? (Excluding something like big battles in 40man BG's) Tab-dotting? How would they nerf DoT damage based on how many targets you put it on?

My guess is that Blizzard is nerfing all the spammable AoE abilities (Mind Sear, Blizzard, Earthquake, Hurricane, etc) to nudge players away from just mindlessly AoEing everything (AKA ICC trash)

They set a target "typical cluster" for a battleground and base dps around that. You will still just mindsear packs, you just do less damage. Same exact mechanic.

Now figure if they leave it alone, how amazing AEs would be in a battleground situation against a small cluster of players? AV was nearly 100% ae spam until they turned it into a PVE race bg... the big pushes in WS and Strand are AE spamfests as well. They've given classes AE spam to be competitive in BGs as well.

So that's what they're balanced around. Bottomline is past a certain number of targets, AEing will always be better than not.


Nerfing dot damage based on # of targets its on has been done slowly since launch... VE used to go up on targets so you could potentially double VE. Values/coefficients change based on the general number of opportunities. The power of dots/aes have always been tuned to yield a theoretical max DPS based on number of targets and ease of removing.

My guess is that with the new model they're adding a ton of swarm type encounters and that's a substantial part of the issue.

Nerfing AEs for trash doesn't matter because all trash is is a pure timesink tacked on to a dungeon. They could just add 2x the trash and leave the AEs alone and it would take the same amount of time as 1/2ing AE dps, if that were the case.

---------- Post added 2010-09-18 at 12:07 AM ----------

I know this is a spreist thread and all, but id like to just say that with the soul burn seed, nothing beats a afflicton lock for aoe damage(not even old unholy) but its beta so...it will change.

As to apperitons, they kinda suck and i wish they had just let us use arch angle(dark angle) to cast mind flay while moving.

Hi - thanks for the obvious addon. Soul burn seed has nowhere near the same control or potential that mind sear does, nor unholy. SPriests are also considered hybrid and are taxed with warlocks the pseudo "parent class." So even though warlocks should always win AE, there are special instances where mind sear will outdo them. Which is obviously why I stated SOMETIMES

[ayako]

Hi - thanks for the obvious addon. Soul burn seed has nowhere near the same control or potential that mind sear does, nor unholy. SPriests are also considered hybrid and are taxed with warlocks the pseudo "parent class." So even though warlocks should always win AE, there are special instances where mind sear will outdo them. Which is obviously why I stated SOMETIMES

Actually mind sear is better a majority of the times, specially with the range glyph. (VS Non demo warlocks, lol immolation aura + demo form + soc spam)

[Deleted]

Do you guys think that the apparitions will move faster than currently making this talent good for PvP?

[Rogge]

Do you guys think that the apparitions will move faster than currently making this talent good for PvP?

Even if they move very slow and have 1hp, every time an enemy wastes a gcd to kill something you did not waste a gcd creating, you're a small step closer to victory.

[Thrayne]

Even if they move very slow and have 1hp, every time an enemy wastes a gcd to kill something you did not waste a gcd creating, you're a small step closer to victory.

Whirlwind, Divine Storm, Blood boil etc would one shot them and most would be killed reguardless to if the player was trying to kill them.

In a PvE stand point, they seem like any random AE would one shot them making them useless.

I think giving them a range limit and making them un killable or unlimited range with 10k or so health would be in order.

[Kiora]

Whirlwind, Divine Storm, Blood boil etc would one shot them and most would be killed reguardless to if the player was trying to kill them.

In a PvE stand point, they seem like any random AE would one shot them making them useless.

I think giving them a range limit and making them un killable or unlimited range with 10k or so health would be in order.

If they're that close wouldn't they already be attacking their target?

[Abandon]

I tested this and attempted to kill them with Holy Nova and they ended up damaging me so it doesn't look like you will really be able to hit them with melee range AoEs.

[Reefiis]

Is it just me, or Is this going to get nerfed into the ground?

Depending on my consistency of movement and how many whispers I'm currently getting, I can peak over 8k, 9k, almost hit 10k dps just spamming Shadow Word: Pain on targets while moving back and forth. Image attached to show hilarity in Apparitions.

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/5565/shadowu.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

This is a really cool ability and mechanic, but you do have a good point, it does need its nerfs sadly.

[Abandon]

This is a really cool ability and mechanic, but you do have a good point, it does need its nerfs sadly.

Could you explain why? It already has been established that it would be a big DPS loss over actually just multi-dotting targets, or using Mind Sear, so there doesn't seem to be any real reason to nerf it.

[Rizzoti]

This is a really cool ability and mechanic, but you do have a good point, it does need its nerfs sadly.

Go watch a warlock get 20k dps with soc and come back and say this needs a nerf.