PTR Ret Rotation is uncreative, boring and erratic

[malachi24]

So this is our "rets take skill now lawl" upgraded rotation? Seems to me you just spam CS --> filler until you get 3 HP and then unload TV. Beyond that you watch for procs and spam TV. Judgment, exo, ds, consecration and holy wrath have all pretty much been trivialized into filler garbage?

I know our numbers are off on the PTR...but that's not what concerns me, the rotation itself is pretty lame. It's not hard, it doesn't take skill...and worst of all, it's not very fun. Mashing CS and TV the second either becomes available (and appropriate) is just...lame.

In reading all of the reactions to this new rotation, everyone keeps saying "Blizz tunes for 85, not 80." I can't imagine, if the rotation stays like it is on the PTR, that that's going to change anything. So you have to blow HP every 30s to keep inquisition up. So you get 30% mastery procs. Big deal...that means one thing -- more TV mashing. How is that fun?

I'm not concerned about our numbers...I'm concerned that the class is no longer fun. It does take skill to manage 6 cooldowns on live. That's why there are rets that do 13k dps on saurfang and rets that do 20k dps on saurfang. Moreover, ret is rewarding on live. When things are going well you can tell, when things are clicking you can tell. On the PTR it's all RNG proc based...how is that rewarding or even remotely tied to skill?

There will always be a lot of paladins in wow...OMG people like the lore, who knew? Breaking the class isn't the answer to thinning the herd.

[Rlyskilled]

This isn't really constructive. Was a new thread really needed to voice your opinion when there's one right below you full of people expressing their concerns for the new rotation?

The rotation's gone from a very simple priority system to one that will significantly widen the gap between good ret paladins and not so good ones. Will it take skill? No. But what would? Is it a little more RNG based than a lot of us want? Yes. That isn't to say there's zero RNG on live, my DPS on Marrowgar has varied greatly depending on how lucky I get with DS resets and I'm ready to get used to the same for every boss once 4.0 hits, all I can pray is that our lows are still acceptably high to benefit the raid.

Do you have any actual suggestions?

[Kawakazi]

Are there any PvE rotations in this game that aren't incredibly easy? Don't say Feral either because that too is easy. Rotations in general don't take skill. You eventually wear into all of them, where beyond procs, you can memorize it. If you want to make things difficult for yourself, bind your abilities to retarded keybinds. If you want to play WoW and think on your feet? Do arenas. Become a BG hero, it doesn't matter which.

I know a lot of people like to PvE only but if you don't like a major part of PvE, then are you really enjoying it that much? PvE for me and I am sure others is the satisfaction of killing a hard boss with your friends or your guild, collecting loot, and moving on. It is a bonus if the item won is BiS for arenas for your character.

[Deleted]

Well, at 81 you'll also get inquisition that takes 3 holy power for 30s buff to holy damage so you'll also have to keep that up.

But personally I feel the same. On live, I find playing ret paladin fun and it's not because of the mindless button mashing. It's actually challenging to play ret well, it's just that playing it badly doesn't punish you a lot.

On Beta however, they're changing it into a completely different class again. It might work and they might end up doing competitive DPS but keeping up annoying short duration buffs isnt fun. Thats why I rolled from rogue to ret with Wrath.

[malachi24]

This isn't really constructive. Was a new thread really needed to voice your opinion when there's one right below you full of people expressing their concerns for the new rotation?

The rotation's gone from a very simple priority system to one that will significantly widen the gap between good ret paladins and not so good ones. Will it take skill? No. Is it a little more RNG based than a lot of us want? Yes.

Do you have any suggestions?

The other thread is more off topic...this is specifically about the ret rotation itself. Not pvp or gap closers or damage done. I don't think the rotation, at it's core, is fun at all. As far as the new rotation widening the gap. Doubtful. It's not complicated. It's also a FCFS system...it just involves proc watching. They will have 150 UI mods to track those procs a day after cata is released.

I think blizzard wanted to widen the gap between good and bad rets...but changing us so drastically might result in rets like me...who have been around since vanilla and truly love the class...not wanting to play in cataclysm.

As far as suggestions go, if RNG was what they wanted to add to make the rotation more interesting, they certainly could have tweaked live to accomplish that, not obliterate it into what it is on the PTR.

In response to your edit:

I understand that RNG exists on live, but that RNG doesn't have anything to do with the use of your core abilities. When, what will surely be, our bread and butter attack is completely dependent upon RNG it's different. You might do more DPS on marrowgar when you get a lot of DS resets during close bonespikes, but it's not the same as using TV 10 times in a row based on procs and not using it at all b/c youre HP starved. On marrowgar you're still going to be using DS, you just might do more damage if bonespikes line up...

[Munk]

So this is our "rets take skill now lawl" upgraded rotation? Seems to me you just spam CS --> filler until you get 3 HP and then unload TV. Beyond that you watch for procs and spam TV. Judgment, exo, ds, consecration and holy wrath have all pretty much been trivialized into filler garbage?

I know our numbers are off on the PTR...but that's not what concerns me, the rotation itself is pretty lame. It's not hard, it doesn't take skill...and worst of all, it's not very fun. Mashing CS and TV the second either becomes available (and appropriate) is just...lame.

In reading all of the reactions to this new rotation, everyone keeps saying "Blizz tunes for 85, not 80." I can't imagine, if the rotation stays like it is on the PTR, that that's going to change anything. So you have to blow HP every 30s to keep inquisition up. So you get 30% mastery procs. Big deal...that means one thing -- more TV mashing. How is that fun?

I'm not concerned about our numbers...I'm concerned that the class is no longer fun. It does take skill to manage 6 cooldowns on live. That's why there are rets that do 13k dps on saurfang and rets that do 20k dps on saurfang. Moreover, ret is rewarding on live. When things are going well you can tell, when things are clicking you can tell. On the PTR it's all RNG proc based...how is that rewarding or even remotely tied to skill?

There will always be a lot of paladins in wow...OMG people like the lore, who knew? Breaking the class isn't the answer to thinning the herd.

@ The first bolded section. The rotation is now FAR more difficult to keep at peak damage, not only that but its going to put a HUGE strain on rets watching for procs, managing holy power while watching cd's and inquisition timer while dealing with target changes, raid hazards in combination with a general boss strat.

@ the second bolded section. Managing 6cd's on live is quite easy. CLCret makes a joke of it, I myself use opie to keep all my cd's in front of my face and its basically like playing whack-a-mole.

@ the third bolded section. The reason for the delta in damage between rets is largely due to the difference in gear differential and the average kill time for bosses. What this means since you are clearly not able to tell for yourself is that a guild that clears saurfang HM in 2:15 will for starters have a higher percentage up time on things like bloodlust meaning your average dps will go up. On top of which those same guilds will often contain rets in BiS gear which includes Shadowmourne which is about a 2k dps increase by itself. Even still WMO tracks the top 50 ret parses for saurfang @ 18,381 which is pretty far from your suggested 20k. Additionally anyone who is putting out 20k+ on saurfang is getting fed with TotTs and hysteria's. 20k just isnt possible by your average bis ret without artificial inflation and there is MATH to back that up.

So basically if you take my average dps on H Saurfang in (not bis gear) and no shadowmourne you give me a 2k dps increase from skillmourne and another thousand give or take from finishing my bis set. That will put me within 300 dps of the top 50 parses.

So in closing.

TLDR

Youre trying to act all big and bad saying the new rotation isnt more difficult, you clearly dont pay attention to ACTUAL dps numbers being put out by classes. You dont honestly have ret's best interest at heart in your rant. Thust I assume you are a troll.

[Rlyskilled]

It's challenging to play ret well on live? How do you figure? Once you have the priority system down, everything else is gear, fight time, latency, and how quickly you can catch your one proc you have to watch out for. The most challenging part of ret's current rotation is the ability to button mash for 3 minutes without your fingers getting tired, and hell, there's a program to alleviate that!

Outside of the incredibly simple fcfs live rotation, yes. We have hand spells, raidwide mitigation spells. We can heal ourselves and raid mates and save lives in a pinch on some high raid damage fights. But when we're talking about DPS rotation and that alone, it's incredibly simple and very spammy. When you have a free GCD from your DPS rotation you fill it with another spell. Holy Wrath, Sacred Shield, a FoL. And spammy is why I think people are getting bored on the Beta/PTR. Having free GCDs feels "wrong" to a live pally, hell when I get on my mutilate rogue I'm pretty bored when I DPS because I'm not doing something every GCD.

That being said, I don't think people are looking for something that "takes more skill". What is skill in a rotation? Do you want more DoTs to watch? More buttons to press? What is a skillful rotation to you? And does it matter? A rotation shouldn't be something you have to dedicate all of your brain power to in an encounter because it's so damn difficult. Dedicate an hour or two learning new keybinds on a dummy once 4.0 hits and be good to go by raid time. There are boss mechanics you should be looking out for and raid mates to save with a snap hand spell or interrupt-able spells to Rebuke.

Sure, it's still a "priority system". But doesn't everyone have spells they prioritize over others(Vampiric Touch>Mind Blast), or spells they MUST use before others (Mutilate>Envenom)? What's the difference?

My only qualm with the current system is the complete lack of HP decay. There's no balance around how much HP you start a fight with be it 0, 1, 2 or 3. Used to be a 30 second buff I believe, but it seems to have changed. Mind you, I didn't get a beta key and despite offers from lucky people with beta keys to let me play I have been lazy in doing so so correct me if I'm wrong. Currently we'll have to go out of our way to get 3 HP before a fight begins or we're behind in potential DPS and that just seems wrong to me.

[Nikoll]

I have no problem with the new 'rotation' or iq at 81. I personaly just want the randomness removed. My thought is scale back tv damage, make exo and hw proc a hp every time and no longer let judgment or tv proc one. But make sure judgment damage is sufficient to make that still our top priority.

---------- Post added 2010-09-14 at 04:00 PM ----------

@monk: rng is a mother ------ 2 weeks ago I did 16k on DBS wihout sm. Last week I got shit ds procs and pull 15.5k with sm. While the 20k is wrong his point there still stands

[Araun]

I heard 1button palas are hard to play on live...

this is way better than the live rotation. at least there's a difference between single and aoe rotation.
it could most likely be better, but this is still an improvement from what is on live.

[talitu]

im surprised by this, up to now paladin and mage are the only two classes i haven't levelled due to them being a bit too simple in their "rotations"
but the cata ret system really appeals to me. you've got a couple of dps timers to burn if your mana gets full both on 2 min cd's both have thier own mini rotations.
then you have a standard priority system with holy power with some proc rng goodness to keep you awake with art of war this holy power system also offers diversity into ae healing or single target dps as the situation arises and just to round it off you have mana dumps in consecrate holy wrath and maybe cast exorcism (have to see numbers on that one)

[Rédempteur]

On the PTR it's all RNG proc based...how is that rewarding or even remotely tied to skill?

I'd say it's pretty much like boomkins throughout this expansion.

[Rlyskilled]

I heard 1button palas are hard to play on live...

If you want to be taken seriously don't begin your post with a troll.

[Haobe]

I like the new rotation and holy power system personally way more than what we have on live. Yeah, its a bit more RNG with our mastery, but once we start having mastery on our items, I'm hoping it makes quite a difference, and there is some serious burst potential. I also enjoy the fact that not everything we do is AOE, we have a choice about it now, without killing our rotation completely.

[Munk]

@monk: rng is a mother ------ 2 weeks ago I did 16k on DBS wihout sm. Last week I got shit ds procs and pull 15.5k with sm. While the 20k is wrong his point there still stands

Thanks for further emphasizing my point. If you only were able to get 15.5 w/ smourne and I know you well enough from experience here to know you know your stuff, perhaps your lat was bad or maybe you hurt your finger but still there is a gross inequity in ret dps.

[Araun]

If you want to be taken seriously don't begin your post with a troll.

it's true tho, you can macro your abilities to 1 button and top meters. not even trolling

[Jordaine26]

My porridge is to hot.... my porridge is to cold.... is anyone's porridge just right?

[Munk]

it's true tho, you can macro your abilities to 1 button and top meters. not even trolling

Cast random macro's no longer work, and havnt for a very long time.

Try again.

[malachi25]

monk:

I've done over 19k consistently on live w/o consistent tott or hysteria. I'm not full BIS. Proper raid buffs and RNG go a long way. 20k has been pulled multiple times by the best geared rets.

beyond that, my argument is that the rotation isn't fun. Nothing in this game takes "skill." It's an easy game. I have no doubt that within an hour of hitting 85 I will have the new rotation down. I have no doubt that, similarly geared, I will push the best numbers that rets put up anywhere. What I do doubt is that I will want to. Rets aren't broken on live and this new rotation won't fix them. I appreciate your semi-hostile troll, but please go e-masturbate elsewhere.

[Rlyskilled]

it's true tho, you can macro your abilities to 1 button and top meters. not even trolling

You're incorrect. /castrandom was removed from the game a while ago, and a multiple /cast macro will simply not work in this way.

There is of course AutoHotKey but using it to automate gameplay in this way is against the ToS.

[malachi25]

The only problem with rets on live is that there isnt enough of a penalty for being a mediocre or bad ret. Where the disparity between a bad rogue and a good rogue might be 5k dps, its probably closer to 3k dps for a ret.

A lot of the best rets like playing rets because they like the play style...changing the play style to penalize the mediocre or bad rets is also going to turn off a lot of the good rets that like the cooldown management dps playstyle. Again, it is a simple play style, but it's not very much easier than almost anything else in WOW. That's a ridiculous elitist argument that idiots who think they're uber like to make. I could be just as good as you on your rogue/mage/feral/etc...I just don't want to be.