How to run a (hardcore) 10 man raiding guild in cataclysm?

[KLAVIER]

I have some questions about 10 man guilds:

1) Should I use DKP? I've never seen any 10 man raids using dkp.

2) There will be no class leaders and huge roster, how to choose better players?

3) How large should the roster be? Exactly 10? Do we need an alt raid?

[Jahoota]

Hardcore = recruit 15 more. :P

---------- Post added 2010-09-15 at 02:10 PM ----------

1) There really isn't a way to answer this without knowing your individual raid. The 10-man I was with knew how to pass out loot so we didn't need DKP but if you can't be 100% impartial/fair or have people who will b!tch, go with DKP. No matter what you decide make sure your loot system is clear to all. Have main/alt rules. Have main spec/alt spec rules. Have rules about gearing tanks first (or not). Have rules about what to do if you end up getting a pugger. Just make sure you have all your bases covered because loot drama isn't fun.

2) As the RL/GL know how people are suppose to spec (or have someone with this knowledge). People don't have to be cookie cutter but they need to work. Pay attention to the damage output for your DPS and healing output, spell usage, mana management of your healers. People who die to stupid stuff (fire, void zones, goo, ect.) or soak up too much of your healers mana have poor situational awareness...which is bad.

Note players who know about mechanics before a fight. Good players will go watch a video before a raid so they know what to expect from the raid. These people are ready to roll and wont need 3 or 4 tries to get on the same page as everyone.

Also note players who have potions, flasks and food. Lastly, look out for people who use their class to the fullest. This may be really, really hard to notice because you have to have a fairly deep understanding of other classes and you have to watch players performing all while doing your own job. Examples: keep track of dispels (offensive and defensive), decurses, curing poisons, interrupts, debuff uptime, pet management and countless other utilities.

3) See the first part of #1.

[Laughriot]

It really depends on how you go about doing it. My 10man group is a guild of friends who would rather play with each other and have fun than play with other people and not, and we don't give a shit about loot. Because of that, we've always used free roll and discussion to determine who gets something. Generally someone will say "nah, you take it" if the other person needs it more.

How to choose better players seems pretty straight-forward, imo. Especially if you're NOT a guild of friends. You start rotating people in and out based on who tops meters while avoiding environmental hazards. If you bring a person along who is #1 on DPS by a huge margin because he blows all his cooldowns at the start of the fight and pulls aggro while standing in fire, he's terrible and you should replace him. If you bring someone along who avoids environmental hazards but doesn't do comparable damage to the rest of the people who are also doing that, he's awful and you need to get a different person in there. There really is no formula to answer this question, outside of trial and error. You bring the people that perform the best, and you make sure everyone knows their raid spot is on the line if they are terrible.

Roster should be 13-15 unless you're planning on running multiple 10-man progression runs per week. People always have stuff come up. Make sure that your raiders know that people will be setting out every week. If you have multiple viable raid comps, tell your core raiders that volunteering to set out one raid night gets them invite priority the next raid night, as a reward for being selfless. You'd be surprised how easily this can fall into place, with good people.

I wish you the best of luck. I'm currently in the process of trying to put together multiple 10man raids for my own guild, so I know it can be a headache to keep everyone happy.

p.s. to the guy who posted above me... do you think people who insist 25-man is the way to be hardcore will actually be able to physically drown me in their tears the first time they see me wearing the same gear as them in my 10-man guild? Hehe =) My favorite thing in WoW recently has been looking at those nice trinkets that you get for face-rolling 25-man Halion and thinking to myself "That's the last time that will ever happen. The clock is ticking on bads getting carried through 25-mans for exclusive gear that is impossible to earn in 10-mans."

[Deleted]

imo, loot council is the better option over dkp.

[Emaluri]

imo, loot council is the better option over dkp.

Too prone to corruption, favoritism, or the perceived existence thereof. Loot council only works in a perfect world or with a tight-knit group of friends. DKP is a system that is relatively unbiased, except when introducing new players.

My favorite method is /roll for loot in several rounds. "Main / Main Spec" rolls, then "Main / Off Spec" then "Alt / Main Spec" and "Alt / Off Spec" then "Shits 'n Giggles" then guild DE. You can't get more fair than random luck, but it really sucks when you have people that really want something, and a new person comes in and gets lucky.

All loot systems have good and bad in them. How you decide which to use is dependent on your individual needs as a raid group, and the measure in which you can trust your raiders. From there, determine which system has the most benefits and the least downsides, and use that one.

[Bairyhalls]

DKP is imo for 25 mans. Im not sure about cata loot, but in wotlk you have 2, max 3 people who can use the same item from a specific boss. If one doesnt get an item first time it drops, theres a high chance hell get it second time, due to the short roster.

[talrob]

Speaking as a 10 man strict raider (aka not 10 people from a 25 man guild like the above), you don't need any loot system. At best you will have competition with 1 other person or you have a really weird raid. Just /roll and have a 'gentleman's agreement' that if you win one item, the other person gets the next.

Our guild has (well technically had, we are all playing starcraft 2 or going outside atm) 12-14 serious raiders at any one time, everyone who can, has an offspec and knows how to use it as good or almost as good as their main spec. Therefore at anyone time we technically have around 4 tanks, 4 healers and 10 dps in one raid. If that doesn't work 8 of us have nearly equally geared alts we can use instead. This is the key to 10 mans, you have to be very flexible. Any more than 14-15 and people will whine at getting sat out so you have to have people who can swap to keep a raid going even if 3-4 people are busy. Exactly 10 will not work unless you like pugs.

As for leaders we have 1 'guild master' who basically does everything. In a 10 man guild there is very little to do. This person though has to be a god (shoutout to xty), at the same time they have to know all the tactics, know everyone in their raid, keep egos in check and keep everything running smoothly in raids. The have to be well respected and have a 'godfather don' style type of personally where when he or she speaks everyone else shuts up and listens. I am one of the two other officers, I basically just lead raids when the gm is busy and the other officer keeps the bank stocked. We all decided on recruits with atleast a 2/1 vote split.

[Shaughn]

I've always had good luck with a 'loot reel' system, or I think the Suicide Kings addon is very similiar. Basically it's a running list of all your raiders that carries through every raid week. When someone takes a drop their name goes to the bottom of the list for priority on future drops. As other people get stuff your name keeps moving to the top again. Pretty easy to manage and fair loot system imo.

[Bullarkie]

imo, loot council is the better option over dkp.

This. For hardcore progression I've always had the best luck with loot council.

[frott]

I have some questions about 10 man guilds:

1) Should I use DKP? I've never seen any 10 man raids using dkp.

2) There will be no class leaders and huge roster, how to choose better players?

3) How large should the roster be? Exactly 10? Do we need an alt raid?

Good luck with a number like 10.

Honestly larger raids are easier to manage IF you don't need a max roster to win. tanks and healers will always have a minimum requirement, but DPS should scale.

With 10 mans, what if someone doesn't show up or can't? Then you need an 11th. Except what 11th will stick around not able to raid?

Then when you get two 10 mans, what happens when raid 1 has an absence and they pull someone from raid 2? Drama time.

It just sucks. The only real way of doing a consistent 10 man is scheduling it each week so the same 10 people go to the raid. Good luck finding that.


As far as loot goes, all 10 of your crew should be in it for the long haul, so randoming it is good enough. One problem is when someone gets "everything they need" out of a dungeon and quits or doesn't want to go, so you might want to distribute loot evenly. Problem with that is when a non BIS upgrade drops, someone gets it and then misses out on their real items... leads to either people passing on non-bis upgrades which hurts your raids in the long run, or someone getting butthurt because they felt obligated to go for a mediocre upgrade.

enchanting and gemming also makes people resist non-bis upgrades because it sucks to invest cash on a temporary item. OOPS GG BLIZZ

[klaps_05]

1) Hardcore = loot council
2) Choose players based on trials, time spent doing an application form and overall performance
3) Choose either a melee raid or a caster one - if you want to go hardcore you need an alt raid, pref. same or close setup as your main raid
4) You need 10 people for you main raid with at least 1 replacement for a healer and a DPS; dont take tanks who cant forsake their RL for the guild

also hardcore means fuck RL, make sure people understand that.

[Tobyone]

Loot council seems like the best solution. When you get into things like DKP, than people just save up their points for their BiS to drop which could be that day, or never. People are afraid to roll on upgrades that aren't their best, because that means when the BiS drops they can't get it over another.

I'd say have 12 or 13 people who are committed each week to raiding, and finishing that raid. Make sure that everyone has an offspec they can use almost as well as their main spec.

For who gets into the raids, be sure to rotate as much as possible, as you should have more than 10. Don't just make it about who has the highest dps. Remember that classes bring utility to raids, and diversifying the classes in the raid helps to make loot not go to waste.

For choosing new players, just have either 2 officers who know the game well. Make sure they know more than just their own class and role, that they can help to identify issues.

As a final note, remember that even for a hardcore guild, real life comes first. Things come up in life that can't be avoided. You will undoubtedly have to deal with losing a raid member or two to real life circumstances. Make it clear that while it isn't encouraged to miss raid times, that it is okay as long as it doesn't happen too often.

[apollo1]

Loot council the best way to go then you can gear up your rl friends first .

[Deleted]

have 2-3 social that can raid with you 11 ppl for the raids and ask them to have 100% attendence just rotate ppl every now and then when all 11 show up. If rarely only 9 ppl show up use a social for the spot or farm 9 man and w8 another day to do progress bosses.

You and 1-2 officer should handel like 3-4 classes each with info from elitisjerks.com
Thats all i have to say GL

[Avengingbeef]

As a member of a 10 man guild with a large partime roster dkp/gold offspec works well in that environment. Newbies tend to rack up a lot of - figures early on but thats usually balance by your regulars having their loot in the 1st place.

You have to look at your guild makeup and personalities though, ive seen too many forum threads where lack of class knowledge/Bis list's from a loot council cause tears and nerdrage(from both the players and the council). With cata's release this will become even more of a problem as so much is changing and a lot of important stats to certain classes/specs is going to alter

[skyesfury]

I have some questions about 10 man guilds:

1) Should I use DKP? I've never seen any 10 man raids using dkp.

2) There will be no class leaders and huge roster, how to choose better players?

3) How large should the roster be? Exactly 10? Do we need an alt raid?

1) The best option is to discuss this topic with your guild. The final decision should either be made by the officers and yourself or by you alone. But, knowing what your guild likes and dislikes is a major part of successfully running a guild.

2) No class leaders is fine, but you're going to have individuals that stand out among their peers in each class anyway. They may not be official CLs, but they will gain a reputation of knowing the class better than others and most people will look to them for advice for their class (or alts).

3) The size of the guild is really a non-issue. Focus on the quality of the player instead of the quantity. Quality attracts quality and quantity harbors immaturity.

[Tesyla]

I can tell you from personal experience, do NOT go with exactly 10. Not unless you hate yourself. I mean, sure, ideally that means that everyone comes and learns all fights, you all learn how each other plays, and make great progress. However, this is the real world. Sometimes, people can't make a raid. Maybe they had a family emergency, old friend came in town, work meeting held over, whatever. Then you have to look to pug a spot or 2.

I ran a 10 man guild at the start of Wrath, all the way up to just before ICC, and did so this way. I can't even begin to count how many times I explained the boss fights in Naxx and Ulduar to the pugs of the week, every week, because some people couldn't make it or what have you.

Bottom line: It's an unnecessary headache. You're better off getting a larger roster, and people who are committed to raiding, but willing to sit out raids on rotation each week, in the chance that more than 10 show up.

To answer the other 2 questions:

1. No, there's really no need to use DKP. What we did was a simple "if you can use it, roll. if you already won something, you will go behind the people who have not on the priority list. dps roll on hit gear, healers roll on mp5 gear, etc. If no one rolls main, it goes to offspec, for which anyone who can use it for offspec can roll. If no one rolls off, it gets DE'd and the shard goes to the gbank to fund guild repairs/enchants." This especially works in those chances that you have to grab a pug. Just be sure if an item like the key for heroic EoE exists in cata, you specify to any guildies and pugs that it will go to raid leaders/officers first, before opening up to the rest of the raid. This ensures no one jacks your guild's key to said raid.

2. You choose better players by running raids with them. If you're talking about how to recruit, initially, just grab people who you did 5-mans with along the way. It helps if you have a small group to start with, though. Don't be afraid to host pug raids. Pug raids can be a great source of recruits, especially if you are a good raid leader. I got so many people interested in my guild simply from our pug Naxx raids we ran back in the day. This allowed me to get a solid roster of players heading into Ulduar. Don't do guild apps, they're a waste of time. What someone writes up on the computer does nothing to show how competent they are as a raider. Bad players can get carried through all kinds of stuff. The only real way to test someone's skill is to bring them along. Sure, you chance slowing progress down doing so, but it is the best way to ensure you are getting quality players. On the other hand, don't bring a raid full of pugs if you don't have to. Once I had enough players to do full 10 mans, and I would have people interested in joining the guild, I would bring no more than TWO (2) per week with us on our raids. This ensures that the raid likely won't be a complete failure, and, since you have 7 of your regular raiders, allows you to focus on the performance of the potential recruits.

Also, I would recommend setting up a rule to not allow guildie alts to come on main raid nights in place of their mains. I know people like to play many characters, but if you allow something like this to happen, next thing you know, you're making minimal progress because you're constantly gearing a revolving door of alts. This also goes for off-specs. The rule I used was if someone decided they wanted to change their main/spec, they needed to make sure this was for sure what they wanted to do. When they made that decision, they had a minimum of 2 months before they were able to bring their old character/spec back as their "new" main/spec. Again, this seems harsh, but it's just explain that the rule is there for the sake of progression.

There are probably some things I'm forgetting here, but that should pretty much cover the basics. Sorry for the wall of text.

Oh, and also, in reference to the person who mentioned that good players will watch videos prior to the encounter. Make that a REQUIREMENT! If you are working on progression in a raid, require all raid members to watch videos on the upcoming boss encounter, and note what their role is in the fight. This is not an outrageous requirement to have, as the videos are rarely more than maybe 10 minutes of their time, and if they're even remotely serious about raiding, they shouldn't have a problem with NOT going into a fight blindly. If you get someone who complains about or refuses to do this, they are not the kind of raider you are looking for.

The thing about a 10 man guild is, you really need some pretty strong commitment from your raiders if you want to succeed. Each person is drastically more important in their roles than in 25 man. Each dps needs to understand what they do and where to stand, each tank needs to recognize the fight mechanics, each healer needs to know the fights inside and out to be able to predict (to an extent) when they are likely to see damage spikes and such.

Oh, and this probably goes without saying, but make chat (vent, ts, mumble, etc) MANDATORY, as well as key raid addons. If some dps or tank can't be assed to download a threat meter, or someone won't download DBM, or someone refuses to download vent, THERE IS NO REASON TO KEEP THEM AROUND. If they don't have a mic, that's usually ok (unless they're a tank, in which case, mics are required), but they need to at least have and be logged onto vent, ts, mumble, etc., during all raids, for the full duration of the raid.