Seal damage, an outdated mechanic?

[Frozen Death Knight]

Hello, I would like to have some discussion on some concerns I've had for a while about seals.

As I have looked at how seals have been handled in the "Cataclysm" Beta, with the extreme nerfs in damage output, I am starting to get this feeling that seals shouldn't even do damage, anymore.

To put this mechanic into perspective, back in Vanilla and TBC seals were pretty much our only real damage resource, aside from Judgement and auto attacks, and most of a Paladin's time was put into managing these things, in terms of damage. The reason these seals did damage to begin with was to compensate for the lack of button attacks we had. Also, some of our seals had special effects, like Seal of the Crusader, which increased attack speed and its judgement increased holy damage from all our other seals/attacks. Granted many of these effects were quite bland and were very situational, but it was quite fun when you found some use of them.

Then came WotLK. New abilities were added. Crusader Strike became a bit more useful compared to its TBC version, Divine Storm gave us a more viable AoE damage than Concecration, and Exorcism was in 3.1 finally useful against every unit, not just Undead/Demons. Though, we lost some of our "interesting" seals, which had certain special effects. Still, we earned new Judgements (JoL, JoW and JoJ.), which made up for this loss a bit. Though, seals were still a big chunk of our dps, and Blizzard started to think that it was a problem, because it removed a lot of the personal control over the damage, and decided to act.

Now, in "Cataclysm", seals seems to shape up to be probably the most uninteresting thing we have, in our arsenal. All the interesting parts about the original seal system are gone and the amount of Judgements have been reduced to a nerfed Judgemnt of Light. If seals are doing so bad in damage, I think it's time for a total redesign of them, or should I say, a reimplementation of the old design.

When I mean "old design", I do not mean the kind of seals that were back in Vanilla and TBC, and that they should be lasting for a shorter duration and need to be refreshed after Judgement, but something that works similar in terms of giving special effects to things like Judgement. To me, that part of the mechanic was interesting, fun, and gave a bit more depth to the gameplay.

---

So now I'm asking you, what do you think? Do you believe the same as me and think they should be redesigned? If you do, write some ideas on what you would like to see being implemented, in our current seals that could be useful, in a way Blizzard think these seals should be used for(Seal of Justice=PvP, Seal of Truth=long single target dps, Seal of Righteousness=short single/multiple target dps, etc.).

[Renagade Raven]

I miss having to reapply seals after each judgement, gave us something to think about whether Prot, Ret, or Holy...

Rather than removing damage entirely, I think they should return to different seals having different effects, with a different judgement effect depending on which one we used.
Bring back seal of the crusader at least =O

E.G. Seal of the Righteous should do a lot of damage, Seal of the Crusader increases attack speed, or I guess haste now. I agree with you in that respect, but I would like to have to reapply the seals too, rather than just hitting out moves like any other melee class does. Made Paladins different =]

[Deleted]

Then someone will theorycraft which of those seals is Max DPS and you will use only this particular one all the time.

[Frozen Death Knight]

I miss having to reapply seals after each judgement, gave us something to think about whether Prot, Ret, or Holy...

Rather than removing damage entirely, I think they should return to different seals having different effects, with a different judgement effect depending on which one we used.
Bring back seal of the crusader at least =O

E.G. Seal of the Righteous should do a lot of damage, Seal of the Crusader increases attack speed, or I guess haste now. I agree with you in that respect, but I would like to have to reapply the seals too, rather than just hitting out moves like any other melee class does. Made Paladins different =]

Yeah, it was a fun mechanic, but it was the only fun mechanic to use, when dpsing. Pretty much the rest of the time you had to watch your weapon swing, which I thought was quite boring. Besides, going back to the old style of re-applying seals+judging is long gone and will be a lot harder to balance and have as a mechanic, with the new CS+CS+CS-->TV rotation. Also, the fact that we use Judgement as a mana restoration mechanic+gap closer in PvP will make it quite tedious when our cooldowns clash together, which will certainly happen, even without the old seal mechanics.

As for your suggestions, having Seal of Righteousness do simply more damage to me sounds quite bland. Also, in PvE, and in many cases PvP, damaging increasing seals always have had a huge impact in balancing those two things. Plus, they would make many of the "special effect" seals feel a lot more useless, because of the significant damage loss, which has been proven all throughout the history of this game. I mean, when was the last time you used the current Seal of Justice on live, in PvP/PvE? As we all know, more damage will always be the main factor, when using any spell, when being a dpser.

When it comes to Seal of the Crusader, even if it was fun to see your weapon swing faster, I feel that it was just as good that Blizzard got rid of it. It doesn't fit into the current philosophy of WoW and since I would rather like to see things like a long fight single target seal, an AoE seal and a specific PvP seal, the effect of that seal doesn't really cut it.

---------- Post added 2010-09-17 at 11:58 AM ----------

Then someone will theorycraft which of those seals is Max DPS and you will use only this particular one all the time.

My point was that the seals that are currently in game (Seal of Truth=long term single target dps, Seal of Righteousness=short term single/multiple target dps and Seal of Justice=PvP seal.) should still be designed the way they are designed, now, but instead of making it just pure passive holy damage, give spells like Judgement effects that promote that kind of gameplay. I am sure it is possible to design something like that and it really gives some flavour to the class, as a whole, in my opinion.

[Talen]

So now I'm asking you, what do you think? Do you believe the same as me and think they should be redesigned? If you do, write some ideas on what you would like to see being implemented, in our current seals that could be useful, in a way Blizzard think these seals should be used for(Seal of Justice=PvP, Seal of Truth=long single target dps, Seal of Righteousness=short single/multiple target dps, etc.).

At present...Seals are an artifact that needs rethinking. They are too passive to do much damage, but at the same time, they're too weak to be interesting.

The mechanic and concept is interesting. But Blizzards desire to "reign in" Paladins has neutered them. A Shamans wepon imbues and unleash mechanic are Seals done "right".

Seals should be a useful mechanic for all specs. But right now I'be heard they're doign so little damage the best bet in many situations if to use Seal of Insight...the damage loss isn't that great, butt he mana/hp recovery really cuts down on downtime.

Its a pity...they'd finally arrived at a spot where most Seals were of some benefit.

However...if it were up to me, I'd:

SoV: Altered into dedicated attack. Blasts the target with Holy energy to deal X damage over y seconds.
SoI: Recover health plus mana.
SoR: Weapon strikes deal 10% extra damage as Holy.
SoC: Multi target - weapons strikes deal 25% extra damage as holy to targets 2 closest allies.
SoJ: PvP - Targets speed is limited to 100% for 10s and your attacks deals 10% of their damage to the targets mana pool.

All Seals modify Judgement damage but do not enable it.

EJL

[Requital]

Seal damage was outdated in BC we never should have seen Seal Damage in wotlk it's the main reason we have never been balanced.

[Ozmademos]

So now I'm asking you, what do you think? Do you believe the same as me and think they should be redesigned? If you do, write some ideas on what you would like to see being implemented, in our current seals that could be useful, in a way Blizzard think these seals should be used for(Seal of Justice=PvP, Seal of Truth=long single target dps, Seal of Righteousness=short single/multiple target dps, etc.).

I've noticed that the Chakra talents for Priests are really a modernized version of how Paladin seals should be working too. Essentially, they get Power Word: Chastise which is a castable spell having a different effect based on what Chakra state the Priest is in (gaining the Chakra state comes from casting certain spells three times consecutively, ie Renew or Prayer of Healing).

Power Word: Chastise is essentially like our Judgement, and the spell they would use to get into their Chakra state would be like a Seal. There's no incentive to have 30min Seals anymore, since (as far as my believe and opinion goes) the 30min extension was a reaction to Paladins having no real mana regeneration except Spiritual Attunement; activating a Seal and Judging constantly consumed too much mana to sustain dps for long periods without swapping Seals for a dps loss. With Mana being almost in endless supply for Paladins, the idea of shorter Seal time sounds more reasonable.

The idea, then, might be to have a Seal give the Paladin some short term ability/buff that performs a secondary function when Judgement is used. So, Seals would go back to 15-20 sec and then:

Seal of Insight - the Paladin gains x% additional healing effectiveness and y% mana per 5 while the Seal is active. Judging an enemy target will heal the Paladin for [some amount] and restore [some other amount] of mana; Judging a friendly target will heal that target (any maybe all targets near them) for [some amount equivalent perhaps to Holy Shock].

Seal of Truth - each weapon swing would apply the stacking debuff up to five times (essentially the same as now). Judging an enemy target will deal 33% weapon damage and some secondary effect (like, reduce that targets damage by 10%, or maybe reduce that targets armor by some amount, or even makes that target vunerable to Holy Damage by some amount for the next 15-20 sec). This would be both the Tanking and Dpsing Seal for long term single-target.

Seal of Righteousness - each weapon swing would apply a stacking buff (up to 3 times, maybe 5) to the Paladin of Righteous Vengenence, increasing Holy Damage done by some factor. Judging an enemy target will consume all stacks of Righteous Vengenence to deal Holy Damage (modified by weapon damage) to all enemy targets within 15 yards of the Paladin. (Total damage is divided equally among the number of enemy targets). Short term/Burst/multi-target Seal.

Seal of Justice - each weapon swing does Holy Damage modified by weapon damage (kind of like now) and applies a stacking buff (probably only 2 or 3 stacks) increasing the Paladin's movement speed by some %. Judging an enemy target will reduce the target's movement speed by 50% for some amount of time; Judging a friendly target will remove movement imparing effects (or perhaps additional CC abilities).

This takes the idea of a static Seal and makes it work for all three classes. Each one is actively doing something for each Paladin no matter what spec they are.

[raziel083]

If i'm understanding this thread correctly, it seems as though people want to go back to the seal twisting we did in burning crusade. I actually wouldn't mind that at all if that's the case. If i remember correctly we had another seal called seal of the crusader(?). You'd open and judge with that to increase your holy damage to whatever seal and judgement you'd apply next. In a ret's case it was Seal of Command. A lot of people didn't seem to know that though.

Off topic...kinda, i thought i remember blizzard saying that the healing aspect of our JoL would be baked into our one judgement that we used for cataclysm. Same thing with sheath of light, wasn't that going to be put into our mastery?

OT: The seal mechanics we had(twisting) would seem to work if it was re-worked somehow. Like using cs and/or tv would have to keep the de-buff up and refreshed that way we wouldn't have to constantly keep refreshing our seal buff to re-apply it. I'm sure that idea has been brought up before, but for whatever reason blizzard never applied it obviously. Why is just beyond me.

[Anderone]

When Death Knights were implemented in WotLK Beta and I was reading all their changes on Mmo-Champion, I was looking at the Runeforge systems and I was thinking to myself Seals should behave this way. Example:

Seal of Truth: Enchant your weapon to occasionally increase your strength by 15% for 15 seconds.
Seal of Insight: Enchant your melee weapon to occasionally grant you 5% of your maximum mana.
Seal of Justice: Enchant your melee weapon to occasionally grant you a 10% armour bonus for 20 seconds.

etc etc

But in reality we need Seals right now as a source of Holy Damage or else whats the point of Inquisition with a big part of our holy damage gone.

[Vizardlorde]

When Death Knights were implemented in WotLK Beta and I was reading all their changes on Mmo-Champion, I was looking at the Runeforge systems and I was thinking to myself Seals should behave this way. Example:

Seal of Truth: Enchant your weapon to occasionally increase your strength by 15% for 15 seconds.
Seal of Insight: Enchant your melee weapon to occasionally grant you 5% of your maximum mana.
Seal of Justice: Enchant your melee weapon to occasionally grant you a 10% armour bonus for 20 seconds.

etc etc

But in reality we need Seals right now as a source of Holy Damage or else whats the point of Inquisition with a big part of our holy damage gone.

scrap it and give us savage roar lol

[Ozmademos]

If i'm understanding this thread correctly, it seems as though people want to go back to the seal twisting we did in burning crusade. I actually wouldn't mind that at all if that's the case. If i remember correctly we had another seal called seal of the crusader(?). You'd open and judge with that to increase your holy damage to whatever seal and judgement you'd apply next. In a ret's case it was Seal of Command. A lot of people didn't seem to know that though.

I certainly didnt mind swapping Seals. Having Seal of Veng up for 5 stacks, then switching to Righteousness or Corruption while tanking wasnt overly difficult to maintain and even made it a bit challenging. I suppose the same might hold true for the proposed Seal changes I had above. A Holy Paladin in an Arena could begin with Judging Justice to an enemy to apply the movement debuff, then switch to Insight for the healing/mana. Or, conversely, a Ret or Prot in an arena could have Justice to start, Judge for the movement debuff then swap to Truth to apply as many stacks of Truth as possible before the movement speed wears off. There are various possibilities for raiding as well to offer utility when needed or just healing/dpsing when not needed.

[Gokey]

Seals are so boring atm, seal of truth is decent but rest are pathetic....

Should make them more like shaman windfury/earthliving etc

[Inanyas]

I liked the old style seals, especially Seal of Command, it was very fun when judging it did extra damage to stunned targets.

<3 Seal of the Crusader

[Samin]

The reapplying of seals after judgement maybe was cool when judging was basically our only ability when dpsing (aaand yes..dpsing wasn't really a paladin thing back then anyway).
If you look at cata, we really don't need more buttons to push. It is also nothing you have to think about. You always reapply the same seal after a judgement. Not really fun, just tedious.
I think seals are fine as a mechanic, having to choose between a single target/sustained dps seal (truth) or a aoe/burst seal (rightousness). For holy seal and judgement mechanics is kind of meh. It just gives them better healing. Maybe with a talent that makes judgement under seal of insight a heal (friendly target) could be interesting. But we have holy shock for that healing niche already I guess.
I really don't know if seal damage is a bad or good mechanic. Seal of Truth helps removing burst while keeping sustained dps up I guess

[Vasti]

Seals need to be changed to utiility buffs rather then damage sources.

We jsut need 3 anyway:
Seal of Righteousness-You hit 2 additional targets within 8yrds for X% of your weapon damage
Seal of Truth-Your strikes leave a Dot on the target that deals Y% damage over Z seconds
Seal of Insight-Your strikes have a chance to restore 4% of your base mana and health.

No more damage increase. No more ramp up time with seal of truth. Since with the new healthpools, you cant burst anyone down anyway, so why the need for a ramp up time?

[Ozmademos]

Seals need to be changed to utiility buffs rather then damage sources.

We jsut need 3 anyway:
Seal of Righteousness-You hit 2 additional targets within 8yrds for X% of your weapon damage
Seal of Truth-Your strikes leave a Dot on the target that deals Y% damage over Z seconds
Seal of Insight-Your strikes have a chance to restore 4% of your base mana and health.

No more damage increase. No more ramp up time with seal of truth. Since with the new healthpools, you cant burst anyone down anyway, so why the need for a ramp up time?

Isnt this how it will be though? Except that you're taking the 5 stacks away from Seal of Truth. One of the problems I see is that you have to be hitting something in melee to get the benefit of a Seal. That's why I suggested that Judgement could be used on friendly targets as well as enemies. That, or Holy Shock could be fixed to consume the suggested Seal of Insight I had above.

[Dualkalibur]

The only problem I have with judging a friendly target is its more of an offensive ability than a helpful one. When a paladin judges a wicked foe he finds them to be deserving of punishment and then delivers that punishment. Judging a friendly target/ally and buffing/healing them seems clunky. "I judge thee! Thou art.... Not guilty. Have some health and a free puppy!"

I would like to see seals be more interesting as well, but I'd have to think about how I'd find it fun as a healer with a dps offspec... The only thing that really comes to mind is using the new holy power as a modifier for the seals. Given that seals are holy in nature, having more holy power SHOULD in theory make them stronger, while not consuming them.

I dunno, would have to play with ideas but something like holy power giving 20/40/60% chance for Holy paladins judgment with seal of insight up not cost mana to mix things up a bit. Near the end of the fight, when mana is low, do you cast judgement at 2 holy power to keep it up on the boss or let is fall off for a second to throw out a heal to the tank then judge at 3 holy power for the higher chance to keep your mana up for the fight? Do you judge at no holy power to get the buff on quick because massive aoe just happened and all the melee are hurt and you need to start healing them all up quickly? This would have more situational use for a judgement and go with the decision making they want to happen more than simply hitting judgement to unleash the seals energy for a boring bit of damage/small secondary effect.

As for ret and prot, well, those who do it for a mainspec would have far better input than I do, I rarely go ret cept for the odd grind/rare chance to dps in a pug.

[Vasti]

Isnt this how it will be though? Except that you're taking the 5 stacks away from Seal of Truth. One of the problems I see is that you have to be hitting something in melee to get the benefit of a Seal. That's why I suggested that Judgement could be used on friendly targets as well as enemies. That, or Holy Shock could be fixed to consume the suggested Seal of Insight I had above.

in cata the seals will do damage still and we got the stacks on SoTruth and we got SoJustice...the RNG stunner....does anyone ever use SoJustice?

[Requital]

in cata the seals will do damage still and we got the stacks on SoTruth and we got SoJustice...the RNG stunner....does anyone ever use SoJustice?

I used justice one time on accident when i fat fingered a key if that counts.

However i use to use JoJ all the time in PvP and ToGC against faction champions.

[Reefiis]

Then someone will theorycraft which of those seals is Max DPS and you will use only this particular one all the time.

They make a good point, i like where its at now anyways (on 4.0), it has a little more dynamic mechanics to it especially after all the changes (However some things do seem kind of clunky), I find it a lot more interesting than clicking 1 judgement and having to click the same seal buffs over and over, i find it about as fun as having to refresh lightning shield all the time, yeah you have more to hit, but its not really cool or interesting.