the end all debate: arena vs bg

[Bobzor]

Arena doesn't take skill, it takes a class that has the best CC, burst damage, or survivability. There's just some classes that are just horrible in arena because of there lack of, or horrible survivability, cc, or burst damage. Battlegrounds are more fun because every class is good at it, and useful. It also takes more skill in coordinating 10,15,25,40 people to work together to accomplish a common goal. A goal of winning.

Oh man. You almost had me at your side at the end there. ^ Braveheart

[Naraga]

Arena doesn't take skill, it takes a class that has the best CC, burst damage, or survivability. There's just some classes that are just horrible in arena because of there lack of, or horrible survivability, cc, or burst damage.

There is not a single class that is bad at arena, stop talking about things you have no idea about.

[Rakeer]

BG = areanas
just BGs have more people, bigger fights, more things to react to, an objective thats not simply "kill", more use of the terrain in combat, etc.

[Naraga]

BG = areanas
just BGs have more people, bigger fights, more things to react to, an objective thats not simply "kill", more use of the terrain in combat, etc.

Cause the more people the more skill the fight takes.

5v5 is the perfect example, as it clearly takes more skill than 2v2 and 3v3. j/k

Edit: Also right clicking a flag adds in alot of depth to the fights.

[cFortyfive]

bgs are just more enjoyable for pve heroes go stand in the caster camp and spam your pve rotation.

[Clockwork Pinkie]

BGs. More people, more fun. And it's always fun to steal kills.

[Hellgrazr]

yep

[ranko85]

Arenas definitely take more skill, but vanilla pre-made vs pre-made BGs were the most fun I've had in this game.

[Bobzor]

BG = areanas
just BGs have more people, bigger fights, more things to react to, an objective thats not simply "kill", more use of the terrain in combat, etc.

More use of terrain, really?

[ItachiZaku]

one-two guys that know what the hell they are supposed to do can't turn the tables in an AV game where the mindless swarm of bads RUSH DREK LOLOL LETS DO ALTERAC BLITZ LOLOLOL SURE WIN.

Oh, I don't know about that one. Let me (resto druid) roll with a good DK, and we'll practically win the AV match. Something as simple as back capping IB and TP, to DGing into Drek or Cycloning the MT with multiple healer locks... The amount of tanks that can take Drek with 3-4 up is rare when they go in having only 1-2 healers.

[Mephisto88]

I would like to quote Akrios on this:
(you have the full version at roguerogue.com)

But at this point in WoW? People blindly accept that arena is synonamous with PvP and Skill, and they are happy to sit idling in Dalaran until their partners log on, and are willing to call this a game. You can blame Blizzard all you want for ruining wow, but the community let it happen and gradually accepted it, and what hope is there for the game to improve when the community doesn’t even know what the problem is.

A lot of players who never played before WOTLK have no understanding of this game or its potential depth. They are told that 3v3 arena is all that matters in understanding skill and they follow this idea pretty blindly.

This all leads me down another path of thought. People talking about skill who have no fucking idea what skill is or what they are talking about.

This isn’t really a new trend but it’s one that has expanded greatly. You have this entire segment of the player base that only see this game through arena and arena ratings and gear scores. A lot of these players are elitists, and they don’t even know why. A big reason is that they emulate what they see from peers I suppose. These are the players that base skill entirely on meaningless arena rating. Not on reaction time, timing, control, movement, consistency, coordination, but arena rating.

So here’s a quick explanation of top level arena in WoW and how it relates to skill, because I think a lot of people don’t understand this. Skill is not the major factor in success in WoW arena. It may have been in BC, or even earlier in WOTLK, but as the expansion has progressed, what determines your success in arena is moreso the following factors:

What Comp Do you Play? What class do you play? What Spec do you Play?

Since the inception of arena, this has always been true to a certain degree, but in the past (TBC) skilled players could overcome the fact they were playing a weaker comp or spec or even class in arena. Today? Look at the trends of beast cleave or wizard cleaves. Want to succeed as a rogue? Make an RLS. I played RLS early this season for less than a week and barely knowing the comp got 2750+ mmr with cirranis who clicks out of his spellbook and shoewhistle, an alt warlock. I exaggerate because they are both competent players, but the key is certainly the comp. I’m fairly certain I could play with any competent RLS and succeed at the moment. I think any two decent healers and a warrior can achieve ratings for the same reasons that DK/Pally dominated 2s early in the expansion.

Is skill a factor? Yes, but what’s much more important than that is the people you play with and the classes you play with. Which brings me to my next point in this rant.

The Other Big Factor in Success in Arena is Who you Know in WoW and Who you Play with

You know what’s more important than skill in this game? Playing with the most well connected players and socially networking with them. When I was looking around to get sponsored in the past, I got a first hand look at what it took. Step one is be friends with other people who are sponsored. If you are not, you will almost certainly not succeed. That’s it. If you aren’t good friends with the handful of sponsored players, don’t expect to do anything unless you can qualify for that once a year tournament realm, and can find the right comp and committed players for it which can be almost impossible.

(you have the full version at roguerogue.com)

[Balduvian]

There is no doubt that arena takes more skill, although class/combo/gear is more important in arena's then in BG's.

On the other hand, BG's requires more teamwork, and class/combo is ALOT less important.

[Posokhov]

I would like to quote Akrios on this:
(you have the full version at roguerogue.com)



(you have the full version at roguerogue.com)

Akrios also said in another post: "You can say what you want about WOTLK pvp balance but in comparison to any BC season things are far more balanced and diverse (a lot of people forget that the only real team that mattered by mid BC was WLD and to a lesser extent RMP)."

He flip-flops season to season based solely on where rogues stand in SK-100 and using that as his basis for whether things are skill based or not. Nothing to see here, just a "I'M NOT WINNING, IT'S NOT SKILL BASED ANY MORE!" whine-blog.

More use of terrain, really?

Of course. They can launch people off ledges. That's more use of terrain than all of arenas combined, clearly.

Cause the more people the more skill the fight takes.

5v5 is the perfect example, as it clearly takes more skill than 2v2 and 3v3. j/k

Edit: Also right clicking a flag adds in alot of depth to the fights.

Someone nailed it. 5v5 inflates PvP imbalances

[AdamsGaming]

PvP is PvP, doesn't matter if I am playing Halo Reach or World of Warcraft the point of it is to predict what your opponent is doing and testing your reaction time to his/her action.

Arena is a tighter more fast-paced environment than Battlegrounds are, however they both measure the same skill.

[Gilian]

The argument arena is not balanced has nothing to do with how good you are. You can still get high rating without perfect class balance and show that you are good. Especially if you only have 1800 rating. You can't blame unbalanced classes for not getting higher rating than 1800.
Also if you have the same set ups fighting in arena they have the exact same chances of winning so it all comes down to skill.

In BG's you have more situations where it is impossible to win of the opposing team. You have way more chance of being carried by the other 9, 14 or more people. I don't see how AV can show skill in rated BG's. It's even better to just not fight any alliance and skip everything and just tank and spank Vann. Has nothing to do with PvP also.

[Bobzor]

The argument arena is not balanced has nothing to do with how good you are. You can still get high rating without perfect class balance and show that you are good. Especially if you only have 1800 rating. You can't blame unbalanced classes for not getting higher rating than 1800.
Also if you have the same set ups fighting in arena they have the exact same chances of winning so it all comes down to skill.

In BG's you have more situations where it is impossible to win of the opposing team. You have way more chance of being carried by the other 9, 14 or more people. I don't see how AV can show skill in rated BG's. It's even better to just not fight any alliance and skip everything and just tank and spank Vann. Has nothing to do with PvP also.

In PvP it's always one team that is winning. Why did they beat the other team? Most of the times because they played better.
That goes for both arenas and BGs.
If you lose to a team in rated BGs they're obviously outperforming you and you need to shape up and change something to be more successful.

[Gilian]

You know what’s more important than skill in this game? Playing with the most well connected players and socially networking with them. When I was looking around to get sponsored in the past, I got a first hand look at what it took. Step one is be friends with other people who are sponsored. If you are not, you will almost certainly not succeed. That’s it. If you aren’t good friends with the handful of sponsored players, don’t expect to do anything unless you can qualify for that once a year tournament realm, and can find the right comp and committed players for it which can be almost impossible.

What's that for nonsense. Ofcourse it is, that's how every competitive sport works. It's also a MMO not a single player game. Ofcourse your succes depends on your partner(s). Doesn't it in BG's? Does he win 1vs10?

[Mephisto88]

Akrios also said in another post: "You can say what you want about WOTLK pvp balance but in comparison to any BC season things are far more balanced and diverse (a lot of people forget that the only real team that mattered by mid BC was WLD and to a lesser extent RMP)."

He flip-flops season to season based solely on where rogues stand in SK-100 and using that as his basis for whether things are skill based or not. Nothing to see here, just a "I'M NOT WINNING, IT'S NOT SKILL BASED ANY MORE!" whine-blog.

You really hate rogues, do you? I mean, I'm a warrior and I hate 'em 2, but you really really hate them?

[Naraga]

Of course. They can launch people off ledges. That's more use of terrain than all of arenas combined, clearly.

Blades edge and Dalaran arena .

[molinator]

Well I lost my huge rant about BGs vs Arenas, but it comes down to this:

Arena is currently the only place in game where you're severely punished for explicit mistakes that you or your team make.

Did you not LOS the chaos bolt that killed you because you didn't see it coming?

Did you overlap CC on a target?

Arena forces you to address every last detail of combat if you want to improve because you are facing human opponents who will take advantage of you at any opportunity. This makes for an environment where you are rewarded for improving your ability to control your character and use your abilities correctly - and correspondingly punished for not improving by plateauing or losing team rating.

BGs simply do not have those same competitive conditions, and thus are inferior environments for improving yourself.

Rated BGs will be different, and will introduce higher order strategies that will make for incredibly interesting matches. However everything I've learned in Arena will be relevant in rated BGs because combat is still very important. In fact you can count on incredibly coordinated teams having RPMs, WLDs and other go-to team compositions defending nodes because of their synergy.