Build 12984 Shaman Changes

[nazrakin]

I don't like the Windfury concept at all... All it does is that it attacks with some extra AP. Not % of AP or weapon damage or anything like that, but exact number.

What are you talking about? WF does scale with Weapon damage and AP. It is basically 200% weapon damage with the bonus AP factored in. Almost every instant weapon attack has a static damage bonus.

[Sarevokcz]

What are you talking about? WF does scale with Weapon damage and AP. It is basically 200% weapon damage with the bonus AP factored in. Almost every instant weapon attack has a static damage bonus.

WF isnt instant attack tho. IMO, best comparison would be poisons. do they scale with both attack speed AND AP or not?

[Wickedpissah]

What are you talking about? WF does scale with Weapon damage and AP. It is basically 200% weapon damage with the bonus AP factored in. Almost every instant weapon attack has a static damage bonus.

I believe what Toobad is saying is that when you're at the level cap and the bonus AP from WF doesn't increase with level anymore, the amount of bonus AP granted by WF procs becomes less effective as your gear gets better than at lower gear levels.

Say I have 10k attack power in the first tier of level 85. With the bonus AP from a WF proc being (for example) 5k extra attack power, the hits would hit for 15k attack power. Assume you're in the final Cataclysm tier now and you have 15k attack power (I have no idea what level 85 attack power actually is, so these are just guesses). The extra 5k WF proc AP has effectively gone down from (15k/10k = ) 1.5x to (20k/15k = ) 1.33x. So, the amount of relative damage that WF does decreases as you get better gear. It's similar to the Totem of Wrath vs. Demonic Pact issue. One grants a flat bonus while the other grants a percentage of spell power. Early on, the flat bonus is better, but with gear scaling, the percentage-based increase becomes more effective.

Again, I'm not trying to put words into Toobad's mouth, but I believe this is the effect he's talking about.

[nazrakin]

my thought on not scaling. SS debuff change, windfury and flametongue being static numbers, spell crits going to 150% from 200% to name a few (from enh perspective of course)

You left out Mastery, the change to Mental Dexterity, UE, LS now critting, and the new LL.

Also, Windfury is not a "Static number" it behaves like most instant weapon attacks which gets a static *bonus*, it still scales with weapon damage.

[AedanWolfe]

You left out Mastery, the change to Mental Dexterity, UE, LS now critting, and the new LL.

Also, Windfury is not a "Static number" it behaves like most instant weapon attacks which gets a static *bonus*, it still scales with weapon damage.

so whats the purpose of the static bonus?

also the mental dexterity change is a mixed bag, UE is laughable, and the new LL is a bad mechanic (not even about scaling there, it just is a bad mechanic).

mastery is better since they change it from nature to elemental, though still a bit odd because while a large portion of our damage is elemental, a equal if not larger portion is physical.

LS critting is shmexy though.

[Pope]

Why is everybody crying about windfury?
I don't get it.
Explain it to me.

You are crying because Windfury adds a static amount of AP?
Well good morning my dear, IT'S BEEN LIKE THAT FOREVER !! LIKE... ALWAYS!

live: Imbue the Shaman's weapon with wind. Each hit has a 20% chance of dealing additional damage equal to two extra attacks with 1250 extra attack power. Lasts 30 minutes.
cata: Imbue the Shaman's weapon with wind. Each hit has a 20% chance of dealing additional damage equal to two extra attacks with 4430 extra attack power. Lasts 30 minutes.

So... It is a buff. Why the fuck are you crying?

[Radux]

On Mana Tide Totem:

I'm sure the change will be similar in mana return; that is not my issue.
I'm having issues with the party limitations, still. Spirit only matters to healers (yeah, a couple of dps specs -- 'oh yay. more hit'). So what's the issue, now?
5 minute cooldown still seems a bit excessive for something like this.

[nazrakin]

I believe what Toobad is saying is that when you're at the level cap and the bonus AP from WF doesn't increase with level anymore, the amount of bonus AP granted by WF procs becomes less effective as your gear gets better than at lower gear levels.

Say I have 10k attack power in the first tier of level 85. With the bonus AP from a WF proc being (for example) 5k extra attack power, the hits would hit for 15k attack power. Assume you're in the final Cataclysm tier now and you have 15k attack power (I have no idea what level 85 attack power actually is, so these are just guesses). The extra 5k WF proc AP has effectively gone down from (15k/10k = ) 1.5x to (20k/15k = ) 1.33x. So, the amount of relative damage that WF does decreases as you get better gear. It's similar to the Totem of Wrath vs. Demonic Pact issue. One grants a flat bonus while the other grants a percentage of spell power. Early on, the flat bonus is better, but with gear scaling, the percentage-based increase becomes more effective.

Again, I'm not trying to put words into Toobad's mouth, but I believe this is the effect he's talking about.

Thats how most instant weapon attacks work. MS does Weapon damage + 423, SS is 115% + 203, Frost Strike is 110% + 305. This makes WF weapon damage + ~1000, the amount is modified by weapon speed. Most attacks have those little static bonuses. A similar thing happens with every spell in the game, they have a base damage value that never changes but that doesn't mean they "don't scale".

[Pope]

Yeah, why do you all forget that windfury scales a lot.
It scales with Your Weaponspeed, your Weapondamage, and therefore YOUR AP.

The more AP you have, the more damage you do with your Weapons. This is also true for Windfury Weapon.

Or do you want to tell me you deal the same damage with a level 10 dagger and with an ICC-axe, just because the Windfury buff on them is the same?

I don't think so, tim.

[Sarevokcz]

Thats how most instant weapon attacks work. MS does Weapon damage + 423, SS is 115% + 203, Frost Strike is 110% + 305. This makes WF weapon damage + ~1000, the amount is modified by weapon speed. Most attacks have those little static bonuses. A similar thing happens with every spell in the game, they have a base damage value that never changes but that doesn't mean they "don't scale".

again, WF isnt instant weapon attack.
How are working poisons? do they have same mechanic as WF? meaning scalling only with weapon damage, but not with AP? or the other way?

[nazrakin]

WF isnt instant attack tho. IMO, best comparison would be poisons. do they scale with both attack speed AND AP or not?

WF is considered an instant attack, it is modified by weapon damage. Poisons aren't anything like WF. They are calculated similar to spells, using AP in place of SP. They do still have a (static) base value that is modified by AP.

[Pope]

again, WF isnt instant weapon attack.
How are working poisons? do they have same mechanic as WF? meaning scalling only with weapon damage, but not with AP? or the other way?

poisons scale with AP, by a certain coefficient.

Why do you say "only with weapon damage, but not with AP"
this does not make sense.
Big news for you: AP increases Weapon damage

[Backpack]

-link-


Look at picture
Another prof how Americans are smart

/facepalm

[Bullettime]

The responses to these shaman posts are really starting to get depressing. The shaman community complains up a shitstorm when they don't get a buff, then when they do, there is always little to no excitement or a YES moment. They complain again that they didn't get X ability or Y buff or that Z is unique buff got taken. There are no more unique buffs and it looks like they're taking the right steps to compensating. Just took longer than hoped. I feel for the class for typically being the low man on the pole but sometimes I agree with ghostcrawler's responses to you all.

[nazrakin]

so whats the purpose of the static bonus?

also the mental dexterity change is a mixed bag, UE is laughable, and the new LL is a bad mechanic (not even about scaling there, it just is a bad mechanic).

mastery is better since they change it from nature to elemental, though still a bit odd because while a large portion of our damage is elemental, a equal if not larger portion is physical.

LS critting is shmexy though.

What is the point of any attack being given a static bonus or base value? Its one of those "knobs" Blizz uses to regulate damage output.

20% more SP from AP is a "mixed bag"? Its a significant increase in SP scaling. Are you trying to say theres not much difference between a Lightning bolt with 3k SP behind it and a bolt with 5k SP behind it?

What is so laughable about UE? Its a 30% increase in FS + 30% haste, both decent "scaling buffs". The only thing possibly laughable about it is the amount of damage the WF part of it does.

I'm not talking about LL's mechanics (I agree they are bad), I'm talking about the insane scaling the attack now has.

---------- Post added 2010-09-18 at 05:29 PM ----------

poisons scale with AP, by a certain coefficient.

Why do you say "only with weapon damage, but not with AP"
this does not make sense.
Big news for you: AP increases Weapon damage

I'm glad someone understands how our attacks work. I know that our class still has some big issues, but spreading misinformation and trying to spin every change into something negative isn't going to help.

[AedanWolfe]

static buffs are silly, dont see how they balance anything, they just stagnate as progression goes on.

what spell are we gonna use with UE's flametongue effect? supposedly it wont effect lavalash, and there has been no information stating flameshock is still in our PVE rotation.

the effect on windfury is laughable because we already attack fast, why more? its redundant, and the faster we attack, the less value the effect holds. atm it goes away in what...3 seconds tops? again its bleh

not to mention i dont get why UE is so PVE oriented, wouldve been better if it was more pvp oriented.

thats why i like rogues/DK's atm, all there new abilities seem to have obvious and even potent uses in pvp that addresses issues they had, or gives them something entirely new.

UE does neither

now in response to the people "so go play a rogue/DK", thats what im doing lol, sept i want a goblin rogue. sooo...ya

i still have the faintest hope for enhancement, but atm in order for that to happen, they need to axe the pleothora of boring dps talents in enhancement (way too many in comparison to other specs/classes), they need to give me my mana back and/or allow mana regeneration even when being kited (IE not tie it to melee attacks) and need to take searing totem out of our main dps rotation and give something else to buff lavalash that is more reliable and pvp wieldly.

if all that happens, ill play my enh shaman again.

[Jahoota]

http://demotywatory.pl/1755911/Kolejny-dowod-na-to-ze


Look at picture
Another prof how Americans are smart

You forgot the word 'the' before the noun in your first sentence, you didn't use any punctuation at the end of your sentences, you said 'Another' when you should have said 'More', and you misspelled the word proof.

The USA was also playing England, a team that was suppose to beat us. With that game, a tie could be considered a win because England was favored. Then again, you're stupid and even the simplest of concepts fly right over your head.

[nazrakin]

static buffs are silly, dont see how they balance anything, they just stagnate as progression goes on.

what spell are we gonna use with UE's flametongue effect? supposedly it wont effect lavalash, and there has been no information stating flameshock is still in our PVE rotation.

the effect on windfury is laughable because we already attack fast, why more? its redundant, and the faster we attack, the less value the effect holds. atm it goes away in what...3 seconds tops? again its bleh

not to mention i dont get why UE is so PVE oriented, wouldve been better if it was more pvp oriented.

thats why i like rogues/DK's atm, all there new abilities seem to have obvious and even potent uses in pvp that addresses issues they had, or gives them something entirely new.

UE does neither

now in response to the people "so go play a rogue/DK", thats what im doing lol, sept i want a goblin rogue. sooo...ya

i still have the faintest hope for enhancement, but atm in order for that to happen, they need to axe the pleothora of boring dps talents in enhancement (way too many in comparison to other specs/classes), they need to give me my mana back and/or allow mana regeneration even when being kited (IE not tie it to melee attacks) and need to take searing totem out of our main dps rotation and give something else to buff lavalash that is more reliable and pvp wieldly.

if all that happens, ill play my enh shaman again.

- Its because static buffs are usually easier to adjust than percentages.

- What makes you think FS won't be in the rotation? Its still way ahead of ES.

- Many of our abilities scale with haste, so why wouldn't you want to attack faster? And it doesn't matter that this goes away fast, its a 30% boost every 15seconds. By comparison, BL is 40sec every 5min, that gives it 13% uptime. Even assuming its just up for "3 secs" every 15secs, means it'd have around 20% uptime. So yes, its a pretty decent buff.

- FB-UE is probably the best effect there is for the spell. It gives us another button to push when at range that hits for a decent amount and applies a slow that stacks with FB and FrS.

- I probably agree with most of the problem you identify in the last comment. However, my point in responding to the other post was that scaling isn't a problem the class has to worry about right now. Our problems are much more mechnical.

[Pope]

static buffs are silly, dont see how they balance anything, they just stagnate as progression goes on.

Every class has static buffs. They ensure at least SOME damage when you have low AP or SP. That's how the game works. All spells still scale at least a tiny bit with AP or SP, even Windfury or Lacerate, even when it's not stated in the tooltip

what spell are we gonna use with UE's flametongue effect? supposedly it wont effect lavalash, and there has been no information stating flameshock is still in our PVE rotation.

If you don't want to use flameshock in your rotation, then don't do it. since haste will increase the number of ticks, the damage will still be higher then Earth shock. Why not using Flameshock after UE. Would still be a DPS increase.

the effect on windfury is laughable because we already attack fast, why more? its redundant, and the faster we attack, the less value the effect holds. atm it goes away in what...3 seconds tops? again its bleh

Explain your self, I don't get your point. I guess you don't seem to understand how Windfury works. Windfury uses your Weapon Speed (e.g. 2.6) to determine the amount of AP that gets added to the attack (go look up Attack power, normalized and non-normalized attacks on wowwiki - hint: windfury is a non-normalized attack) Then it adds a static amount of AP, to make windfury hit harder then auto-attacks. So, why do you fuzz about windfury so much? It is our signature spell, and it got buffed in the last build. It was not changed at all, just buffed by a big amount.

not to mention i dont get why UE is so PVE oriented, wouldve been better if it was more pvp oriented.

example for that? the UE for frostbrand is pvp-oriented, in case you didn't knew.

[...]pvp-stuff[...]

I can't comment on that very much, because I don't pvp much, but why don't you like the searing totem-debuff for pvp?
Lavalash hits like a truck in beta, even without the debuff. So if your target is dumb enough to let the debuff stack on it, you're gonna destroy him.

EDIT
ah well, nazrakin was faster, but at least I splitted the quote to make it look nice :O

[Orumis]

Do Shamans ever stop complaining?