A theory including Arthas, Sylvanas, and the leadership of the Forsaken

[Desimar]

I think the Forsaken would want to kill Arthas, personally.

I don't think Sylvanas would raise him and just let him do his thing.

Arthas that is raised would be the uncorrupted form of Arthas, so who knows.

Arthas is a very important lore character - Particularly because we never get to see him normally in WoW. Only when hes corrupted in Stratholme.

I believe Sylvanas would raise Arthas to do the ultimate form of payback for raising Sylvanas as an Undead.

---------- Post added 2010-09-19 at 04:32 PM ----------

not to step on your fan fiction parade or anything but I see one of these threads every other day, please stop making them or go join an RP server. Not trying to be mean but everything will sort itself out as far as horde leadership goes if you don't like how it is in game then choose a new race or go rp about it.

Once more, thanks for the free bump

[LordRayken]

not to step on your fan fiction parade or anything but I see one of these threads every other day, please stop making them or go join an RP server. Not trying to be mean but everything will sort itself out as far as horde leadership goes if you don't like how it is in game then choose a new race or go rp about it.

Go join a roleplay server?

This has nothing to do with roleplaying.

[Aisriyth]

I believe Sylvanas would raise Arthas to do the ultimate form of payback for raising Sylvanas as an Undead.

I rather see Terenas get raised somehow. That could be interesting.

[Renotarshil]

Plus I really enjoy Slyvanas as a character. It would suck to see such an awesome character get treated so fouly.

[SuperShaggy]

I rather see Terenas get raised somehow. That could be interesting.

This I would see as more likely. Maybe Sylvanas raises him in attempt to get someone with history of Gilneas and their lands, but then again that scenario has already played out.

[Aisriyth]

This I would see as more likely. Maybe Sylvanas raises him in attempt to get someone with history of Gilneas and their lands, but then again that scenario has already played out.

IIRC The forsaken still have some semblance of loyalty to Terenas so would be interesting if now that his soul is free of Frostmourne if he could be raised.

[Reliable]

I honestly love this idea, Arthas was my favorite lore character and watching him die in Wrath was really just not worth the 7 year wait.

[LordRayken]

Stopped at undead Paladins.

not to step on your fan fiction parade or anything but I see one of these threads every other day, please stop making them or go join an RP server. Not trying to be mean but everything will sort itself out as far as horde leadership goes if you don't like how it is in game then choose a new race or go rp about it.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Commander_Springvale
Would like a word with you guys.

[Visen]

Interesting idea but I don't see it happening. Arthas has been played out and had his time in the spotlight. If anyone were to take over leadership of the Forsaken, should Blizzard choose to go that route, I feel it would most likely be Lillian Voss.

[Cinderwild]

I think its a cool idea, but I did want to point something out.


As far as I know, Arthas was not a powerful Paladin. I read the book about him and he never gave me the vibe of having a strong grip of his powers or even a strong conviction in the teachings of the Holy Light (which is how they get their power, to my understanding).



Also as pointed out, I just don't think Arthas is coming back.


It is a cool idea though.

[Aisriyth]

Interesting idea but I don't see it happening. Arthas has been played out and had his time in the spotlight. If anyone were to take over leadership of the Forsaken, should Blizzard choose to go that route, I feel it would most likely be Lillian Voss.

Ugh, I rather see rinse and repeat Arthas then some holy crap shadow super saiyan mary sue of doom. Actually, I'd LOVE to see Terenas get raised.

Edit: Note most of my statements are hypothetical if anything like this came about. I love Sylvanas as a character so i don't actually want to see her replaced at all unless Blizzard does something epic.

[KageZetsumei]

This is all very interesting and would make for good events, but I'm just not convinced Sylvanas would raise Arthas. I think she would see him as a possible threat to her rule from the very start and protecting her hold over the Foresaken would win out over one more poke at Arthas. It seems like once she learned Arthas was dead, she immediately moved on and forgot about him. I'm using her reaction as shown to us in "Sylvanas' Vengeance" as the basis for that argument:

Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: So, it is done.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: I had not dared to trust my senses - too many times has the Lich King made me to be a fool.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Finally, he has been made to pay for the atrocities he imposed upon my people.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: May Azeroth never fail to remember the terrible price we paid for our weakness... for our pride.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: But what now, hero? What of those freed from his grasp, but still shackled to their mortal coils?
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Leave me.
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: I have much to ponder.

Seems like she's done with him to me. However, still a very cool idea.

[Giga]

fantastic idea and easily plausible within the game
only problem is that alot of the playerbase whore aren't mega lore enthusiasts probably don't understand the difference between arthas the lich king and arthas the paladin, remember, throughout wotlk the only blatant reference (within the game) to ner'zul was the howling fjord quest in which you encounter the lich king and he says that he was once a shaman.
not to mention in the arthas book it is speculated that arthas banished (imprisoned?) n'z from his mind and is running on his own motives.
I can only imagine what his personality would be like after being resurrected, wether or not he'd be able to live with himselve after his "body's" prior sins. Maybe he can still hear whispers from the frozen throne even in unundeath (he also doesn't have a heart btw) and feels the need to remove bolvar and reclaim his place on the throne.

hopefully what you've said can come true in full fruitian, i think sylvanas has become too brutal and sly for her own good.

P.S also dont get me started on why sylvanas would possibly want to resurrect her most hated enemy

[Aisriyth]

fantastic idea and easily plausible within the game
only problem is that alot of the playerbase whore aren't mega lore enthusiasts probably don't understand the difference between arthas the lich king and arthas the death knight, remember, throughout wotlk the only blatant reference (within the game) to ner'zul was the howling fjord quest in which you encounter the lich king and he says that he was once a shaman.
not to mention in the arthas book it is speculated that arthas banished (imprisoned?) n'z from his mind and is running on his own motives.
I can only imagine what his personality would be like after being resurrected, wether or not he'd be able to live with himselve after his "body's" prior sins. Maybe he can still hear whispers from the frozen throne even in unundeath (he also doesn't have a heart btw) and feels the need to remove bolvar and reclaim his place on the throne.

hopefully what you've said can come true in full fruitian, i think sylvanas has become too brutal and sly for her own good.

P.S also dont get me started on why sylvanas would possibly want to resurrect her most hated enemy

Its this which is why i speculate there is/was a third entity involved that maybe was part of Frostmourne instead of the Helm of Domination.

[Boley]

Hello. I realize that:
1) Theories about Sylvanas and future leadership and undead paladins have been done to death.
2) Undead feel pain when using the light.
3) Arthas was 1/2 of the lich king. Arthas' body was used, but ner'zul's mind and motives were controlling this body. If you don't remember, Ner'zul needed a person to act as his body as he was trapped in the Frozen Throne. So he sent the Dreadlord Mal'ganis to antagonize Arthas. Driven to protect his people, he chased Mal'ganis to Northrend. When he got there, he realized that He most likely could not defeat Mal'ganis. He needed an advantage to beat Mal'ganis and save his people, that advantage was Frostmourne. When he took the sword, his power became massive, but he started hearing whispers from Ner'zul. Much like how Yogg-Saron corrupted the Keepers of Ulduar, Ner'zul corrupted Arthas.
4)Arthas' burial ground has not been announced or mentioned.

Also, before I begin, I would like to state this is not a plea for undead paladins. It involves the undead being paladins to create a larger story.

Ok, We have all heard that Sylvanas has been raising new Forsaken using the Val'kyr so the Forsaken don't die out. So if Arthas was buried in Lorderon (Or any other place for that matter. Even if Arthas' body was left atop the frozen throne to rot, Sylvanas could go retrieve it.)Sylvanas could have one of her Val'kyr raise Arthas. Now realize, if Arthas were to be raised, he would be raise as Arthas the paladin, not Arthas after he became the Lich King. He would be still be driven to protect his people just as he was prior to taking Frostmourne. The twist at this point is that his people are now the Forsaken.

It is reasonable to beleive that a Paladin of immense power such as Arthas would retain his powers in death much like Sir Zeliek did. (Blizzard has already stated that a paladin does not need to be in an order or a member of a certain race to use the light, all that a paladin has to do is legitimately believe he is doing good.) If Arthas was raised to serve Sylvanas, he would notice that she is making similar mistakes as he made. Both went to extreme lengths to help there people. He would most likely speak out and try to warn Sylvanas.

Obviously, Sylvanas would completely disregard Arthas and continue to raise the dead. Arthas would at that point break away and form a group of Forsaken Paladins who would accept help from anyone who opposed Sylvanas, including the Alliance, and members of the Horde who don't think what Sylvanas is doing is right. The people who became Forsaken Paladins would be like Lilian Voss in that they do not accept Undeath and the way that the Undead are turning. Below is Jesse Cox doing the first part of the Lilian Voss quest chain.



Eventually, the group of Forsaken Paladins headed by Arthas would have received enough help from various sources that they feel they are able to take down Sylvanas. in a one time world event, Arthas will lead a siege on the Undercity. He will force Sylvanas along with the remaining Val'kyr and those who support her to flee the Undercity, and take up residence in Tirisfall Grove. Arthas will become the New leader of the Forsaken, Players can then create Forsaken Paladins, and Arthas pledges not to raise any new Forsaken in any way, shape, or form or use the plague.

Sylvanas can then become a raid boss in a raid in a later patch or even expansion. In Tirisfall Grove she would most likely create some form army with the few Val'kyr left under her control as she prepared to retake the Undercity.

Keep in mind, these events would take place over a long period of time.

Also, these events would cause something that really doesn't happen very much in WoW, advancement. Not only for the Forsaken, but also for the two races closely related to the Forsaken, being the Blood Elves and Worgen. They could both expand if the undead diminished (Especially Worgen because of not using the plague.)

The Forsaken would not die out because:
1) During the time Arthas was trying to build up his group of Forsaken Paladins, Sylvanas would have been raising new Forsaken continuously.
2) When Sylvanas is in Tirisfall Grove, as long as there are corpses, Sylvanas will have the Val'kyr raise them. Some of the raised corpses may not be to keen on trying to kill hundreds of innocents in the undercity and will try to escape.

Koitra and Thassarian's story could be involved in some dimension of the greater story, Koitra could be freed during the siege of the Undercity and Thassarian could be a member of Arthas' group. After the Siege, they would both return to their respective capital cities and sit there until they are needed in a story again.

I was brainstorming ideas for rewards and here is what I think could work: Title "Name Bane of the Banshee Queen", Undead bat flying mount, Undead bat companion pet, moderate gear comparable to the level of gear available from the Argent Tournament purchasable with champions seals (ie http://www.wowwiki.com/Sen'jin_Beakblade_Longrifle ) Or a skeletal warhorse using the same model as : http://www.wowwiki.com/Ochre_Skeletal_Warhorse or a recolor of it.

Please post your ideas/critique and tell me if I overlooked anything. thanks for reading.

Quite frankly that is pure amazingness! It could add up lore-wise because arthas never did really die, the helm and frostmourne kept him alive after he tossed out his heart. Technically it could happen but I only see 1 flaw in it, The same flaw I see in cata lore.

The lich king is still a raid, ICC will always be a raid unless blizz makes up something about northrend or such, but look at the new quests in silverpine: The banshee queen says that arthas is dead, the lich king is killed, she is avenged etc. But as soon as you hit 68 and go to northrend....BOOM LICH KING AHH!!! BAD!! RUN!!! KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!

I see flaws there.....
But besides that large amounts of QQ would come from many people, mainly the alliance because once again the horde is either taking its major lore chars. IE blightcaller.
Or that the horde is getting way more cooler stuff then the alliance like how the horde are currently gaining all kinds of land in Cata besides SOS which people claim ally's are getting, but at the end of the chain there we don't even kill all the horde its still a neutral zone ><


But still good idea I like it! It would be fun killing him for a bear!

[Desimar]

Plus I really enjoy Slyvanas as a character. It would suck to see such an awesome character get treated so fouly.

I'm amazed at how whenever they make a female character's boobs bigger, people like the character more.


Vanilla Model: "Yeah Sylvanas is ok I guess"

TBC Model: "Sylvanas is a great character!"

WotLK Model: "Sylvanas is the best character ever developed in WoW! She is the perfect leader and no one will ever match her!"

What's her cata model going to look like?

[Sprouts]

A person grows old, then dies. If he could be brought back would he still be old? Yes. This has been shown as the ages of Forsaken seem to be somewhat retained.. although irrelevant after death.

Now a person goes crazy, then dies. If he could be brought back would he still be crazy? Yes. The insanity/attitude of Arthas was a malady of the mind. His mind was in part his even as he put Ner'zhuls crown upon his head. Despite Ner'Zhul's release on Arthas, Arthas is still a deathknight. His powers over the light have never been shown post patricide. There is no reason to belive he still has those powers. Other paladins who did not choose their path still cannot use it. Sir Zeliek is an anomoly. Arthas would not be wholely good. He would likely re-kill himself actually.


Also a being of Arthas' power would require much more than a few Valkyr to rez. Sylvanas is in lore quite weak be comparison. It is doubtful that Kel'thuzad could have been rezzed by Valkyr as it took the Sunwell to bring him back.

Also as someone said before.. WHO would accept Arthas as their leader? No race would. Not even the forsaken, especially not the forsaken. Even before officially being corrupted Arthas was a hot headed, pompus embodiment of the failure engrained into "the ends justify the means".

I respect the though put into this, but the fundimental flaw in it is in overestimating Arthas' good character. Ner'zhul had many to choose from, and he chose Arthas for a reason. Arthas was already halfway to being the Evil dictator seen today.

[Demonickranz]

Its a great idea but I could see several members of the horde getting a bit pissed about this. The blood elves would definitely not accept him since he ravaged their land and the forsaken wont just be like "Oh its cool bro, thanks for rebirth as a monstrous undead."

[Cinderwild]

I'm amazed at how whenever they make a female character's boobs bigger, people like the character more.


Vanilla Model: "Yeah Sylvanas is ok I guess"

TBC Model: "Sylvanas is a great character!"

WotLK Model: "Sylvanas is the best character ever developed in WoW! She is the perfect leader and no one will ever match her!"

What's her cata model going to look like?

I think you're missing the point: The newest model looks way cooler and personifies her a lot more in general. Original model is literally a Night Elf. I think you're overly focused on one thing, searching for a bias.

[Desimar]

fantastic idea and easily plausible within the game
only problem is that alot of the playerbase whore aren't mega lore enthusiasts probably don't understand the difference between arthas the lich king and arthas the paladin, remember, throughout wotlk the only blatant reference (within the game) to ner'zul was the howling fjord quest in which you encounter the lich king and he says that he was once a shaman.
not to mention in the arthas book it is speculated that arthas banished (imprisoned?) n'z from his mind and is running on his own motives.
I can only imagine what his personality would be like after being resurrected, wether or not he'd be able to live with himselve after his "body's" prior sins. Maybe he can still hear whispers from the frozen throne even in unundeath (he also doesn't have a heart btw) and feels the need to remove bolvar and reclaim his place on the throne.

That's why I posted this on MMO champ forums. IMO it has more more people who understand the lore than the official WoW forums. Also if anyone wants to copy/paste this to cata forums go for it.