Why do people forget heroics were hard back in the day?

[Sylreick]

H:Halls of Lightning : 12/4/08
first heroic completed after hitting 80 (12/1/08), and having done it with sub 30k HP is was moderately difficult. we took 5 attempts to kill loken. WotLK heroic were difficult at gear level, but being 3 teirs past them, i can see why people say theyre faceroll. these dungeons were designed to be done in blues and greens, not t10 heroic. tanks had on average 25k HP, healers had less than 20k mana, 25 man raid dps was 3k or less, so in a 5 man 2k was good, so yeah, sometimes it was a challenge.
(dont believe it, armory Rothulivic, only one on US servers)

Man I remember doing the wrath heroics when 2.1k dps was looked upon nicely, and tanks having a decent 21k hp. They were quite entertaining. Pre-Uld though, once uld came out and people getting geared heroics started picking up speed and people haven't cared to look back.

[Skollvaldr]

Oh god people actually think wotlk heroics were hard at first? hahaha oh my. either your groups were awful or you just have no idea what hard content is.

they were, you just don't remember.

loken was a nightmare in blues.

[Agallochh]

On my priest (Fleshgrind, Destromath-US)

Heroic: Halls of Lightning
12-08-08

Heroic: The Nexus
11-30-08

I definitely remember. I was wearing T6 and Hyjal/BT/Sunwell gear. But honestly, it wasn't really challenging then. Sure, there was less room for failure and absolutely no avoiding mechanics, but honestly there were only one or two times we wiped on Brann's Event and Loken. And once i was 4/5 t7.5 and in 213 pieces all around the board the heroics begun to be facerolls.

[Redcrow]

"You have faced many challenges...pity they were all in vain" still haunts my nightmares. Also the event before the last boss in mechinar was a bitch before you outgeared it anyone who argues is just flexing thier epeen.

[archangel1701]

Yes, heroics in TBC were harder than in WotLK... first off, there was more progression in TBC. You had to do regular runs to get the gear to do heroics. Just quest rewards and your tank will practically be one-shot. They also required CC for a huge part of the expansion. Screw up the CC, you wipe.

More importantly, though... raids were NOT PUGGABLE. With the exception of Kara, most raids weren't pugged until towards the very end of the expansion.

In WotLK, ICC is regularly pugged for 6-8 bosses, and pugs have cleared the first wing almost since it was released. That's a LOT of end-game gear going to people who didn't have it in TBC. You don't have to move out of Loken's blast wave when you're in ICC gear. You can kill bosses before the healer comes even close to running out of mana.

The fact that they're mind-numbingly easy now doesn't relate to how they were at the start of the expansion. No, even at the beginning of WotLK, none of them were as hard as TBC heroics were... but they were a LOT more difficult than they are now, with anyone able to get T10 gear.

[Sanisbad]

People forget, cause admitting that heroics were hard at the beginning of WOTLK, doesn't help their constant bitching about the badge system now. There is nothing wrong with the way heroics are in WOTLK. The issue lies in the badge system, which started off good, then quickly got carried away with all the different tiers of badges. Item level inflation contributes too I suppose.

Since we're here, stopping comparing WOTLK heroics, to BC heroics. We get it, and no one is saying otherwise, BC heroics were often times like mashing your dick/boob in a doorway. The wrong group, and the wrong gear meant you were going to be ripping out teeth with no novacaine. None of this comparing bullshit, changes the fact that before everything was stupid overgeared WOTLK heroics were actually time consuming, and required effort and some skill.

I don't care who you are, if you're saying that you could sit in Loken's Lightning Nova, in ilvl200/213 gear without almost certain death(short of popping some serious cd's and maybe offhealing yourself) you are full of shit. Same thing goes for HoS, and OK, and Pound in AN for that matter.

[Gilian]

You never had to move out of Loken's nova, people were healing through it with ease in 3.0. The HoS even was never hard, and if your dps were scrambling it would have to be becuase the tank was dead, get out of the giant laser once every 20 seconds does not make an event hard. The tank never had to move from pound, it never at any point one shotted a tank and even at that gear you had more than enough mana income to heal him back up. People ignored Kele's tomb all the time, especially on healers and just continued to nuke the boss, all of this remains true in 3.0. WOTLK heroics were NEVER hard, and people are complaining now because paladins are doing heroics by themselves and dps are tanking ICC heroics, and how fast the instance is done determines how many rooms you can pull at once. I don't see how in any way you could think it's not the base design of the instance. The mobs hit for 2k on tanks who back then had over 30k, the boss damage is non-existant, no mobs do anything of ANY particular danger, ANY boss mechanic can be healed through. We WERE farming it off the back, in pugs who were steamrolling it.

Yup. I healed HoS in level 70 BT gear and friend tanking in level 70 BT gear. The first time you maybe wipe because of no one knowing what is going to happen and randoms playing bad and that was it. Nothing was really hard. Imagine that you have ilvl 200 gear instead of level 70 gear. That's a huge difference.

We had to sometimes run out of lokens AoE because we had a bad healer. But at least people learned from it back then. If you are new to the game now you can just afk so why would any new player learn something new if he/she is killing everything so easily.

But no, heroics were never hard in wotlk. It's a real step back for people who did TBC heroics.

And making players go back to ilvl 200 dungeons with ilvl 264/277 gear makes it all worse. And resetting gear every time content is released so you can start all over again with farming heroic dungeons, yeah real smart idea. All the people who overgear it are sick of them and all the people that don't don't learn anything from them. Then they join pugs where they have to play with people who actually learned before joining that pug. That worked out great didn't it? Gearscore ftw.

[smoomin]

they were, you just don't remember.

loken was a nightmare in blues.

Man , i love it when people read the first page then post.

[Sesshou]

where 3k+ dps was a big deal, unless you were a pre volley nerf hunter

I'm sorry you just invalidated your whole argument with that load of bull. 3k dps was a big deal BACK IN SUNWELL. My rogue broke 3k all the time as I leveled from 70-80 (and due to unimaginably bad drops, I didn't even have glaives). And for those that don't have rogues, FoK is an 80 ability so I wasn't breaking 3k by FoK spamming.

Sure 3k may have been hard for random pug scrubs, but for those who were use to optimizing their stuff and knew the proper rotations, 3k was a joke without even a single piece of WotLK gear.

Btw, before anyone points it out, yeah the rating conversion rate screws your crit/hit/exp but the addition of glyphs and new ranks still puts you ahead at 80 versus pre 3.0 70 in most cases.

Also the person saying you couldnt ignore the frost tomb on the first UK boss... maybe your server is bad but on mine plenty of people had their heroic drakes before they were fully decked out in naxx epics. Not breaking that tomb is an ach for the drake iirc.

30khp probably isn't that unrealistic either for a tank. BC tanks could easily get 22k, and stam values on WotLK gear is far higher.

[Gilian]

People forget, cause admitting that heroics were hard at the beginning of WOTLK, doesn't help their constant bitching about the badge system now. There is nothing wrong with the way heroics are in WOTLK. The issue lies in the badge system, which started off good, then quickly got carried away with all the different tiers of badges. Item level inflation contributes too I suppose.

Since we're here, stopping comparing WOTLK heroics, to BC heroics. We get it, and no one is saying otherwise, BC heroics were often times like mashing your dick/boob in a doorway. The wrong group, and the wrong gear meant you were going to be ripping out teeth with no novacaine. None of this comparing bullshit, changes the fact that before everything was stupid overgeared WOTLK heroics were actually time consuming, and required effort and some skill.

I don't care who you are, if you're saying that you could sit in Loken's Lightning Nova, in ilvl200/213 gear without almost certain death(short of popping some serious cd's and maybe offhealing yourself) you are full of shit. Same thing goes for HoS, and OK, and Pound in AN for that matter.

Because people shouldn't pop CD's or offheal?

[isntyourname123]

You never had to move out of Loken's nova, people were healing through it with ease in 3.0. The HoS even was never hard, and if your dps were scrambling it would have to be becuase the tank was dead, get out of the giant laser once every 20 seconds does not make an event hard. The tank never had to move from pound, it never at any point one shotted a tank and even at that gear you had more than enough mana income to heal him back up. People ignored Kele's tomb all the time, especially on healers and just continued to nuke the boss, all of this remains true in 3.0. WOTLK heroics were NEVER hard, and people are complaining now because paladins are doing heroics by themselves and dps are tanking ICC heroics, and how fast the instance is done determines how many rooms you can pull at once. I don't see how in any way you could think it's not the base design of the instance. The mobs hit for 2k on tanks who back then had over 30k, the boss damage is non-existant, no mobs do anything of ANY particular danger, ANY boss mechanic can be healed through. We WERE farming it off the back, in pugs who were steamrolling it.

I played back when people first started hitting 80.
Loken DID 1shot people.
Anub DID 1shot tanks with pound.
You probably wouldn't know this but. The first few trash pulls in H UK the mobs can stun and disarm the tank. You had to be very careful pulling them with ilvl 187/200 blues. (Tho now you can still die if you pull all the mobs up to the fire wall. Tryed this a few weeks ago. People didn't expect the tank to die! LOL)
Tanks in Naxx 10 gear had around 30k hp. My pally being 1 of them.
Anybody remember pre-nerf EK? He would enrage and start 1 shotting people before he died.
The Trex boss(for got his name atm) DID 1shot tanks in fear.
I did these heroics back when dps was wat... 1600dps? Tanks had like 24k hp. Healers COULD run out of mana.
That said...hard as TBC? No. But not faceroll you remember.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-a...elyne&gn=JUICE

[Deleted]

I'm sorry but you guys are either mass trolling or just full of shiet

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-ac...sty&gn=Entropy

WotLK release date: 13.11.2008
Level 80: 17.11.2008
EVERY SINGLE HC CLEAR(and most achievments): 23.11.2008 in no HC was even close to 1-shotting tanks or healers running out of mana as others stated.

If you are under the impression that WotLK HC were even remotely hard than let me remind you something, Naxxarams, Ulduar, ToC and half of ICC are perfectly doable in blues if you know wtf you are doing.
Now go back to your troll caves and learn to play.

[Sanisbad]

Because people shouldn't pop CD's or offheal?

Of course you should pop survival cooldowns, and offheal if you need to. Now people just blatant stand in the Nova and 1. Expect not to die and 2. Expect to be picked back up quickly by the healer. That wasn't the case when WOTLK first came out.

I honestly, don't even get what you're trying to say here.

[Isidar]

You never had to move out of Loken's nova, people were healing through it with ease in 3.0. The HoS even was never hard, and if your dps were scrambling it would have to be becuase the tank was dead, get out of the giant laser once every 20 seconds does not make an event hard. The tank never had to move from pound, it never at any point one shotted a tank and even at that gear you had more than enough mana income to heal him back up. People ignored Kele's tomb all the time, especially on healers and just continued to nuke the boss, all of this remains true in 3.0. WOTLK heroics were NEVER hard, and people are complaining now because paladins are doing heroics by themselves and dps are tanking ICC heroics, and how fast the instance is done determines how many rooms you can pull at once. I don't see how in any way you could think it's not the base design of the instance. The mobs hit for 2k on tanks who back then had over 30k, the boss damage is non-existant, no mobs do anything of ANY particular danger, ANY boss mechanic can be healed through. We WERE farming it off the back, in pugs who were steamrolling it.

I didn't finish reading what you had to say because after your first sentence I could tell you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Deleted]

Of course you should pop survival cooldowns, and offheal if you need to. Now people just blatant stand in the Nova and 1. Expect not to die and 2. Expect to be picked back up quickly by the healer. That wasn't the case when WOTLK first came out.

I honestly, don't even get what you're trying to say here.

Funny enough when I did Loken 3 days after I dinged (21.11.2008) we did it by standing in the nova and with a disc priest healer and had no problem.

[Sesshou]

Man I remember doing the wrath heroics when 2.1k dps was looked upon nicely, and tanks having a decent 21k hp. They were quite entertaining. Pre-Uld though, once uld came out and people getting geared heroics started picking up speed and people haven't cared to look back.

You did wrath heroics back in BC? When was 2.1kdps ever looked upon nicely for an 80? I can see 2.1kdps as decent for 70-75 maybe if you had no BC gear, but any 80 with quest blues and greens should be doing more than that. 21khp tanks? You mean less hp than BC tanks had, even with WotLK gear that has far far more stam per piece?

Edit: Anyway my point is, sure if you were only pulling BT level dps and running with 21khp tanks, they might have been hard. 2.1kdps and 21khp are both horrible for 80 though, so basically you are way undergeared/underperforming and thought it was hard.

[Roose]

Oh god people actually think wotlk heroics were hard at first? hahaha oh my. either your groups were awful or you just have no idea what hard content is.

Exactly.

I was curious about how easily I actually finished them, so I checked my achievements.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-a...ator&gn=Mirage

11/25/08 - hit 80. Hooray! I guess I need to start gearing for Naxx...

11/25/08 - finished 3 heroics before heading to raid Naxx(not D capped)and cleared spider wing.

11/26/08 - Figured out heroics were pointless. Did OS and Plague wing.

11/30/08 - Finished all wings of Naxx

12/9/08 - Cleared all of Naxx 10

Why do heroics when you can go straight to raiding? Of course it was only Naxx 10, but at that time most ppl I knew were still leveling.

Heroics were a joke from literally day one, as was Naxx(25 only harder b/c of waiting for ppl to hit 80)

However, I did not get Champ of Frozen until months later b/c I just refused to even go to Occ b/c I hated it so much on normal. It was more difficult than all others, but I just hated the design.

So right there you have proof that LK was a joke from day one. My gear still sucks relative to everyone else and I am still way over-gearing them. This coming from a someone who plays in a casual guild. The bigger raid guilds were already trying OS with drakes up their 2nd week of being 80.

[zealous]

The mobs hit for 2k on tanks who back then had over 30k, the boss damage is non-existant, no mobs do anything of ANY particular danger, ANY boss mechanic can be healed through.

Oh this is just precious lol.




This is my first Sapph kill screen. I am almost full 200/213. Maybe have one-two blue items, maybe none. Raid buffed. If you can't see it my max health is - 32604. And my healthstone is used because of how vulnerable non-dk tanks used to be to spell damage at the start of WotLK.

Edit - cut the image cause my 1680-1050 res stretched the forum page, so u can't see my char or my hotbars now.
Am prepared to send the full screen to any unbelievers :P

And many things were threatening at start of the xpac in blues. Even Ingvar's smash/dark smash was on heroic. You can still kill a caster dps with around 4k gs with Anub's pound in Azjol Nerub if u turn him the right way :P

I'm not saying they were actually very difficult or something, they were definitely easier than TBC. But you COULD die. If you were an undergeared tank, you could easily die. If your healer was crappy/undergeared, anyone in your group could die. And to the people saying starter groups (non-raid geared) could stand in lightning nova on Loken - that's blatant lie. I don't think I farmed hcs much for tokens during naxx->uld but before entering raiding I did make a wishlist using Atlasloot and i got everything in it before getting further than spider/plague quarter.

Blame stat inflation due to hardmodes.

[Isidar]

I'm sorry but you guys are either mass trolling or just full of shiet

WotLK release date: 13.11.2008
Level 80: 17.11.2008
EVERY SINGLE HC CLEAR(and most achievments): 23.11.2008 in no HC was even close to 1-shotting tanks or healers running out of mana as others stated.

If you are under the impression that WotLK HC were even remotely hard than let me remind you something, Naxxarams, Ulduar, ToC and half of ICC are perfectly doable in blues if you know wtf you are doing.
Now go back to your troll caves and learn to play.

Another person that doesn't know what they're talking about. You must suck terribly and get carried. I'll buy you some legs in the near future.

[Mykk]

There is so much QQ of recent, particularly with the rumors flying about that the Cataclysm dungeons are receiving some nerfs, and with it comes the constant accusing finger pointing to the ease of WOTLK heroic dungeons. Does no one remember when they actually used to be hard?
We are talking starting to gear in, and with gear from naxx, you and your buds go into old temple, and the tank gets one shotted cause you didn't interrupt the 2 casters simultaneously in the same trash pack, or shackle.
You actually had to move out of Loken's lightning nova because it would one shot the entire party (HoL was a pug killer for a solid half a year)
Where HoS's council had your last dps running around frantically trying to stay alive for those last 15 seconds to clear the event
Where the tank actually had to dodge Anub's pound, where people had to actually dps each other out of Keleseth's frost tomb (or whoever)

Long story short, what were once mechanics that would keep the low level to mediocre player entertained and challenged, have changed to "Heal through it, burn it down before X Y and Z, wtf is a cc?". In my eyes, this isn't an issue with how the heroics were designed, but rather an issue with how Blizz has chosen to grant more incentive to the casual player via an IV drip of purplez. Heroic dungeons can't keep that "heroicy" fun factor when you release what is essentially 6 or 7 tiers of gear in an expansion, without being completely impossible to accomplish for entry level 80s. Granted, the pulls could use more crowd control stress and less AoE, but to just gloss over what was once a fun challenge like we were farming it right off the bat is a little ignorant.

Firstly if u have to interrupt one mob in one freaking heroic instance doesnt make heroics harder.
and then what goes lokens lightning nova doesnt make trash packs harder. Most of trash packs were aoe fest with 70lvl tier 6 gear. If u have to interrupt one mob it doesnt make pack harder.

Wotlk heroics were roflmoa aoefest nothing else.

If u look back in tbc if u didnt cc in hellfire heroics ur tank most likely wiped even if he had good kara gear. Also if u did pre nerf durnholde where u didnt cc specific mobs u were over run by mobs who came from outposts.

Cata instances isnt that hard just sheep / interrupt few mobs and its easy so stop complaining. If bad players dont want to do this they shouldnt even be playing. Most of beta players who didnt do pre nerf tbc heroics or vanilla instances dont know what is cc or how to use.

Example i was in deepholme and few guys cc'd mobs and then tank charged in and shockwaved cc'd mobs gg and wipe

sorry for my bad english