How much of End-Game content should be catered towards PuGs?

[mik32120]

What's so wrong about PuGing? Where's the difference in the players? Is someone a noob, just because he's not in a guild / raiding with them? I don't think so...
Okay, guild groups are more prepared, they know each other and their skills, but I don't think that's so important for a successful raid.
I personally PuG a lot. I can't raid with a guild with concrete raid times, because my real life doesn't allow it.
Most PuGs are quite successful (10/12 with some hardmodes, sometimes even Lich King). Okay, some aren't, but that can also happen with a guild group.
I'd like, if there were some PuGable raids in Cataclysm. They don't have to be super easy, I really don't have problems wiping hours on one boss, just to learn his abilities and how to react properly.

What I want to say, is that PuGing doesn't make you a noob. You can (and should!) have skill and good knowledge of your class and its abilities, independent of raiding with a guild group or not.
Cataclysm raids should be perfectly clearable for skilled PuGs as well as for guild groups, but not be too easy and boring (like ICC nowadays).

[Skidi]

none. when pug-ing wasn't an option, people focused more on creating and joining guilds. not doing first 4 bosses in icc over and over again.

[Gilian]

I agree.

But I think you can't just say pugs are bad and guilds are good. There are guilds that are worse than some pugs. But I understand what you mean.

The difference between a PuG and a guild is that a guild is prepared more. It's a group of players who played together for a long time so they are used to eachothers playstyles. I think that does make your group a lot stronger.
And pugs are all random people who never played together (well maybe some have). You don't know how someone is going to play. Is that other healer going to heal the way you expect or not? It's a big difference.
Guild raids will also stick together. Those people have the same goals and stick to the guildrules. They can wipe for 50 times and still stay together and figure out what to do.
Pugs don't do that. Not everyone has the same goals. They don't care to abandone the others (in some cases they do) since there are no rules and you don't know them. You have people who need tons of gear that cleared 12/12 of ICC and in the same group you have people that only need emblems and maybe 1 or 2 pieces of gear and are just there because they are bored, they cleared 12/12 ICC. Do you think that he/she will stay after 4 wipes on a boss that is super easy for him/her? Why would he/she? No need to help them out because they won't help you, like in a guild you help eachother.

So no, not everthing should be pugable. Especially end game raids/hardmodes. Without 30% buff this wouldn't have happened in ICC by the way.

[Tuvok]

Normal 5: Obviously all should be puggable, not a walkover though, put a little bit of training in there.
Heroic 5: Needs to be training for players, this is a crucial part of progression where the opportunity for blizzard to make it a training ground is great, there needs to be some challenging encounters and trash packs here to prepare people for raiding.

Normal 10: A well lead group of raiders from different guilds should be able to take down the majority of bosses, but for the average pug only about 25% of it should be doable. Casual guilds should still be able to clear it given enough time. PuGs are able to take down 50-75% after the next tier has been released, and 100% cleared when the next tier after that comes.
Normal 25: Same as above, though pugging will be more difficult due to logistics.

Heroic 10: Not even close to puggable, a challenge for even the top 20% of raiding guilds in the world.
Heroic 25: Same as Heroic 10.

That's my ideal PvE model.

[Deleted]

What's so wrong about PuGing? Where's the difference in the players? Is someone a noob, just because he's not in a guild / raiding with them? I don't think so...
Okay, guild groups are more prepared, they know each other and their skills, but I don't think that's so important for a successful raid.
I personally PuG a lot. I can't raid with a guild with concrete raid times, because my real life doesn't allow it.
Most PuGs are quite successful (10/12 with some hardmodes, sometimes even Lich King). Okay, some aren't, but that can also happen with a guild group.
I'd like, if there were some PuGable raids in Cataclysm. They don't have to be super easy, I really don't have problems wiping hours on one boss, just to learn his abilities and how to react properly.

What I want to say, is that PuGing doesn't make you a noob. You can (and should!) have skill and good knowledge of your class and its abilities, independent of raiding with a guild group or not.
Cataclysm raids should be perfectly clearable for skilled PuGs as well as for guild groups, but not be too easy and boring (like ICC nowadays).

Your right of course that pugging alone doesn't make you a bad player. There are also guilds that are worse than many Pugs and there are also Pugs that do exceptionally well. However, I think there are a few thing one can generalize about both forms of raiding.

Pick-up-group (formed just prior to the actual raid, maybe as little as 30 minutes in advance):
-Have players of very mixed skill-levels and back-grounds.
-Frequently have people with very little raid-experience and no preparation.
-Player selection is done superficially, mostly by looking at the class/specc and GearScore.
-generally lack the same dedication compared to guilds. People tend to start leaving after a few wipes.
-The overall performance level of the group as a whole is generally lower compared to a guild raid.
-Loot is rolled on with no further consideration about optimal use etc.
-VOIP is mostly used.
-Individuals can't be held responsible for their actions. There are no real repercussions for anti-social or destructive behavior.

In comparison Guild Raids generally have:
-Have players of comparable skill-levels and similar ambitions although there are always certain variations.
-Prepare themselves for their raid-encounters and often have a long history of raiding experience.
-Player selection is done over a trial period of days/weeks. Applicants must make an effort and show initiative and skill to get accepted.
-Dedication varies from guild to guild but generally no one leaves prematurely without a good excuse. People will return to try again the next day.
-The overall performance level of the raid is mostly higher compared to typical PuGs.
-Loot is mostly distributed via some kind of DKP system that rewards regular players.
-VOIP is always used with very few exceptions.
-Individuals can be held responsible for their actions. There are repercussions for anti-social or destructive behavior.

Then there are also PuGs that operate somewhere in between a guild and a classic PuGs. These are often organized by experienced raid-leaders and perform somewhere between guild and PuG level.

Anyway, there has to be some kind of reward for guild raiding compared to PuGing as it requires a lot more dedication and effort. People should WANT to raid in a guild as much as possible and only resort to PuGing if they somehow can't dedicate themselves. But to be honest, there are so many forms of guild out there, there is one for every type of player. Yes, even for someone who plays once in a blue moon.

Wrath is problematic because there are people who don't actually WANT to be in a guild. And they don't WANT to be in a guild because they see no UPSIDE to it. And they see no upside to it because they can achieve much of their goals by PuGing. This is an issue for an MMO with otherwise pretty weak socializing features as it makes the game easy to drop (due to players not having strong social ties withing the game, something that otherwise keeps people from quitting), and allows no repercussions for anti-social or simply bad behavior.

It's a bit like the Real-ID debate: Blizzard hoped (and probably rightly so) that having people being held socially responsible for their online behavior would help curb trolling and anti-social commentary on the forums and help promote intelligent debates. PuGing is more like posting on 4chan, where nobody can be held responsible for anything because they have no social ties within the community.

[Tribunal]

A PuG is nothing but the people in it.

Everyone is always like "OHHH On this other server they PuG 11/12 25!!" that speaks to absolutely nothing but the fact that there are more (volume-wise, not quality-wise) talented players on that server, and that the talented players are more willing to PuG, period.

I promise that not every PuG goes 11/12, and that there are the occasional PuGs (usually only about half PuG anyways, and even then it's often pulled from a group of trusted/known people - a LOT easier to progress with a group like that, it's approaching guild status) that do on every server.


People just pick up on a random occurrence and start taking it as the norm. It may be more common there, but that does not mean it -always- happens there and -never- happens here.

[Xeraxis]

Your right of course that pugging alone doesn't make you a bad player. There are also guilds that are worse than many Pugs and there are also Pugs that do exceptionally well. However, I think there are a few thing one can generalize about both forms of raiding.

Pick-up-group (formed just prior to the actual raid, maybe as little as 30 minutes in advance):
-Have players of very mixed skill-levels and back-grounds. Yeah a mix of good and bad.
-Frequently have people with very little raid-experience and no preparation. Personal opinion with no way to prove otherwise.
-Player selection is done superficially, mostly by looking at the class/specc and GearScore. Or they actually go for a wide range of classes.
-generally lack the same dedication compared to guilds. People tend to start leaving after a few wipes. Personal opinion and you can always get more in.
-The overall performance level of the group as a whole is generally lower compared to a guild raid. Depends on the guild that is raiding.
-Loot is rolled on with no further consideration about optimal use etc. Depends if ML understands NBG and is willing to enforce it.
-VOIP is mostly used. Never seen a PUG not use vent.
-Individuals can't be held responsible for their actions. There are no real repercussions for anti-social or destructive behavior. You must not have a Trade Chat on your server. You fuck up in a PUG the whole server hears about it in minutes. You fuck up in a guild run usually just the guild knows about it.

In comparison Guild Raids generally have:
-Have players of comparable skill-levels and similar ambitions although there are always certain variations. Either mostly good or mostly bad.
-Prepare themselves for their raid-encounters and often have a long history of raiding experience. Raid experience =/= skill. Hey guys I know I wipe us every week but damn I've had tons of experience doing it.
-Player selection is done over a trial period of days/weeks. Applicants must make an effort and show initiative and skill to get accepted. Or be friends with the GM and/or officers yet still have no skill.
-Dedication varies from guild to guild but generally no one leaves prematurely without a good excuse. People will return to try again the next day. Or they'll show up for farm days but if they're going for progression screw that.
-The overall performance level of the raid is mostly higher compared to typical PuGs. Depends on the guild that is raiding.
-Loot is mostly distributed via some kind of DKP system that rewards regular players. Or promotes hoarding of points just to further their own GS.
-VOIP is always used with very few exceptions. Who chooses to not use vent when raiding?
-Individuals can be held responsible for their actions. There are repercussions for anti-social or destructive behavior. Yeah a guild kick. Then they just move on to another guild and do the same.

Oh how we love to see things as they best fit into whatever point we are trying to get across.

[Azutael]

Normals dungeons and heroic dungeons should always be pugable. With heroics requiring a little more than just run in and aoe everything.
Normal raids should be pugable later on when people are starting to overgear it, but not before. Even then you probably shouldnt be able to do the entire raid as a typical pug.
Hardmodes should probably not be pugable. Atleast not before the end of the expansion, and you go back to do the hardmodes for the lowest tiers of content in that expansion.

[Ninji]

Normal 5: Obviously all should be puggable, not a walkover though, put a little bit of training in there.
Heroic 5: Needs to be training for players, this is a crucial part of progression where the opportunity for blizzard to make it a training ground is great, there needs to be some challenging encounters and trash packs here to prepare people for raiding.

Normal 10: A well lead group of raiders from different guilds should be able to take down the majority of bosses, but for the average pug only about 25% of it should be doable. Casual guilds should still be able to clear it given enough time. PuGs are able to take down 50-75% after the next tier has been released, and 100% cleared when the next tier after that comes.
Normal 25: Same as above, though pugging will be more difficult due to logistics.

Heroic 10: Not even close to puggable, a challenge for even the top 20% of raiding guilds in the world.
Heroic 25: Same as Heroic 10.

That's my ideal PvE model.

My name is Ninji and I approve this message.

[Deleted]

I know a lot of people feel strongly about this - but I have to ask, how often do you join a PuG raid and not wind up despairing of some of the member's ability to learn/react/play? A PuG full of excellent players will do fine, but that's not what most people (at least where I play) think of as a 'PuG' - we take it for granted that up to 50% of the group is going to turn out to be under-performing.

Personally, I think that's the sort of PuG that scares people, and generates all the venom - I've gotten into a PuG or two that worked really well, mostly composed of raiders who already knew the content, and it went great. However, the average PuG doesn't do that well. The PuGs made up of those who know what they're doing has no reason not to do well - it's the 'typical' PuG run that's going to have trouble. The ones who don't get the tactics, who never re-apply DoTs, who mis-gem, etc, etc.

But that's sort of the story of Cataclysm so far, isn't it? Raising the bar, and needing to learn a bit more about what you're doing! All good game, from where I sit!

[Deleted]

Oh how we love to see things as they best fit into whatever point we are trying to get across.

Unless of course you pull some random BS out of your arse that you think makes you look smart but in reality just shows you're an ignorant douche.

-Have players of very mixed skill-levels and back-grounds. Yeah a mix of good and bad. -As someone else said itt, He expects a good 50% of a PuG to under-perform. In a guild I might have my 2-5 dimwits but that's about it.
-Frequently have people with very little raid-experience and no preparation. Personal opinion with no way to prove otherwise. -Personal experience, not opinion. And since you're only a single personal as well you can't have a more valid PoV. I persoanlly have never seen or heard of a PuG tat would actively prepare before PiGing a raid-instance (unless you count buying a Flask as preparing).
-Player selection is done superficially, mostly by looking at the class/specc and GearScore. Or they actually go for a wide range of classes. -Duh...that's what I said...they look for specific classes or speccs.
-generally lack the same dedication compared to guilds. People tend to start leaving after a few wipes. Personal opinion and you can always get more in. -Only because you can replace people it still means people leave because of a lack of dedication. And btw. this goes beyond personal experience and is commonly shared throughout the community.
-The overall performance level of the group as a whole is generally lower compared to a guild raid. Depends on the guild that is raiding. -Sure, but I'm talking about generalizations here. And generally speaking guild raids outperform PuG raids.
-Loot is rolled on with no further consideration about optimal use etc. Depends if ML understands NBG and is willing to enforce it. -Not sure what you're talking about.
-VOIP is mostly used. Never seen a PUG not use vent. -I have, albeit not often. I do frequently see some PUger refusing to join the VOIP.
-Individuals can't be held responsible for their actions. There are no real repercussions for anti-social or destructive behavior. You must not have a Trade Chat on your server. You fuck up in a PUG the whole server hears about it in minutes. You fuck up in a guild run usually just the guild knows about it. -Sure, people can build a bad reputation over-time. But a single bad action or mishap isn't serious enough to cause this. I guess it depends on the server, but I've had guild members and other random people recommend against taking certain individuals on PuGs. Still, while the repercussions can be server-wide in extreme cases, they are generally less severe than in a guild that can at least ban you from loot, raiding or even kick you.

In comparison Guild Raids generally have:
-Have players of comparable skill-levels and similar ambitions although there are always certain variations. Either mostly good or mostly bad. How many people in Paragon would you call bad? How many in Weaslie's Weasels would you call Good? Common goals bring together people of common ambition and common skill level.
-Prepare themselves for their raid-encounters and often have a long history of raiding experience. Raid experience =/= skill. Hey guys I know I wipe us every week but damn I've had tons of experience doing it. -Experience is a large part of what defines skill in WoW. Experience also refers to an able and stable leadership
-Player selection is done over a trial period of days/weeks. Applicants must make an effort and show initiative and skill to get accepted. Or be friends with the GM and/or officers yet still have no skill. - Happens, but not many guilds are made up entirely of GM friends with no skill. Most applications are still handled the way I described.
-Dedication varies from guild to guild but generally no one leaves prematurely without a good excuse. People will return to try again the next day. Or they'll show up for farm days but if they're going for progression screw that. -Happens, but remains the exception. And often these people become very unpopular very quickly.
-The overall performance level of the raid is mostly higher compared to typical PuGs. Depends on the guild that is raiding. -Ofc it does but did you read the part of this post where I said I was generalizing? Thought so...because generally guild -raids > PuGs.
-Loot is mostly distributed via some kind of DKP system that rewards regular players. Or promotes hoarding of points just to further their own GS. -So, it still rewards regular participation unlike PuGing.
-VOIP is always used with very few exceptions. Who chooses to not use vent when raiding? -Rare, but there are few....often on RP-Servers.
-Individuals can be held responsible for their actions. There are repercussions for anti-social or destructive behavior. Yeah a guild kick. Then they just move on to another guild and do the same. -Yes...the Guild Kick is as far as a guild can go. Still it's more severed then kicking someone from a raid-group.

I hope you enjoyed your nonconstructive and frankly obnoxious contribution to this otherwise rather fruitful and interesting debate.

[Aarnor]

If we're talking about PuGs in the sense of a mostly random group of people then I think that normal raids should provide difficulty and give them a small chance of actually clearing the raid. If a "PuG" is composed of lots of guild members, alts from a couple guilds (typically the farther progressed guilds), or runs fairly consistently I personally don't take issue with or am surprised that they would be as successful as guild.

So long as the difficult content requires significant coordination then I'll be happy because if a PuG succeeds then they either outgear it by far so they can facesmash through it or are as coordinated as a guild would be expected to be. The amount of coordination required in a raid is the key to gating content to PuGs.

To answer the question of this thread I feel normal dungeons should be fairly easy, heroics and normal raids should be fairly difficult and require some coordination for maximum effectiveness (mostly raids), and heroic raids should require coordination to the point where the only "PuGs" who can do it aren't truly PuGs because the group really isn't random (all of these refer to the current content I don't care if T11 stuff is easy in T14).

[mik32120]

Why should they lave PuGs behind one or two tiers, just because most of them don't have the time for a guild with concrete raiding times?!
That's bullsh**! PuGs don't have to be worse than guild groups. Saying that is as stupid as saying "People who don't play 24/7 = casuals = retards"!

If you mean PuG by bad players without skill: Well, they shouldn't get too far. If you mean PuG by normal people, who would raid with a guild, if they'd have the time for it, I think they should get to the final bosses with enough skill, CC and class knowledge.

[Deleted]

If you mean PuG by normal people, who would raid with a guild, if they'd have the time for it, I think they should get to the final bosses with enough skill, CC and class knowledge.

PuGs are pick-up-groups, nothing more and nothing less. To be honest, there is a guild for EVERY type of WoW player out there. Simply not wanting to dedicate to a guild is a bad excuse. There are plenty of guilds out there that are extremely casual about their raiding roosters and allow pretty much anyone to come along if they have the time. There is really no good reason not to be in a guild of some kind, no matter how casually you play the game. And if you don't want to interact with other people, well then maybe an MMO is not for you (and there is still plenty of stuff to do solo). Raiding is by nature a group experience.

[Foibles]

Normal modes

[CrunkJuice5]

i disagree with the socializing aspect.
on my server i was a total raid whore during naxx days and i pugged them all. i became just as geared as high end raiders and i met practically everyone on the server. people still rember my name now in ICC and since im not some fail mode scrub they relate my name in vent with some who knows what their doing.

But i do agree with you that something messed up big time if i can pug ICC 11/12 with 3 heriocs in there.

your assuming every server can just up and pug 11/12 ICC with 3 heroics in there.not every server can

[Direshadow]

The last 2 or 3 regular instances should be geared towards pugs.

Everything else should require teamwork and coordination.

[Deleted]

The last 2 or 3 regular instances should be geared towards pugs.

Everything else should require teamwork and coordination.

That.

[gamhacked]

You can pug 12/12 with far more heroics than 3, something that is quite sad.

Like the poster below you already replied, 30% buff.

I despise reminiscent fools recollecting the game 5 years ago through the veil of nostalgia.

If you're men, farm ICC HC without the buff, even allowing for better-than-necessary gear. Then say it's easy.

[Zao]

Oh look, we didn't have the "catering to casuals" discussion before. I'm so happy that there's finally a new thread on this!

Seriously people, this topic is overdone. If you really want to voice your opinion about it, do so in one of the established thread and don't open a new one to post your "new and exciting" PoV.

Last Word