Ret Palas vs Frost Mage even more of a joke in cata?

[takolin]

You forgot about our perma pet that can be healed by doing damage to you and ice lances who'll be significantly harder when your caught by: frost nova, pet freeze, imp CoC, when you break ice barrier or when Fof procs while we frostbolt you.

Arcane will put a slow on you by casting AB and knock you back when you break their mana shield. You'll get stunned for 3 seconds after we break sheep.

And fire will kite circles around you by casting mana free scorches on the move and flinging instant pyro's who's mana free as well. Now if you manage to get close, imp CoC, DB, curtain of frost and nova will stop you in your tracks and to make things more annoying we can apply a 3sec 70% slow on a 15 seconds cooldown as well. Now if you manage to catch up, each melee or ranged hit (I assume judgement counts) has a 10% chance to give us a 8sec sprint to get away. When we're lucky, we'll throw a 2 second stun in your face.


But you can feel comforted by the fact that hunters will most likely still eat us alive.

[Munk]

PVP in WoW was, is and always will be borked. Its why I refuse to PVP in anything other than Wintergrasp where (on my server) alliance rapes horde. Its not fun its not neat its not interesting.

Blizzard has adhered to a flawed design of pvp where its not based on 1v1 but rather ∞V∞. Its quite simple to understand. A game of "hard counters" where the only REAL counter is that same class IE a handful of classes dominating PVP its a joke.

Blizzard themselves dont even understand pvp which is why they cant balance it (since I dont believe they honestly are vindictive or spiteful enough to purposely hamper certain classes). In concept a system where rock beats scissors, scissors beats paper, and paper beats rock is good provided you can get equal representation for all three. However in PVP its NEVER an equal representation because you have your rock, your paper and your scissors and the other classes dont really fall under any category.

IF blizzard actually wishes to stick to the "we dont balance around 1v1" then the only logical alternative is to force certain class slots. So design one spec to be a pvp spec per class and limit bg's to a set number of slots for those archetypes to fill. the problem with this is its "not fun" and hinders player freedom....

So freaking balance the game around 1v1 the way it should have been since launch, stop being lazy stop making excuses for poor representation.

Its really a shame that WoW doesnt have an honest to God competitior because if they did they might actually work on quality control of this product like they do on some of their others. I mean you dont see top tier SC2 players ONLY taking one race and saying screw the other 2 since they arent balanced.

With the proper strategy any race will win out, and its much more interesting and fun to watch and play as a result.

WTB skill based pvp not class/spec based.

[Vizardlorde]

You wrote a long post. I read it, now read the responce


Yes, and every class has a counter class who do rets counter? critters?

BETA yea cata is 2 months away and blizzard hasnt mentioned that there's something wrong with ret when clearly there is

So your theory is based on a scenario where the Mage and casters in general will have an advantage against Ret paladins and melee in general...

I agree that spellsteal is a very powerful tool against the paladin, but Judgement should not have it’s cooldown decreased or anything based on the paladins weakness to being kited. you forgot dispels and snares
The buff should perhaps be immune to spellsteal.


That is simply a counter move. Everything doesn’t have to be skill based instead of class based.

Obviously you shouldn’t be able to remove crowd control effects till hell freezes over yea but clearly the mage can

This is a PvE change. Since only healers and I think shadow priests will be able to remove magic upon friendly targets.warlock's imps too...

The fact that you didn’t need your trinket for the stun proves why it was nerfed. yea and blink is perfectly fine

You run faster than the mage does, so you will get closer whether he detects the bubble sooner or later. you do not run faster with a 40% slow wuth 100% uptime except for the 8 seconds of hand of freedom

This will only happen if the mage has the terrain advantage isnt that all the time

You’re not supposed to deal heavy damage while in bubble. That’s the whole point of the damage reduction.

You can bubble, freedom and trinket out of freezes and trinket and bubble out of stun and morph. i wont even say whats wrong with this...

Of course does it break on damage, there’s no class with two instant cast stuns with no prerequisites to them that would be absurdly overpowered. Besides you can deal damage to him and might generate holy power, which allows you to deal more damage. the answer is cooldown
And improved blink doesn’t make it easier since seal of justice should prevent the speed increase from taking effect. And you should use the opportunity to use it while he is repented.

Might be a good thing to have for pvp

Okay

World of Retribution Paladin versus Frost Mage.
Not everything is done with this fight in mind you know.

Even the Feral Druid has mana issues against the Frost Mage, even if it heals less than the Ret Paladin.lol at this 1 no longer the case in cata
Again, he can only silence you if he is inside line of sight. If he goes around the corner in an arena one versus one scenario, he might get annihilated by your melee damage. 40 yard range + wide cast arc+ slows = no los
Holy Power Generation: http://cata.wowhead.com/spell=26023

The mage moves slower than the paladin, therefore the paladin will get closer during the time the mage uses to spellsteal.

The heal is probably the biggest heal, so comparing to something like the art of war flash light doesn’t make too much sense. Besides in another terrain you can go out of line of sight and cast a holy light or so.
Again, Holy Power Generation: http://cata.wowhead.com/spell=26023

Terrain.
Wings can be used to get a HoW off and then you can remove the buff, if it’s necessary. wings get stolen to nuke the paladin

Seal of Justice doesn’t slow, it limits movement, for 5 seconds. Imp. Blink lasts 3 seconds. the blink itself makes enough distance for the paladin not to catch you the sprint is a bit unnecesary

Again, terrain.
Again, Holy Power Generation: http://cata.wowhead.com/spell=26023

Conclusion: You never fight a caster in open space if it can be avoided. If you can’t avoid it, then you’re basically screwed.

fixed read bold

[Varabently]

Pillar hump harder plz

[Vizardlorde]

Pillar hump harder plz

lol just blizzard the pillar

[Deleted]

My laggy duels in the PTR have been pretty pathetic. I can't say I've fought a frost mage yet, because I haven't met one to fight, but I have fought against a fire mage and it wasn't pretty, every move you make is easily countered.

Stun? Blinked
Repent? Dragon's Breath once broken
PoJ and LaoTL? Blazing Speed and Molten Shields (Thats 45% for Paladins vs 50% for Mages)
Divine Shield? Continue kiting due to the above speed boost or just iceblock it
Move to LoS? Stunned/Frost Nova
Try healing? Counterspell -> Fake cast? HL heals for about 4k, FoL requires 3-5 casts to heal to around 80% health and will leave you mana starved, although that is less of a problem now.
Managed to heal? Unlikely, a free casting fire mage is standing right there (Of course depends on LoS, but this duel had no LoS to use)

I know this isn't a frost mage, and don't take this as "QQ the sky has fallen, and flattened me to the ground" just reporting what my duels have found. Also, as I said this was with some dodgy lag, the big one being players still moving 15 yards while stunned/repented.

[Pantelija]

Nobody counters Frost Mage , but hey its not like are shooting 10 frost bolts and 8k Ice lances on beta on lvl 80 with premade gear ... oh wait nevermind

[Foibles]

WoW is not balanced around 1v1, and never will be.

/thread

Doesn't really matter if everything the OP said is true or not, but this^

[Natrii]

My best "attempt" at killing a frost mage on the ptr involed me using all my holy power for WoG only and beating his pet for AoW procs and launching insta free exorcisms at him...got him down to about 30 percent...hit wings and launched a HoW at him...stupid Iceblock...then he killed me. So I think it is possible just have to be creative.

[Andron]

And ... what are you gonna do when there's no pet?
Anyway, I don't think it's intended that one would have to hit a pet to actually bring any damage to it's owner.

[Flaks]

There is one thing that's making frost mages retardedly overpowered is the fact that they can pull off 15k ice lances consistently. The proc rate for fingers of frost is way too high right now and this results in them having to rely on nothing but instant casts to kill their opponents.

[Alenko]

I can only give you my first thought, as I do not wish to go into depth on every point you named.

But #1 is easily circumvented. Judge, move in and when the mage starts casting spellsteal, stun/repentance. You're normally moving at about 5yards/s and now have a 45% buff - which means you need roughly 4 secs to close in after interrupting a spellsteal and casting repentance (assuming the mage has blinked). Stupid mages will trinket here.

Once up close, your HoF should give you enough time to stay in close - even with a freeze - to work towards a Templars Verdict. With your stun in reserve.... Etc.


Simply put: There are always strategies... and for the smart and skilled Paladin, a singular frost mage should pose no problem. Yes, depending on CD's, the element of surprise etc a frost mage can be a tough cookie in arena / pvp.

However, if this worries you so much I suggest you find a mage buddy to duel with at lvl 85. Train yourself, develop skill and it'll pay off.

If there truly is any imbalance, don't tackle the frost mages on your own and do not expect to be the only class with issues vs frost mages. It'll be fixed, or not. If it's not fixed, you're just granted more time with a proper challenge to improve your skill.

pro tip: spell steal doesn't have a cast time, its instant so your entire "strat" just blew up in your face (oh and if you repent they IB it and keep moving, HoJ you say? blink). also if the mage is at least half awake, you'll never get within 10 yards of him.

Spell Steal and thats the Cata one if you were wondering.

[Litledevil]

I really dont see why are you are QQing like you never dominated the whole of vanilla and tbc~ OH WAIT! It's not like you dont dominate in Wrath either. Lolstunloldead. Paladins were OP in one patch... one patch and you cry..ummm let me see 1 patch vs 2 expansions...oh I wonder who wins?

I gave up trying to beat frost mages along time ago on my pally. There is no point they are the most OP class in the game. Hell even I have a frost mage there is just nothing to counter it. I roll around in bgs with crappy gear and I can still steamroll people with shadowmourne and whatnot~

have u forgotten holy palas in tbc?or retries in t2 in vanilla? dont make me laugh scrub

[Andron]

Vanilla? You absolutely sure you want to bring vanilla up as an argument for Ret being OP? Reconsider. Oh and ... yeah, this thread is totally about Holy.

[Doylez]

My best "attempt" at killing a frost mage on the ptr involed me using all my holy power for WoG only and beating his pet for AoW procs and launching insta free exorcisms at him...got him down to about 30 percent...hit wings and launched a HoW at him...stupid Iceblock...then he killed me. So I think it is possible just have to be creative.

Was that mage completely naked by any chance? Because otherwise I believe you're talking complete bullshit. AoW procs are rare and exorcism hits for next to nothing, you wouldn't even get through his ice barrier with that. WoG also heals for shit, you can't even outheal a single frostbolt with it.
Btw today on PTR I got killed in a single Deep Freeze, from 33k HP to dead in a single stun while wearing over 1000 resilience, no chance of reacting. And you're telling me you almost killed a mage with a single spell while healing yourself against that kind of damage... yeah nice fairy tale there.

Judge, move in and when the mage starts casting spellsteal, stun/repentance. You're normally moving at about 5yards/s and now have a 45% buff - which means you need roughly 4 secs to close in after interrupting a spellsteal and casting repentance (assuming the mage has blinked). Stupid mages will trinket here.

Once up close, your HoF should give you enough time to stay in close - even with a freeze - to work towards a Templars Verdict. With your stun in reserve.... Etc.


Simply put: There are always strategies... and for the smart and skilled Paladin, a singular frost mage should pose no problem. Yes, depending on CD's, the element of surprise etc a frost mage can be a tough cookie in arena / pvp.

However, if this worries you so much I suggest you find a mage buddy to duel with at lvl 85. Train yourself, develop skill and it'll pay off.

You must also be living in a different world than the rest of us. None of this does even come close to reality.

[Deleted]

Learn to be worth something, and heal or tank, you failadin.

Oh I could flame you so hard right now, but I wont cause I'm a good guy.

On the matter at hand, I do not see retribution getting anywhere close to a frost mage, unless 2 things happen.
One, we get magic dispell back with cleanse. (In wotlk didn't help us that much, but it's something)
And two, a gap closer. It is mandatory for a melee class without any slowing effects to have one. We relied far too long on HoF, a dispellable buff.

[Natrii]

Was that mage completely naked by any chance? Because otherwise I believe you're talking complete bullshit. AoW procs are rare and exorcism hits for next to nothing, you wouldn't even get through his ice barrier with that. WoG also heals for shit, you can't even outheal a single frostbolt with it.
Btw today on PTR I got killed in a single Deep Freeze, from 33k HP to dead in a single stun while wearing over 1000 resilience, no chance of reacting. And you're telling me you almost killed a mage with a single spell while healing yourself against that kind of damage... yeah nice fairy tale there.



You must also be living in a different world than the rest of us. None of this does even come close to reality.

I did not say it was overly effective, or in any way practical. It took me dueling the same mage over and over again to get that type of results. it took alot of self healing and alot of RNG. Its not like I went and was on the first time it was like ok lets try this...and it works. It took quite a bit of practice...gogo org pillar humping.

[Vizardlorde]

on the bright side im glad frost is so OP so they can get a expansion a la paladin post 3.0 they deserve it...

[Agadax]

I mean you dont see top tier SC2 players ONLY taking one race and saying screw the other 2 since they arent balanced.

This is a terrible comparison. SC has 3 races. WoW has 10 classes, each with 3 talent trees. Also, WoW has the added issue of requiring balancing in a PvE setting.

I understand the frustration of being helpless in PvP. It's infuriating. I PvP regularly with my lock and hunter. Rogues are the bane of my warlock. I have a macro to trinket and insta-howl that I spam when stun-locked and that will work about 50% of the time. Otherwise once a rogue pops up behind me, it's usually just time to make a sandwich.

Yes, if Blizz dedicated one tree for each class to PvP, ignoring their PvE viability, then they might pull off balanced 1v1 PvP (there'd still be mass QQ, I would bet), but I bet you'd find that even fewer people would be happy than under the current model. A lot of people dismiss Ghostcrawler when he says that what people crave is choice but he's absolutely right. Give people 2 or 3 choices for PvP where they can experience a moderate level of success and they'll be happier than giving them no choice and have them die a bit less.

[Vizardlorde]

This is a terrible comparison. SC has 3 races. WoW has 10 classes, each with 3 talent trees. Also, WoW has the added issue of requiring balancing in a PvE setting.

I understand the frustration of being helpless in PvP. It's infuriating. I PvP regularly with my lock and hunter. Rogues are the bane of my warlock. I have a macro to trinket and insta-howl that I spam when stun-locked and that will work about 50% of the time. Otherwise once a rogue pops up behind me, it's usually just time to make a sandwich.

Yes, if Blizz dedicated one tree for each class to PvP, ignoring their PvE viability, then they might pull off balanced 1v1 PvP (there'd still be mass QQ, I would bet), but I bet you'd find that even fewer people would be happy than under the current model. A lot of people dismiss Ghostcrawler when he says that what people crave is choice but he's absolutely right. Give people 2 or 3 choices for PvP where they can experience a moderate level of success and they'll be happier than giving them no choice and have them die a bit less.

dont forget that druids and paladins cant have a dedicated pvp tree because each tree has a different role in pve melee dps/ healer tank...