Raid Idea

[Rooshdi]

Hey guys,

I was just thinking of a cool idea for a raid. Imagine if one of the raid encounters, you have to defeat a raid of players of the opposite faction. Although this would be difficult to work, Blizz would have to follow these rules to make the encounter playable.

1. Imagine that the faction battle encounter is after boss X. After the raid defeats boss X, defeat the trash and enter the room for the faction battle, a 5 min timer begins. During this time, WoW would be searching for another raid group of the opposite faction who are at the same stage of the raid. If they are found, a NPC announces that the battle will begin in 30 seconds, then the gates (or whatever) open and the battle begins. At certain times in the day, it might be rare to find a raid of the opposite faction who are at the same stage as you, therefore if the initial 5 minute timer finishes, then WoW makes you fight against a bunch of soldiers of the opposite faction like the Coliseum battle in TotC.

2. In order to prevent players from switching to PvP gear, Blizz can make a debuff during the encounter for anyone wearing any single piece of gear with resilience. If a player has gear with resilience, they could have a nasty DoT with them throughout the fight. This will make it fair for all players, as this is a PvE encounter, and players who don't PvP will not be put at a disadvantage.

3. The battle is just fight to death; the last faction standing wins, and is able to loot a 'chest' or whatever. The loosing faction would need to repeat the encounter, but Blizz would make them fight against NPCs the second time round.

4. Some players may decide that it is easier to get killed by the players, and then repeat the encounters against the NPCs. In order to prevent this, Blizz would need to create an additional incentive if you manage to beat the players. This incentive should be a small thing, such as a 30min 5% increase damage buff.

So what do you guys think about this idea? Any thoughts to improve it?

[Deleted]

sweet idea but there would so many exploits,ingoing PVP REQ in raids and the classes ur against,think about it in pugs..."wtf do u mean i need full wrathfull or whatever"...the reci debuff wouldnt matter,even slightest reci would help and think about it, some guild would just be there 2 gank people with 10 freaking mages

[ArmyAndy]

Maybe as a pvp raid or something in that category but keep this far far away from pve !

[Rooshdi]

Maybe as a pvp raid or something in that category but keep this far far away from pve !

Well, as I said, the resilience debuff would make it fair, as all the players would have PvE gear. Also, the raid composition would be relatively the same for both sides, because in order to progress through the raid, they would need a normal raid composition making it also balanced (in terms of the number of healers, tanks, dps etc...). Players can dual spec to turn tanks into dps or whatever, in order to strategise for the fight. Also, as both factions have progressed this 'far' in raiding, it implies that both factions have similar levels of gear (considering the raid isn't outdated). This means the fight is still fair in that aspect.

[Deleted]

okay, these are all the issues i find with this:

PvE is inherently winnable. the goal is to win. with any reasonable raidcomp you can beat any raid encounter. PvP inherently is inbalanced, because raid compositions will never be completely equal. you cannot state that you can win a BG with any setup.
on top of that, many classes are disastruously OP in PvP against large groups. imagine unholy DK's: having 2K every 1.5 seconds on 25 players, on top of the normal burst that a common raidgroup has, is simply unhealable. the reason why faction champions in ToC is actually challenging instead of a 3 second encounter is because the NPC's have so much HP that they can take quite a beating, instead of being 3 shotted by the combined might of the raid. another example is battle rezzes: if one team has more druids and locks, battlerezzes could be a turning point.
player HP values are really low. assuming this would be done in cataclysm, you are talking about 100K HP. mobs with 130K HP are currently bursted in 10 seconds by 3 DPS and a tank in randoms without any CD's. if we assume a burst DPS increase of 500%, that means that players are blown up in less than half a second. if you disagree: go to AV and charge straight into the enemy zerg. if you survive for more than 5 seconds after entering combat with 0 resilience, you are retardedly OP.
now that we are talking about resilience: you have 2 options for resilience: allow it, or make it useless. you try to go for the second option with your DoT effect, but either the DoT is not strong enough to effect the battle, or the DoT is too strong and makes for even more burst. it is not that fun laying facedown from 5 seconds into the fight. i've been there, and just seeing other people kill each other is only fun in movies.
about the fun factor: some people have a strong aversion for PvP. the reason this game is so successful is that there are 2 (arguably 3) low-treshold ways of making fun once you have your first 80/85: leveling alts, PvP and PvE. many people (including me) like PvE because it's a) predictable, b) tactical and c) is a group factor of teamwork and cooperation. that's exaclty the opposite of PvP. PvP is unpredictable (because you don't know what you are faced with, nor what the enemy will do), hectic (especially the bigger fights) and a group effort won't really make that much a difference, since if you assign hunters for marking, you can just blow one up after the other without much thought and intercommunication. some people also heavily dislike PvP, and don't want their sense of power and the euphoria of victory stolen from them by another raid.
a minor problem related to marking: ever tried to mark an enemy player? you can't. raid markings don't work, and those are fundamental in tactical analysis of the opponent.
5 minutes of preparation is both too long and too short. it's too short for people who want to set up elaborate plans, but too long for those that want to progress fast.
progress should not depend on another faction. suppose you were in the rally for realm first for that raid. the winning party would automatically have an edge on that race, both with the 30 minute buff and one less wipe. generally, a wipe is 15 or so minutes of downtime: corpserun, rebuff, preparation,...

i could probably come up with a dozen more reasons.

[Rooshdi]

Hmm, yeah, you brought up a lot of serious pints nzall, thanks :P

Alright, you totally changed my stance on this. How about an encounter where instead of factions battling each other, they would help each other? WoW would find a group of players like I mentioned above, and then place both the Alliance and Horde against a greater enemy (Burning Legion, Old Gods, etc...).

The mechanics would be made so that if one faction fails, the other doesn't get punished as a result. For example, allow there to be 2 bosses, and a raid of horde and another of ally. Each faction attacks a different boss, and each faction cannot explicitly assist/hinder the other factions progress on the boss. Maybe halfway, the bosses switch and each faction has the other boss to deal with, or some other fun mechanic. If one raid wipes, maybe the boss can say something like: "I've done my job, its up to you to finish them off". Then the raid can beat the boss and get their loot.

If both raids succeed, then two rare cosmetic items should be a rewarded (one for each faction), so that both factions want to win. This should be an optional encounter (like Razorscale/Ignis), so that it doesn't affect players who want to progress normally through the dungeon. Unlike my previous idea, there should not be NPCs replacing players at any point; as it is an optional boss, the raid will have to wait until another raid from the opposite faction can join them. Also, there should be a buff that allows communication between factions; this will allow for some cool RPing and fun.

[Shiggity]

You're describing what it was like to kill a real outdoor raid boss, but slightly different.

Some of the most fun I've had in this game was doing outdoor raid bosses. Everyone cried about how it was unfair that 'no lifers' just camped the spots nearly 24/7 and would get every kill, so they took 'em out and gave us WG.

On PvP servers you'd have raids guarding raids just to kill those bosses and keep the other faction off. Nothin' like killin' a raid boss with 100+ watching you / trying to kill you.