Heroics becoming obsolete

[Colphus]

Best fix would be to add new heroics per new raid tier.

[Bazgab]

It seems that Cata has more of the "If you stand here or don't do something you are supposed to you will die" type Heroic boss abilities that weren't present for the most part in Wrath and they don't look like you can outgear these abilities that easily. So yes, it will be easier to run as the gear progresses and the bosses will go down faster but they will still require some attention. That and those types of mechanics are good for teaching people how to pay attention and react to situations in raids.

[Shinoashi]

The fact of the matter is, heroics were never intended to stay "difficult" forever. They're siply there for this reason. Heroics > First Tier Raid > Second Tier Raid > Third Tier Raid, etc., etc. So complaining about them getting too soft after you're around your second tier raid gear is just poinltess.

So basically if you want heoics to be continueouly a challenge. Level another character to max level, start over doing heroics in full blues, rince repeat.

I for one could give a shit if they get easier since they're not the content I get excited about. Nor do I care about them.

Stop beating this dead horse.

[Scuravolpe]

no one stops you from entering heroic with a group in lvl 100 gear. YOU are the one complaining. yeah, blizz is catering to the casuals to please a bigger group of players. if you want a challenge, you can easily have one. but guess what? you don't want one. you like to complain, however.

nothing new to see here...

Following your logic, having levels in the game is catering to casuals because I can solo Hogger at 80.

His argument was that the stuff seems easy because it isn't designed for a party in ICC gear. Utgarde Keep's Heroic mode is tuned for people who just hit 80, not for people who have ICC on farm. Learn to read.

[AlexGrey]

I don't think the Thread creator understands the ideology trying to be expressed by players...

Let me say this again; Heroics are a stepping-stone to 10/25 raiding, and thus should make players interested in PVE progression actually work to finish the Heroic. They are called HEROIC for a reason... they are intended to require a higher level of CC, gearscore, planning, and time spent so players can be properly prepped for the real raiding that lies ahead.

This not only makes Heroics more fun, but creates a more trusting world where new players applying for raids 'with heroic quality gear of course' can be more easily accepted.

There needs to be a natural-feeling learning curve, and not massive jumps of difficulty in content. Those who can't understand this concept...please try harder >.<

---------- Post added 2010-09-24 at 03:24 AM ----------

The fact of the matter is, heroics were never intended to stay "difficult" forever. They're siply there for this reason. Heroics > First Tier Raid > Second Tier Raid > Third Tier Raid, etc., etc. So complaining about them getting too soft after you're around your second tier raid gear is just poinltess.

So basically if you want heoics to be continueouly a challenge. Level another character to max level, start over doing heroics in full blues, rince repeat.

I for one could give a shit if they get easier since they're not the content I get excited about. Nor do I care about them.

Stop beating this dead horse.

We're not talking about beyond the first tier of raiding, son. They should still not be aoeable though, and teach new raiders how to use their character and properly work in a group. A FEW heroics in Wrath succeeded at that quite well, but the majority were a joke.

[Tyberes]

We're not talking about beyond the first tier of raiding, son. They should still not be aoeable though, and teach new raiders how to use their character and properly work in a group. A FEW heroics in Wrath succeeded at that quite well, but the majority were a joke.

and those few heroics where NEVER ran. even with the introduction of the LFD, people just dropped old kingdom and occulus and halls of any and everything. you can't force somebody to want to learn.

----edit----

disregard the above. im blind and didn't see the top half of your post.

[Deleted]

If Mechanics that are Easily AVOIDABLE one shot you, no matter how much better gear you has become. You must dodge this or you will die.

At least that way you cant muscle through it and just heal through the damage. Eventually people learn to dodge it and they get better. If they can just be healed through the damage like most of the mechanics in wrath then people will never learn.

Normal sindra frost bombs should 1 shot like they do on herioc. then when people came to doing herioc they wouldnt be so retardedly bad at it

[Darthslider]

Guys you are talking soooo much about TBC heroics... They were easely overgeared just like WotLK. I healed most of them as tier 6 elemental shammy with my prot pally friend. I remember some of our quest timerun into Shattered Halls with our other friend t6 warlock and 2 randoms... We complete it in 25 minutes and randoms just say: "guys you are crazy" and leave cos it was very fast and dangerous (like pulling 2-3 pack ). I heal it in resto of course ) TBC heroics was less forgiving to mistakes, then WoTLK, but if you know what you doing - it was piece of cake

Sorry for my English.

[Vaez]

Guys you are talking soooo much about TBC heroics... They were easely overgeared just like WotLK. I healed most of them as tier 6 elemental shammy with my prot pally friend. I remember some of our quest timerun into Shattered Halls with our other friend t6 warlock and 2 randoms... We complete it in 25 minutes and randoms just say: "guys you are crazy" and leave cos it was very fast and dangerous (like pulling 2-3 pack ). I heal it in resto of course ) TBC heroics was less forgiving to mistakes, then WoTLK, but if you know what you doing - it was piece of cake

Sorry for my English.

and thats how it should be.

[3nfy]

Heroics are really meant as a stepping stone for newer players before they start raiding. That and a gear stepping stone to raiding during the initial patch of the expansion.

[Darthslider]

And i just have another idea... Most of peeps who read and write on mmo-champ are kinda "good players". I just think most of really bad players never ever heard about site like this... So you all think that GO OUT OF THIS BIG BLACK VOID ZONE ON THE FLOOR is really easy but i know some guys who really cant do it cos they are bad players. Not bad guys but... ) So, the average player skill of forum readers much higher than skill of average wow player at all... It means more posts like "Heroics/raids/etc TOOO EASYYYY"

[3nfy]

There's a difference between bad players and inexperienced players.

[Deleted]

Why do people make this kind of posts?
Ghostcrawler said:
"When yo go from level 83 to level 85 you stay at the same amount of power relative to creatures. Why? Because the creatures are gaining levels. Their health goes up, so you need that extra AP. Their damage goes up, so you need that extra health. Your chance to crit and hit and parry them goes down, so you need those stats as well.

We are just faking the bosses gaining levels. We haven't worked out the exact mechanic yet, but imagine they are level 88++ or level 88.3 or level 88 SKULL SKULL BAD SKULL. As you get more powerful and get better gear, they get more powerful... exactly like all those bosses you handled while leveling up. Rather than critting and hitting the more dangerous opponents more often, your relative power stays about the same. You scale. "

The new heroics also have 1-shot mechanics into them.

You will NOT outgear them.

[Deleted]

Blizzard has the technology to do a simple fix to this, make the instance scale with the gear of the people entering it, if you can make vehicle npcs scale to ilvl you can make normal npcs scale to ilvl.

Yes. Because a fresh tank going in with a group of full top-tier dps should get one-shotted by the trash. Scaling random NPCs like this wouldn't work. Perhaps in a raid, but not in 5-man heroics.

[Darthslider]

i know this diference. I saw a grow up of friend of mine who first wipe us on saphiron 15 times in row and now - one of the best holly pala who i ever know )
I talk about bad players. There is enought of them in WoW. BTW there are two types of them: 1st - they know that about they skill and they just enjoy a game wiping in same company on Proff Purticide 10 with 30% buth normal. They really enjoy this game. Other trying to be "good" but not succesful and they make other peeps in they group suffer )

[Deleted]

Im struggling to believe the OP played game for 6 years...or if you did you apparently weren't around early tbc.Wotlk heroics were not challencing in anyway even when you were fresh 80.There was single dungeon that had 2 things that wiped some people, the arcane flurry trash in hol and the last boss in hol, other than that you steamrolled the heroics even in sunwell epics.Cata heroics will be harder and you won't steamroll them in lvl 80 gear(unless blizz decides to nerf them from what they are now).Yes eventually you will steamroll them too but they will never ever be as easy as wotlk heroics were.

I pulled 2-3 packs in wotlk heroics when I still had 80% lvl 70 swp epics and maybe 19k ub hp as warr tank.In tbc we really struggled if we happened to pull 2 packs in hc sethekk even tho entire group was wearing full swp gear.

[Panuar]

If you want to know what the problem with Wrath Heroics it is simple, players such as myself for example hit 80 on November 18, 2008. Within 24 hours I had TANKED the following heroics to completion without trouble,

Utgarde Keep
Utgarde Pinnicle
Violet Hold
Azjol'Nerub
Nexus

and the only reason it wasn't more was because I didn't attempt the others to that point.

within 5 days of hitting 80 I had completed all of the level 80 heroics as a tank without issue. And also had moved on to clearing 10 man Sarth and Naxx within the next week, mainly due to waiting for a full guild group to run with. And then a 2 weeks later had cleared 25man Naxx, again mainly due to waiting for enough people to hit 80 with a smaller close nit guild at the time.


The fact that many people were able to complete heroics the DAY they hit 80 shows there was a serious problem and lack of challenge. And I was completing these as a fresh tank in partially 70 gear still...

If the normal mode instances can hold most people over for over 2 weeks after hitting 85 I think they have done their job. Heroic modes should take effort and you should wipe, not walk in and wonder why you ever bothered wasting time in a normal mode when heroic is so easy.

[Zuroka]

Blizzard has the technology to do a simple fix to this, make the instance scale with the gear of the people entering it, if you can make vehicle npcs scale to ilvl you can make normal npcs scale to ilvl.

I think this sounds good on the surface, to make heroic difficulty consistent throughout the life of the expansion. However, I think the effect it would actually have is to make heroics HARDER over time. The reason is that the majority of players are bad, and they don't scale very well with gear (being bad doesn't prevent you from getting good gear). The instance would out-scale them over time, making it harder for them and thus, harder for the group. Assuming heroics get farmed a lot through the Dungeon Finder, you'll end up grouping with lots of bad players whose gear makes the instance harder then their skill compensates for. Eventually you'll be carrying 3-4 players per run and wipe a lot. Is that really what you want?

[Gron]

Think of it like this: When Heroics are released, they are tuned for that current patch/raid's gear lvl. At the beginning of Wrath, it was tuned for people who were in Blues (and in this case, purples because of the relative ease of acquiring them), but at a fairly low iLvl (200~ish?).

When the last 3 Heroics were released (the ICC ones), they were tuned for people in a much higher iLvl of gear than the others, which is why they seemed more difficult (and overall had a bit more challenging design).

I am really amazed, such a good company as Blizzard need to explain why the game design is not good in Wrath.
It was not an issue in TBC or Vanilla.

There are tonns of ways around this problem - e.g. make heroics harder, and make faction reputation items as entry for Tier 1 raiding gear + 5 man quest items.
This way heroic 5-mans could be really heroic 5-mans, needing great gear and skills to complete.

Normal players would run normal 5-mans, and heroic 5-mans would need the focus and attention from TBC.

The issue with the current design is that normal 5-mans are NEVER run, as its already obsolete when you hit lvl80.

[Shamslam]

The reason people complain is simple. Sure, WotLK may have been somewhat challenging in quest greens/blues, but in TBC you pretty much had to run the normal 5 mans to stand a chance in heroics. In WotLK, I was steamrolling heroics in under 30 minutes before I had T7. Compare that to TBC, where my group would be all T4 and still would find many of the heroics a challenge.

The "heroics becoming faceroll" is inevitable. In WotLK though, it happened before you even got into the first tier of raiding.