Making the Cata Talent Trees not suck..

[tniswong]

Hey everyone,

I canceled my account several months ago, but I'm coming back for Cata. I have no means of posting this myself or else I wouldn't be asking. I made up a talent build for Cata on War-Tools that I think solves most of the problems with the Warlock trees. I'm looking for someone to please post this on the WoW damage dealing forums and/or the beta forums if you have access. If you do post, please link the forum thread here in this thread. Also, please discuss my ideas and give constructive feedback.

Here's the talent tree: http: // www . war-tools.com/t70772.html (couldn't post link cause i'm too new to these forums)

My main focus was on PvP for Destro and lower Demonology, though I took a crack at all three trees.

I had 3 major goals in creating these trees.

1. Create subspecs attractive in each tree so that players don't feel pigeonholed into a specific subspec.
2. Create choices and variation on the way down a tree, without "requiring" more than 31 points per tree.
3. Give each spec a niche besides just the way they deal damage

I had trouble with goal 3 on the affliction tree so more input is welcome, but I feel destro/demo are pretty good. Aff still needs a lot more work.

Niche for Demo is escapability with the new Improved Demonic Circle.
Destro is going to be Control with Improved Shadowflame.
Aff I'm still having trouble with, but I assume it will be self-healing.

Here's the list of changes from the beta (does not reflect changes in most recent build: 13033)

Affliction
------------

Curse of Exhaustion - moved to T2
Siphon Life - now When you deal damage with your Corruption spell, you have a 50/100% chance to be healed for 1/2% of our total health.
Improved Howl of Terror - moved to T3, reduced to 1 rank
Improved Fear - moved to T4, renamed Nightmare, now requires 1 point in Improved Howl of Terror. Now All of your spells that inflict fear or horror effects now also inflict a Nightmare on the target when the fear or horror effect ends. The Nightmare effect reduces the target's movement speed by 25/50% for 5 sec.
Shadow Embrace - reworked. Your Shadow Bolt, and Haunt spells grant you the Shadow Embrace effect, increasing all shadow periodic damage dealt by you by 1.5/3/5%. Lasts for 12 sec. Stacks up to 3 times.

Demonology
------------------
Improved Health Funnel - moved to T1.
Dark Arts - Now also increases the amount of threat generated by your Voidwalker by 10/20/30%, and increases the damage done by your Succubus' Lash of Pain ability by 5/10/15%.
Master Summoner - Now also, after you summon any demon, increases its damage by 15/30% for 20 sec.
Impending Doom - Searing Pain now also has a chance to trigger this effect.
Demonic Aegis - Moved to T3
Molten Core - Now can also be triggered by Searing Pain.
Aura of Foreboding - Reduced to 1 Rank. Now roots for 3 seconds and stuns for the same amount of time if they are still in the aura after 3 seconds.
*NEW* Improved Soul Link (T4) - Reduces the amount of damage dealt to your summoned Demon through Soul Link by 100%
Cremation - moved to T5
Inferno - moved to T6. Now requires 3pts in Cremation.
*NEW* Improved Demonic Circle (T6) - Reduces the cast time of your Demonic Circle: Summon ability by 0.5 sec, and reduces the cooldown of your Demonic Circle - Teleport ability by 5/10sec.

Destruction
----------------
Bane - Moved to T2. Reduced to 2 ranks. No longer reduces the casting time of your Chaos Bolt.
Shadow and Flame - Moved to T2. Now also affects Searing Pain.
Improved Immolate - Increased to 3 ranks for 10/20/30% benefit.
Improved Soul Fire - Moved to T1
Improved Searing Pain - Renamed Flash Fire. Moved to T1. Now also affects Fel Flame.
Emberstorm - Now requires 2 points in Bane. now affects Chaos Bolt by 0.25/0.5 sec.
Shadowburn - Moved to T2
Bane of Havoc - Moved to T3
Nether Ward - Moved to T3. Removed the ridiculous armor requirement.
Shadowfury - Moved to T4.
Soul Leech - Moved to T5.
Nether Protection - Now, When your Netherward is consumed, dispelled, or otherwise removed, you gain Nether Protection reducing all spell damage taken by 15/30% (this may need to be nerfed to 10 or 20%)
*NEW* Improved Shadowflame (T6) - Your Shadowflame now causes affected targets to flee in horror for 1.5/3 sec, but increases the cooldown to 25 sec.

[Deleted]

Probably wont be anymore changes other than fixing the numbers, so if you are unhappy you should probably think about another class.

[tniswong]

This isn't about whining and changing classes. This is about coming up with a constructive solution to the problems and presenting them in a well thought out manner. I'm aware they'll probably never get implemented. It's fun to dream what we COULD have been if we go the same amount of attention as Mages, so I put together this vision. Everyone complains about the changes they make, but offer no alternative suggestions. This is an attempt to change that.

If you care to provide some feedback, constructive criticism, or post this for me on the WoW forums then great. Otherwise, please don't troll my thread. I'm willing to guess you didn't even read the whole thing. Why don't you take a look and respond with what you like and don't like, or what you think is OP. We can go from there.

[gherkin]

If we're fantasizing, I want an ability to instantly nuke any stealthed Rogue within 20 yards in the most gloriously extravagent display of awesome possible. Friendly or not.

Something that tells people 100's of yards away "A Warlock just destroyed a Rogue and wanted you all to know about it. You're welcome."

[tniswong]

While I respect your fantasy, I'm aiming for balanced suggestions not 'iwin' buttons. Please discuss my original post and provide feedback with what you like, what you don't like, what you would change, etc. Not omgwftbbq i want to pewpew lazers 2 teh roguez cuz i hatez them with a fiery passion!

And I'm still looking for someone to post this on the WoW forums.

[gherkin]

Honestly, I like the talent trees as they are. There is definate room for improvement, but at this point nothing short of revolt and concrete proof that a certain talent/spec is completely broken will convince them to change it. The only thing that will is an entire patch of data for them to base their decisions on, and I'm perfectly comfortable with that. This will be the first expansion where I will be pushing progression right out of the gate, rather than getting to the level cap and going "Now what", and will gladly push the envelope in the official forums should there be something inconvenient, boring, complicated, or simply "please don't make me do this, it's not fun"

Good luck getting someone else to post this on the official wow forums. I don't imagine too many people want to be flamed for something they didn't write.

[Knighthonor]

problem I have with the beta Demo Tree, is that it feels less Minion focused.

[tniswong]

This is supposed to be a discussion about the trees I made, not a discussion about getting the trees changed or whether you're happy with them or not. I'm not interested in whether or not they will make these changes or whether or not the trees are broken. I know they probably wont change anything, and I know the trees are 'good enough'.

What I am interested in, is coming up with ideas that would put us in a better place. Ideas that make our trees look like they have half of the polish and thought that the Mages got. Right now, they work, but they are incoherent dribble with no clear direction with an uninspired demo tree, bloated aff tree, and destro which has almost 0 viable alternative choices. Not to mention no competitive choices as subspecs. My trees go a long way to address these things if you were to actually look over them.

And who the hell cares about getting flamed? Post anywhere on any topic on the wow forums, you'll get framed by some anonymous 5 year old.

I'm not convinced that anyone who's replied so far as even glanced at my changes. I'm trying to have an intelligent discussion here, and it seems none of you are willing. So, I'll ask again: what do you like about my trees, what don't you like, what do you think is OP, and what would you change?

And gherkin, as a 'moderator' I would think you would want to actually facilitate intelligent discussion, but it seems you're more interested in derailing threads with your negativity and bringing up totally irrelevant points to this discussion. That, my friend, is not very becoming of you.

[gherkin]

Here's the reason no one has looked at your trees: this is the same post, 3 times a week, by different people, and quite frankly the community just doesn't care anymore. On multiple occasions a week, someone thinks "I'll use the war-tools.com to make my own tree and facilitate discussion" and thinks its an original and ingenious idea. And for every sincere post, there are two other joke posts. Any time I see a "war-tools.com" link, I just completely ignore the content of the post. Reading it would require me to invest time and energy into reviewing something with a 75% chance of being a joke post or so poorly designed that you have to wonder how/if they got out of elementary math.

I've already given my opinion on your talent trees in a previous post, but I'll now retype it saying the things I didn't think needed to be said.

Honestly, I like the talent trees as they are. There is definate room for improvement, but at this point nothing short of revolt and concrete proof that a certain talent/spec is completely broken will convince them to change it.

becomes

Honestly, I like the talent trees as they are and think reviewing what you came up with to be a pointless endeavor. Sure there is room for improvement and I agree that there doesn't seem to be any direction in the trees, but why must there be? Mages were designed by Kalgan, someone with a PHD in mathematics and other really complicated stuff so of course theirs are going to look cool. I'm really happy that you're so eager to come up with a solution on par with Mages, but at this point the time and energy spent discussing your changes in a tiny 50 post thread (which is, in fact, tiny by comparison to the wow forums) will not make any impact whatsoever. The specs work as intended and will let us do competitive damage at 85, and will take the entirety of 4.0 through till the date 4.1 launches to put the necessary polish on the class. Warlocks are notoriously hard to get right, and if you look through our history you will see that we are either under or overpowered. It took them until 3.3 to get us "right", and even then many consider 3.3 to be less than optimal.

But I'll bite, you have put enough energy into keeping this alive. I'll review in my next post due to a dumb, dumb glitch with IE (I have to use IE at work)

---------- Post added 2010-09-24 at 01:03 PM ----------

Affliction - You just changed the order around and I see no improvement whatsoever. You spoke of "direction", but I still don't see any. Just a spec that bases itself around fixing everything that was broken in 3.3 (multitarget curses, Corruption refresh, execute clipping). No optional room to take anything fun. Lastly, you force us to take 3 points in +fire damage in order to reach Shadow and Flame - completely mandatory for an Affliction build. Fel Flame is not worth buffing in my opinion.

Demonology - You force me to take stamina or summon pet faster talents to get to tier 3 - I need neither of these in PVE, but it seems ok for PVP. Tier 3 requires 3 points be spent in something optional, but nothing feels worth taking. Improved Soul Link is OP beyond measure and in the event that you actually take it will kill your demon faster than you can blink. Improved Demonic Circle is also OP, considering Demo is the only spec with a defensive cooldown (meta). Last few points are forced to spend on strange talents I don't want in order to get Meta. Very last point is just floating - I have nothing to finish off with 1 point and nothing is worth taking for 1 point. Summary: Way way too many optional talents, and things that require 3 talent points should only take 2.

Destruction - You didn't solve anything. I have to take every possible PVE talent (even the optional ones!) to make the spec work and there is nothing else worth taking. Outside the tree I am left with 5 points to spend on keeping my pet alive (strange) or stamina or optional utility I don't feel I need.

Overall, you gave me more talent points to spend on things but I don't feel like anything was worth spending the points on. Please keep in mind that I am thinking of this from a non-dps focused mentality, where defensive cooldowns or stuns and whatnot are useful.

[tniswong]

On multiple occasions a week, someone thinks "I'll use the war-tools.com to make my own tree and facilitate discussion" and thinks its an original and ingenious idea. And for every sincere post, there are two other joke posts. Any time I see a "war-tools.com" link, I just completely ignore the content of the post. Reading it would require me to invest time and energy into reviewing something with a 75% chance of being a joke post or so poorly designed that you have to wonder how/if they got out of elementary math.

I understand there are all kinds of people who come with ideas and post trees. No one ever said it was original or ingenious.

As far as the design of my trees, there is 0 math involved. If you had read ANY of what I originally posted instead of immediately attempting to derail the thread, you would have known that. I didn't adjust numbers. I didn't re-work core mechanics. I provided utility and choice in the trees. NOT damage. Your attitude towards this thread has been very negative, and is a reflection of the worst parts of the terrible community that wow consists of.

Also, if you had read my original post, you'd know that I have canceled my account and CANT post on the wow forums, else I wouldn't be wasting my time here. I really didn't care for the discussion here as much as I wanted to have someone either re-post, or link this thread on the wow forums. I've clearly achieved neither of these goals.

You say you like the talent trees as they are, but they have room for improvement. Well this is aimed at being that improvement, and thus is worth a look.

If you don't want to review my trees then fine, don't. Does reviewing it accomplish anything? Probably not. The whole idea is to have a discussion. To have fun talking about something we enjoy. To think of ways we would improve thinks if we had a say. It's an exercise, not a mandate. If you don't want to participate fine, but don't junk up my thread spewing this crap about math and it not having an impact. It's not supposed to have an impact, it's supposed to be for fun. As I said, I know the specs work as is, but here are actual ideas on how to reduce the amount of 'room for improvement.'

[gherkin]

I know there was no math involved in your post, but like I said - war-tools.com and I immediately dismiss the post for several reasons, numbers being wrong only being one of those reasons. I know you can't post on the wow-forums, and I don't know how you thing I believe otherwise - I indicated that you would have a hard time finding someone to do what you asked, and indeed this is the case.

You also indicate that it's supposed to be for fun. Where in your original post does it say this? CTRL-F 'fun' = Health Funnel is the only occurance of these letters. You say "Do this, do that, review this, post it over here, me me me" - how am I supposed to take this as anything other than yet another person thinking they can solve the worlds problems and demanding someone does something for them? I'm sorry you feel differently, but this post was basically a cookie-cutter from every other post most people just ignore or flame.

Also, I did review your post and give comprehensive information. You should have kept reading.

[tniswong]

Affliction - You just changed the order around and I see no improvement whatsoever. You spoke of "direction", but I still don't see any. Just a spec that bases itself around fixing everything that was broken in 3.3 (multitarget curses, Corruption refresh, execute clipping). No optional room to take anything fun. Lastly, you force us to take 3 points in +fire damage in order to reach Shadow and Flame - completely mandatory for an Affliction build. Fel Flame is not worth buffing in my opinion.

I counter that with this quote from the original post:

My main focus was on PvP for Destro and lower Demonology, though I took a crack at all three trees.

I had 3 major goals in creating these trees.

1. Create subspecs attractive in each tree so that players don't feel pigeonholed into a specific subspec.
2. Create choices and variation on the way down a tree, without "requiring" more than 31 points per tree.
3. Give each spec a niche besides just the way they deal damage

I had trouble with goal 3 on the affliction tree so more input is welcome, but I feel destro/demo are pretty good. Aff still needs a lot more work.

But, you've got a point about the extra 3 points needed to get S&F from an Aff PvE perspective. I added Fel Flame to Imp Searing Pain because the talent in itself was lackluster. My intent was for Searing Pain to be a PvP nuke (as it already is) for affliction and demo. I agree that it leaves little choice on T1, how would you suggest changing it? Maybe taking the 5% crit buff from S&F, tagging it to Imp Immolate, and changing it to also be applied by UA since they're mutually exclusive?

Demonology - You force me to take stamina or summon pet faster talents to get to tier 3 - I need neither of these in PVE, but it seems ok for PVP. Tier 3 requires 3 points be spent in something optional, but nothing feels worth taking. Improved Soul Link is OP beyond measure and in the event that you actually take it will kill your demon faster than you can blink. Improved Demonic Circle is also OP, considering Demo is the only spec with a defensive cooldown (meta). Last few points are forced to spend on strange talents I don't want in order to get Meta. Very last point is just floating - I have nothing to finish off with 1 point and nothing is worth taking for 1 point. Summary: Way way too many optional talents, and things that require 3 talent points should only take 2.

Lower Demo has always been fairly lackluster from a PvE perspective. Please notice the buff to Master Summoner. (After you summon any demon, it's damaged is increased by 15/30% for 20sec). This goes into line the devs view that they want all pets to be used. This also provides a disincentive to killing pets in pvp.

You didn't read Imp Soul Link right. It REDUCES damage the pet takes by 100%. Not increases Soul Link's effectiveness by 100%. Basically turns Soul Link into true mitigation rather than transference. Imp Demo Circle brings the CD in line with Mages Blink. Blink is 15sec cooldown, Dem Circle is 30sec. After the talent, the cd is 20sec, add the glyph and its 16 sec. Mages have just as many if not more defensive cooldowns, so I just disagree with you there. The idea is to give us a spec that feels "slippery."

I also added Searing Pain to some of the procs so that it's viable to use as a nuke in pvp.

What talents don't you want? And the 3pt talents, are already 3pts on beta.

Destruction - You didn't solve anything. I have to take every possible PVE talent (even the optional ones!) to make the spec work and there is nothing else worth taking. Outside the tree I am left with 5 points to spend on keeping my pet alive (strange) or stamina or optional utility I don't feel I need.

Overall, you gave me more talent points to spend on things but I don't feel like anything was worth spending the points on. Please keep in mind that I am thinking of this from a non-dps focused mentality, where defensive cooldowns or stuns and whatnot are useful.

The idea wasn't to make you choose on DPS talents, but rather Utility talents. Do I want Nether Protection, or Empowered Imp, or Imp Shadowflame? Or maybe Aftermath? There's plenty of choices.

I think the problem is you're thinking from an only pve perspective where damage and buffing the raid is all that matters, everything else is "not worth taking"

Ever think about, hey maybe while questing It'd be nice to have this, and actually be able to afford it instead of being forced to respec since you didn't take it because you took all dps talents?

Good feedback though. I'd like to see your ideas on affliction, as that's my worst area. Never played it much, personally despised the spec, so that's why it was uninspired.

[kerwyn]

I'm pretty sure you don't 'get' the point of these trees. There are not supposed to be spec abilities (CoEx, shadowburn) available before 11 points. So, out of reach of everything else. This is the point.

Swapping inferno and cremation ADDED points to demonology for no reason.
You removed the damage cap from Burning Embers. This makes it ludicrously overpowered.

Honestly, the warlock trees right now are fine.

[tniswong]

I'm pretty sure you don't 'get' the point of these trees. There are not supposed to be spec abilities (CoEx, shadowburn) available before 11 points. So, out of reach of everything else. This is the point.

Swapping inferno and cremation ADDED points to demonology for no reason.
You removed the damage cap from Burning Embers. This makes it ludicrously overpowered.

Honestly, the warlock trees right now are fine.

I didn't change burning embers at all. I made this tree before the latest patch that added the damage cap.

The point behind switching inferno and cremation is the fact that inferno is a waste of a point for pvp. There's no real reason they were linked to hand of guldan. It's just clunky and stupid.

As far as moving the special abilities I did this to actually have something compete with lower demo for pvp. There's no viable aternative right now. And for demo pvp have lower aff attractive enough to compete with lower destro. Right now the choices are very clear. I'm trying to male them actual choices

[Deleted]

I'm pretty sure you don't 'get' the point of these trees. There are not supposed to be spec abilities (CoEx, shadowburn) available before 11 points. So, out of reach of everything else. This is the point.

Swapping inferno and cremation ADDED points to demonology for no reason.
You removed the damage cap from Burning Embers. This makes it ludicrously overpowered.

Honestly, the warlock trees right now are fine.

If you cant see things wrong with demo and afflic you are not looking hard enough, not suggesting they are broken but some talents need to be fixed (ie molten core)

[ComputerNerd]

I don't normally think much of the talent tree "revamps" offered, largely because they try to rewrite the class, usually into a melee dps or a tank.
Though I will agree your suggestions are a lot more constructive, in the adaption of what we already have.

Siphon Life should be a consistent heal, it should not be a 50% chance, so I agree with that idea, but should not require talent points to make it so, only increasing the heal amount.
CoEx should not be moved making accessible to other specs.
Aura of Foreboding should not be rooting prior to a stun, since that is largely removing the option to escape from it. A snare or slowing effect is sufficient.
Demonic Aegis is fine where it is, if anything imo should be in tier 1. The healing effect is useful for countering life-taps, for all 3 specs. The armor is useful for pvp, or soloing physical damage dealers/drain tanking.
Demonic Circle Summon should not have a cast time imo, allowing proper placement on the move, but perhaps triggering a short cooldown on the teleport after being placed.
You are just turning shadowflame back exactly into what it was a little while ago, and that was deemed too good.
It still should not need a glyph to make it useful I agree, though neither should it be through a talent.

[Imnick]

problem I have with the beta Demo Tree, is that it feels less Minion focused.

The minion tree is minion focused?
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