Feral Suggestion, 4 Talent Trees.

[Nikoll]

I think you should just be happy you have 4 different ways to spec. The second you give Druids a 4th free everyone will want a 4th tree. You'll see a. Shaman tanking tree, a paldin caster tree, a preizt holy dps tree. If one class gets 4, all vet 4. Is that really somehing you want to see implemented into the game?

[Lionhearte0]

I think you should just be happy you have 4 different ways to spec. The second you give Druids a 4th free everyone will want a 4th tree. You'll see a. Shaman tanking tree, a paldin caster tree, a preizt holy dps tree. If one class gets 4, all vet 4. Is that really somehing you want to see implemented into the game?

I don't think that necessarily has to happen, plenty of classes have exclusives that others don't. Death Knights start at lvl 55, some classes have class mounts, even with the new play mechanics that Shadow Priests get with the orbs, it doesn't mean all classes should get them.

[dmx87212]

and how would you make 4 talent trees? How would you balance it. There has been proof that you can make a hybrid build; but it would fail miserably. You talent suggests miss vital talents to bears or to cats. YOU CANNOT SUCCEED.

[Raugnaut]

In the resto tree there are 4 mandatory talents; HoTW, NSS/MSS/ and perseverance. They increase survivability considerably.
The 4 mandatory talents in the resto tree (NSS/MSS/perseverance/HoTW) are necessary.

I really dont see why you say that they are neccessary. Let me see..
NSS - useless, just a filler. needed for MSS
MSS- 4% extra threat. ok, but its about 1.3% threat every point... Blame NSS
HotW- yea, 100% needed. cant argue there
Perserverence- 6% reduced damage from spells... decent, but, not needed. there will be fights where the damage is physical, making this useless, and other fights where the magical damage isnt very high. Only on 10% of the total fights will this actually be noticable.

Now, let me see the other talents in the feral tree that we can possibly get.
KotJ - 15% threat boost over 10 secs, 1 min cd, take 10% extra damage for that duration. if used every time possible over a 5 min fight, it equals into maybe 2-3% total threat. plus maybe 4-5% extra damage taken. One could also dodge every attack during that 10 secs, negating the extra damage.
But, if we look just when its poped, thats 15% over 10 seconds. Suppose that youve been doing a good job, but a version of BL is popped, and the Arms/Fury warrior is starting to ride your threats ass. pop Enrage, start facerolling harder, and the warrior will probably not pull aggro.

Now, Primal Madness, 12 extra rage whenever Berserk or Enrage is popped. Possible useless if you are sitting at 80 rage when you use Enrage, or 100 when you hit berserk, but, with the threat normalization, its possible that one will be around 50 rage throughout the fight. Now, we go with the earlier hypothetical situatuation, Warrior during Bloodlust approaching you on threat. You start facerolling, at 50 rage. Enrage gives you 70 rage. Now, lets assume a loss of 10 rage every second due to spammage of abilities and Maul usage. after 7 seconds, you have to stop spamming maul. so, thats 1 Maul you couldnt use, plus low rage for the remaining 3 secs.. The warrior might not have pulled aggro, but, suppose he hit the 100 rage mark, and activated Inner Rage. He is arms, uses Deadly Calm. So, thats 50% extra damage (or 15%) during those 10 seconds. he pulls aggro, is eaten, and you lost a dps. You wipe due to the enrage.

Now, with Primal Madness, you can spam everything for 8 seconds. Now, you cant use Maul, but you have 1 extra sec where you can faceroll. the Chances of the War pulling is lower, but not by much.
Now, lets say you use Berserk AND Enrage. Mangle is being used every other button push, Lacerate is being stacked with Mangle Usage and you can get in an extra Maul, since it takes 9 secs for you to go to 0 rage. The Warrior didnt pull during Deadly calm, you keep a dps, boss is downed with 5 secs till enrage.

So, by skipping everything in Resto BUT HotW, and putting 5 points in KotJ/PM, you downed H Sinestra, and got Realm First kill! The 4% threat from MSS ISNT needed if you know what you are doing, BUT, the 15% extra damage from KotJ is a VERY good situational utility that CAN be needed. Perserverence is HIGHLY situational as well, and it possible will go unnoticed. I will admit that the 2 points in PM may not be needed, but, one can never know.

So, saying that all the resto talents are necessary, MANDATORY for a bear spec is wrong. I, myself, raid in a strange spec on live, and do perfectly fine without the present MSS, or even full points in Naturalist. 4% extra threat will go unnoticed if you are a good tank. 15%extra over 10 seconds, though, can be a raid saver when properly used.

---------- Post added 2010-09-26 at 02:47 PM ----------

Also, OT, I couldnt see the talents from OPs links. came up blank. However I would like to ask, do you have Nuturing Instinct? For Feral dps, that is a MUST have talent for serious progression. I predict that, in Cata, Feral dps will be responisble for 60-80% of thier healing on progression.

Also, in Cata, I predict that the prefered stats for Feral Tanks will be Agility->Dodge->Crit->Stamina. Anyone stacking Stamina will be held as Ultra Nub, and the best benefits will be stacking agility, reforging Haste into Dodge/Crit, enchanting Dodge/Crit/Agi, with the occasional purple/green +stam/other stat gem. Maybe throw in some Mastery for bigger blocks.

[snuzzle]

Really terrible idea IMO. For starters, if they give us four trees, that would mean they'd have to make four tier sets too, one each for cat, bear, resto, and balance. And that will never happen.

We're lucky that we're the only class in the game who can perform all four roles (melee dps, ranged dps, tank, heal) and perform them very well. Bear and cat have such great synergy already, there's really no reason to split them aside from aesthetics.

Besides, it seems like the reason you support this is you seem to think (wrongly) that our DPS is being held back due to us also having tanking talents in the tree. We're a hybrid, and our DPS is always going to be held back because of that as long as Blizzard keeps following their current design philosophy, whether we have two talent trees or ten.

[dmx87212]

I really dont see why you say that they are neccessary. Let me see..
NSS - useless, just a filler. needed for MSS
MSS- 4% extra threat. ok, but its about 1.3% threat every point... Blame NSS
HotW- yea, 100% needed. cant argue there
Perserverence- 6% reduced damage from spells... decent, but, not needed. there will be fights where the damage is physical, making this useless, and other fights where the magical damage isnt very high. Only on 10% of the total fights will this actually be noticable.

Now, let me see the other talents in the feral tree that we can possibly get.
KotJ - 15% threat boost over 10 secs, 1 min cd, take 10% extra damage for that duration. if used every time possible over a 5 min fight, it equals into maybe 2-3% total threat. plus maybe 4-5% extra damage taken. One could also dodge every attack during that 10 secs, negating the extra damage.
But, if we look just when its poped, thats 15% over 10 seconds. Suppose that youve been doing a good job, but a version of BL is popped, and the Arms/Fury warrior is starting to ride your threats ass. pop Enrage, start facerolling harder, and the warrior will probably not pull aggro.

Now, Primal Madness, 12 extra rage whenever Berserk or Enrage is popped. Possible useless if you are sitting at 80 rage when you use Enrage, or 100 when you hit berserk, but, with the threat normalization, its possible that one will be around 50 rage throughout the fight. Now, we go with the earlier hypothetical situatuation, Warrior during Bloodlust approaching you on threat. You start facerolling, at 50 rage. Enrage gives you 70 rage. Now, lets assume a loss of 10 rage every second due to spammage of abilities and Maul usage. after 7 seconds, you have to stop spamming maul. so, thats 1 Maul you couldnt use, plus low rage for the remaining 3 secs.. The warrior might not have pulled aggro, but, suppose he hit the 100 rage mark, and activated Inner Rage. He is arms, uses Deadly Calm. So, thats 50% extra damage (or 15%) during those 10 seconds. he pulls aggro, is eaten, and you lost a dps. You wipe due to the enrage.

Now, with Primal Madness, you can spam everything for 8 seconds. Now, you cant use Maul, but you have 1 extra sec where you can faceroll. the Chances of the War pulling is lower, but not by much.
Now, lets say you use Berserk AND Enrage. Mangle is being used every other button push, Lacerate is being stacked with Mangle Usage and you can get in an extra Maul, since it takes 9 secs for you to go to 0 rage. The Warrior didnt pull during Deadly calm, you keep a dps, boss is downed with 5 secs till enrage.

So, by skipping everything in Resto BUT HotW, and putting 5 points in KotJ/PM, you downed H Sinestra, and got Realm First kill! The 4% threat from MSS ISNT needed if you know what you are doing, BUT, the 15% extra damage from KotJ is a VERY good situational utility that CAN be needed. Perserverence is HIGHLY situational as well, and it possible will go unnoticed. I will admit that the 2 points in PM may not be needed, but, one can never know.

So, saying that all the resto talents are necessary, MANDATORY for a bear spec is wrong. I, myself, raid in a strange spec on live, and do perfectly fine without the present MSS, or even full points in Naturalist. 4% extra threat will go unnoticed if you are a good tank. 15%extra over 10 seconds, though, can be a raid saver when properly used.

NSS/MSS aren't completely mandatory but its essentially 4% free threat for 3 points. It also leads up to perseverance which reduces ALL magic damage by 6%. With this talent, we take 18% less damage from magic (natural reaction + perseverance). When you look at it that way, it looks fairly nice. For example Blizzard was saying that paladins were taking a lot more damage on the PTR then normal cause they were missing Sanctuary (-10% damage taken). Well this is your miniature sanctuary for spells. its good.

KotJ sucks. Congrats you do 2-3% more threat but you take more damage. For 3 talent points you can get NSS/MSS and do 4% more threat without taking any additional damage! For a tank, tradeoffs with survivability are NOT worth it. Maybe you are talking about pugs, but in any raid I know of, they announce when they are going to BL. Its a burn phase not just a random "HAI GUYZ U GOTZ A BL NOW".

Primal Madness may look nice as +12 rage per enrage.. but its really 1 rage per 5 seconds (12 rage/60s cooldown). You know how much warriors complain about anger management, which is 1 rage per 3 seconds (i believe).

For the warrior to pop a cooldown when they are riding your threat... they deserve to die. Its not your fault, they should manage threat. Also a warrior cannot use Inner Rage and Deadly Calm at the same time. If you are going to use warriors as an example, know their mechanics! Also, you have to factor in your random Mangles. The 30% chance on Lacerate ticks is a constant thing. So you should be getting it quite often. Maul isn't spammable; it has a three second cooldown.

Maybe NSS/MSS isnt worth it, but 4% total threat is much much better then 15% more damage on a 16% uptime. Also during that time period you are taking more damage. You aren't helping your raid, you are hurting it. Taking more damage=more healer stress. You keep mentioning 15% more damage dealt; you take an additional 10% damage. And perseverance is survivability. which is good.

Maybe your build is unorthodox. But when I make a bear build, I look for threat, and survivability. I dont sacrifice to do the other better.





Also @op Nurturing Instincts is completely worthless for a bear. So you hurt you bear to gain for cat. Not a good sign of a hybrid build.

[bacevicius]

wait can comeone tell me our feral mastery is primal madness, in its description is sounds like bear stuff, i didnt see 8 more secs on berzerk so I am wondering how is that gonna halep kitty mastery diud they change it

[Richmond]

No.

I've thought about it alot too, but at the end of the day, i actually like it as it is. I'll be a good tank that can switch forms between tank swaps and do OK dps, far from great but if i get the rotation right then i could be average.

If you split the tree's, you'd end up being a good tank and hit like a wet noodle in cat form or awesome dps but a rubbish tank when switching to bear form.

I for one like the fact that i can pop bear form when a pull goes wrong

[Lionhearte0]

Also, OT, I couldnt see the talents from OPs links. came up blank. However I would like to ask, do you have Nuturing Instinct? For Feral dps, that is a MUST have talent for serious progression. I predict that, in Cata, Feral dps will be responisble for 60-80% of thier healing on progression.

The links are blank because of the new build that got deployed a few days ago.

Really terrible idea IMO. For starters, if they give us four trees, that would mean they'd have to make four tier sets too, one each for cat, bear, resto, and balance. And that will never happen.

Besides, it seems like the reason you support this is you seem to think (wrongly) that our DPS is being held back due to us also having tanking talents in the tree. We're a hybrid, and our DPS is always going to be held back because of that as long as Blizzard keeps following their current design philosophy, whether we have two talent trees or ten.

1) If they were that lazy, they wouldn't have to give us a fourth set. We'd gain the effects of the opposite form but it would remain useless if we didn't have the shared talents.
2) It's not difficult making a new tier set. WoW has thousands upon thousands of items. Making 5 more pieces is not hard.
3) You are right to begin with, I am concerned for my favorite class. But you're looking at it from the wrong angle, I do believe Blizzard should change their philosophy on how our class should play. They claimed to have dropped the "Jack of All Trades, Master of None" design awhile ago, but they still hold us back because of our ability to jump right into DPS'ing or Tanking, which I believe is utter bull. Paladins, Death Knights, and Warriors are not held in the same regard as ferals, yet we go through the exact same process:
Assuming any Druid/DK/Warrior/Pally is going from DPS to Tanking;
- We change specs from our DPS spec to our Tank spec.
- We change into our Tank gear (serious bears are not tanking in DPS gear, they likely have a few modified pieces that give tanking enchants/gems, if not all gear.. The same with any of these classes)
- We change forms/stances/presences/turn on RF

Honestly, the only thing making Ferals a true hybrid to this day is the fact that our trees are shared (as well as our Tier), and since the philosophy of "jack of all, master of none" didn't work in pre-BC, it shouldn't even be hindering us today by holding back our DPS, regardless if it's because of our shared tree - Blizzard, and other competitive players (I'm looking at you, rogues) - still feel the need to nerf us down because of the lame excuse "you can dps in cat and tank in bear hurr durr".

[dmx87212]

they have never given the excuse "you need a nerf cause you can tank and dps in the same tree". EVER. Because in order to tank well, or to dps meaningfully you need to spec differently. There is no possible hybrid build that would be remotely successful in either case

[Lionhearte0]

they have never given the excuse "you need a nerf cause you can tank and dps in the same tree". EVER. Because in order to tank well, or to dps meaningfully you need to spec differently. There is no possible hybrid build that would be remotely successful in either case

Exactly my point, they have never said it directly, but there is a synergy that exists between cats and bears that holds us back from our full potential. Cats can top meters, it requires a great deal of skill and gear, but it can be done. Bears are completely viable, it's a different play style but they can tank all the content in Wrath without problem.

My suggestion isn't to "nerf" that, and it certainly wouldn't overpower us. I'm looking at things in the long run; Blizzard wants to keep the trees this small from now on, adjusting and possibly removing/adding a few talents in future expansions. If they split the feral tree in two, it'll provide more room for growth for both specs, instead of filling it up every space with a talent, and also giving us more options to choose from, instead of a cookie-cutter build, which they've advertised as wanting to get rid of with their new design for talents. With the way the feral tree is now, it's too early to tell how we do in DPS/tanking, but assuming it works perfectly fine- then they've half-assed their job and basically abandoned feral for their design philosophy. If it doesn't work, the more reason to change the way they do it.

Either way, something is wrong.

[exochaft]

they have never given the excuse "you need a nerf cause you can tank and dps in the same tree". EVER. Because in order to tank well, or to dps meaningfully you need to spec differently. There is no possible hybrid build that would be remotely successful in either case

Eh, not exactly true, it happened back in TBC. The PvP crowd probably complained more than the PvE crowd, but there was an outcry from both sides. Nowadays, the talent trees, and the game itself, are nothing but shadows of what they were back then. However, such things, when they existed, lead to very bad things that we don't want repeated. I'm just going to leave it at that since most people reading these forums know where this is headed.

Back to the OP: I think I vaguely remember what your specs had, since they're wiped now, I have to go on memory. I'm fairly certain that both specs skimped on survival talents, for both bear and kitty. I'd advise those that read feral threads and nothing else to venture over and read the healer threads... because it'll let you in on something that some of us beta testers are finding out. Healers need all the help they can get... this isn't kiddy playtime in 30% ICC buff playland where you can sit in ghosts and soak damage just because you don't want to move... even when you're going to get hit by mechanics you can't avoid, there's a high possibility of death if you cannot help your healer out. SI and Nurturing Instinct are highly advisable if you want to prolong your life as a kitty DPS... and for tanks, I'm struggling to remember a boss fight so far in beta that hasn't involved magic damage (while it may not always be some big burst damage, every little bit helps), so Perseverance is getting more mileage than estimated.

[dmx87212]

Eh, not exactly true, it happened back in TBC. The PvP crowd probably complained more than the PvE crowd, but there was an outcry from both sides. Nowadays, the talent trees, and the game itself, are nothing but shadows of what they were back then. However, such things, when they existed, lead to very bad things that we don't want repeated. I'm just going to leave it at that since most people reading these forums know where this is headed.

true true point taken. TBC was an entirely different mind set though. Most complaints were about resto (in pvp at least).

Exactly my point, they have never said it directly, but there is a synergy that exists between cats and bears that holds us back from our full potential. Cats can top meters, it requires a great deal of skill and gear, but it can be done. Bears are completely viable, it's a different play style but they can tank all the content in Wrath without problem.

My suggestion isn't to "nerf" that, and it certainly wouldn't overpower us. I'm looking at things in the long run; Blizzard wants to keep the trees this small from now on, adjusting and possibly removing/adding a few talents in future expansions. If they split the feral tree in two, it'll provide more room for growth for both specs, instead of filling it up every space with a talent, and also giving us more options to choose from, instead of a cookie-cutter build, which they've advertised as wanting to get rid of with their new design for talents. With the way the feral tree is now, it's too early to tell how we do in DPS/tanking, but assuming it works perfectly fine- then they've half-assed their job and basically abandoned feral for their design philosophy. If it doesn't work, the more reason to change the way they do it.

Either way, something is wrong.

But this thing is... there is no "full" potential that blizzard wants to design for us. we are a hybrid tree. and it works. death knights dual dps/tank trees failed because they just wouldnt work. We have lasted for 3 expansions. You don't fix what isnt broken.

[Lionhearte0]

But this thing is... there is no "full" potential that blizzard wants to design for us. we are a hybrid tree. and it works. death knights dual dps/tank trees failed because they just wouldnt work. We have lasted for 3 expansions. You don't fix what isnt broken.

I love that quote, it gets thrown around a lot. What I'm suggesting isn't meant to necessarily "fix" anything, but provide more breathing room for Blizzard, and give us the opportunity to have more "fun" talents like what was planned, instead of a cookie-cutter build that we're headed back to.

Back to the OP: I think I vaguely remember what your specs had, since they're wiped now, I have to go on memory. I'm fairly certain that both specs skimped on survival talents, for both bear and kitty. I'd advise those that read feral threads and nothing else to venture over and read the healer threads... because it'll let you in on something that some of us beta testers are finding out. Healers need all the help they can get... this isn't kiddy playtime in 30% ICC buff playland where you can sit in ghosts and soak damage just because you don't want to move... even when you're going to get hit by mechanics you can't avoid, there's a high possibility of death if you cannot help your healer out. SI and Nurturing Instinct are highly advisable if you want to prolong your life as a kitty DPS... and for tanks, I'm struggling to remember a boss fight so far in beta that hasn't involved magic damage (while it may not always be some big burst damage, every little bit helps), so Perseverance is getting more mileage than estimated.

Here's an updated link for Cat(I'll update the original post with Bear spec tomorrow, too tired atm):
http://wowtal.com/#k=-INil0B8P.a2y.druid
The last build made a change in the Resto tree to remove the bonus damage to Shred from BotG, and this essentially gives us 4 points at the very most to spend wherever we choose. Note, I said at the very most, since another point would be preferred by some in Furor 3/3, though it isn't completely necessary (my current build on live doesn't even have full points in it). But, assuming we do have the 4 points, there are only so many options to put them in. The first 2 would likely go in Feral Aggression, which should be in most builds anyway - the only reason I left it out was to get the bare minimum of 31 points in Feral tree to start spending in Resto.

The last two points are tricky, since, although we have 5 whole talents to choose from - they're either tanking or PvP based. Since Resto and Balance have no talents that benefit melee at all, no point in spending in them unless you got some weird arena build you're working with. But anyways;
Natural Reaction (2 points): Pure tanking talent, benefits cats in zero ways whatsoever.
Pulverize (1 point): Tanking ability. I believe it's only usable in Bear form anyways.
Thick Hide (3 points): Survivability talent, only able to spend 2 points in here, giving 7% increase in armor and 4% less chance to be critically hit only - the extra 22% is only available in Bear form.
Infected Wounds (2 points): A PvP talent, or utility if you will. Possibly useful in some situations, but not entirely worth it.
Brutal Impact (2 points): A PvP talent, grabbing this for the +1 sec stun duration for pounce in a raid environment isn't exactly useful.

So, our options really are to throw a point to cap out Furor and to fling that last point wherever we want, possible in Infected wounds.

To recap: All I'm merely suggesting is more room for Blizzard to expand our trees beyond the limited range we're given, allowing us to pick fun talents that we have been lacking for years now.

[dmx87212]

it would still require additional work and designing new talents. and blizzard likes the way feral is now. the whole reason i said the quote (which is indeed awesome) is because they are satisfied and do not want to fix it; for once they aren't trying to fix what isnt broken.

Blizzard, unfortunately, doesn't care enough about diversity to split the talent trees into 2. Note that this is not a complaint about Blizzard its just the grim truth