Eternal Glory Prot PoV

[Mmrdkm]

as it stands this is a great talent, for Holy, not fro prot, and ret palies can create their own thread :P, but on to the subject at chance as it stands from a Prot PoV this is lack luster. It will be skipped in favor of Divinity since IT is a much more solid survival talent, and has no waste to it, as in no threat loss over SotR / Inq, but how anout if it read like this.

Eternal Glory your SotR / WoG has a chance to make your next WoG perform as if it had 3HoPo.

You might wonder, why this wording? because this way the HoPo will be consumed, yet the chance for a free heal remains, and it doesnt change its functionality for holy either making it an attractive talent for prot as well instead of a waste of tree space, also there would be a choice now between Divinity and EG, because picking up EG you would feel tempted to pick up GbtL.

Imagine this tree http://wowtal.com/#k=fY9key_m.a21.paladin with those changes.

discuss.

[Lumidar]

the whole point is to have the CHOICE of spending your HoPo on an Offensive skill (SotR) or a Defensive Skill (WoG) and only WoG gives you a small chance to regain your HoPo which then you can use to do a quick SotR.

It is useful, and I will be using it.

[Ozmademos]

Eternal Glory your SotR / WoG has a chance to make your next WoG perform as if it had 3HoPo.

You might wonder, why this wording? because this way the HoPo will be consumed, yet the chance for a free heal remains, and it doesnt change its functionality for holy either making it an attractive talent for prot as well instead of a waste of tree space, also there would be a choice now between Divinity and EG, because picking up EG you would feel tempted to pick up GbtL.

I'm not totally sure what you're changing in this wording, since Eternal Glory stands to allow the Prot Paladin to get a free WoG without consuming the Holy Power, which then will be used for either Inq or SotR. It sounds like you still want the Paladin's WoG to consume the Holy Power, but then give you an additional WoG at no cost right after that; unless, you mean SotR and Inq (not WoG) will consume the Holy Power but provide a free WoG right after that.

Eternal Glory and GbtL are excellent talents together, and with WoG proc'ing Holy Shield... well... it's just gone from good to even better.

[Mmrdkm]

I'm not totally sure what you're changing in this wording, since Eternal Glory stands to allow the Prot Paladin to get a free WoG without consuming the Holy Power, which then will be used for either Inq or SotR. It sounds like you still want the Paladin's WoG to consume the Holy Power, but then give you an additional WoG at no cost right after that; unless, you mean SotR and Inq (not WoG) will consume the Holy Power but provide a free WoG right after that.

Eternal Glory and GbtL are excellent talents together, and with WoG proc'ing Holy Shield... well... it's just gone from good to even better.

EG was ment as a Holy talent with some use for the other specs. Ghost crawler has stated we will not get another way to get HoPo, in the protection tree, hence in his design HoPo must be consumed. this way you get a chance on SotR or WoG to get one more wog. From prot PoV this means either you use the WoG and get another or use SotR get the threat and a chance at a 3HoPo WoG without the actual HoPo, yet u still have to build HoPo for the next SotR/Inq without being able to stack both of them at the same time, since he stated blizz won't allow for that.

clear?

[Ozmademos]

clear?

That is a little more clear, but two consecutive WoG doesnt seem worthwhile, since (I can only assume, but have no exact proof to back up this claim) they'll almost certainly not stack for the GbtL mitigation buff, and the heals arent strong enough (so I hear from people, but admit I have no direct experience of) to be worth trying to get more of for Prot.

And, a chance on SotR to get a WoG is essentially what the talent does now but in a weaker reversed way. As the talent exists now, you get a chance on WoG to get a SotR or Inq or another WoG (however the Paladin chooses).

[Mmrdkm]

That is a little more clear, but two consecutive WoG doesnt seem worthwhile, since (I can only assume, but have no exact proof to back up this claim) they'll almost certainly not stack for the GbtL mitigation buff, and the heals arent strong enough (so I hear from people, but admit I have no direct experience of) to be worth trying to get more of for Prot.

And, a chance on SotR to get a WoG is essentially what the talent does now but in a weaker reversed way. As the talent exists now, you get a chance on WoG to get a SotR or Inq or another WoG (however the Paladin chooses).

you are not getting it, if you pay any attention to the forums, and by that i mean this one, ptr, maintankadin, etc, WoG heal is soooooo weak no one would use it over a SotR/Inq, specially with the threat/healing enviroment we will face. But if we were to use SotR (a prot exclusive ability) and it procs, then you get the WoG heal and you are not wasting your HoPo, and it still complies with the design goal they have for prot regarding HoPo generation, ie you still need to go through the 13.5 sec alloted time to keep up HS, without overlaping SotR and SotR.

[Ozmademos]

It would seem like we're saying the same thing though...

I said,

the heals arent strong enough (so I hear from people, but admit I have no direct experience of) to be worth trying to get more of for Prot.

and you said,

WoG heal is soooooo weak no one would use it over a SotR/Inq, specially with the threat/healing enviroment we will face.

Basically, we're agreeing that using up your Holy Power on a WoG isnt really going to be worth it. Unless, perhaps, you are far enough ahead in threat to afford the chance or time to ramp up more Holy Power.

So, it seems that getting a free WoG after a SotR or even an Inq or WoG still wont seem worth it in my opinion.

[Lyese]

There will be times when you're tanking a boss or bigger add that isn't being dps'd (4HM, FLK, Blood Princes, PP, A'lar, Kael'Thas, Lady Vashj, Azgalor, Supremus, Anub'arak, Iron Council just to name a few), eating cleaves (Mother Shazz, Marrowgar, Bloodboil), waiting for a transitory phase (Lich King, Sindragosa, Sapphiron, etc.)...

Tanking isn't just about spanking the thing that's in front of you. Since it will double dip into Divinity, scale with AP (so I hear), and functions great with Last Word as an emergency cd, not to mention GbtL on phases where you'll lose HoPo anyway, I see many uses for this talent and its synergies. Look at the big picture.

[ZeroEdgeir]

WoG is already been tweaked, as per GC, to scale off of AP OR Spell Power, whichever is higher.

So, you got full-stack of Vengeance, it will heal a lot more than it does on Beta now. This info was just made news today, so isn't on the Beta yet. It also refreshes/applies Holy Shield, so we don't lose the defensive part of our HoPo skills.

Really, nothing bad here seems to come from it. You seem to be thinking they won't ever make WoG good for any role but Holy, when we still know the number balancing pass has NOT been made, once it IS done, then start saying the sky is falling.

[Ozmademos]

I think the main benefit to WoG for Prot is when the Paladin is at/near full health. Then, GbtL turns what would be a heal into a mitigation ability. I don't think it's intended to be used regularly for the Paladin to heal themselves. It's almost a catch-22 ability, but it's mitigation function does make it significantly useful to a Paladin at/near full health.

As the talents are now, they dont seem to want to penalize the Prot Pally for using WoG, either for mitigation at/near full health or for significant emergencies.

[Mmrdkm]

I think the main benefit to WoG for Prot is when the Paladin is at/near full health. Then, GbtL turns what would be a heal into a mitigation ability. I don't think it's intended to be used regularly for the Paladin to heal themselves. It's almost a catch-22 ability, but it's mitigation function does make it significantly useful to a Paladin at/near full health.

As the talents are now, they dont seem to want to penalize the Prot Pally for using WoG, either for mitigation at/near full health or for significant emergencies.

i will explain it to you again, the difference is that with this mechaninc instead of the 30% chance of WoG not to consume HoPo is that you get to use your SotR move to keep threat going AND get a chance to get a free WoG without loosing threat, thats it, but if you cant see it, then it/s not worth explaining this again.

[Lumidar]

that seems about right Nymrohd but i might take 2 out of Seals of the Pure and 1 out of Divine Guardian and put those 3 in Rule of Law since we have SHIT for crit.

[Talen]

I'm not totally sure what you're changing in this wording, since Eternal Glory stands to allow the Prot Paladin to get a free WoG without consuming the Holy Power, which then will be used for either Inq or SotR. It sounds like you still want the Paladin's WoG to consume the Holy Power, but then give you an additional WoG at no cost right after that; unless, you mean SotR and Inq (not WoG) will consume the Holy Power but provide a free WoG right after that.

Eternal Glory and GbtL are excellent talents together, and with WoG proc'ing Holy Shield... well... it's just gone from good to even better.

As it stands, EG and GbtL are awful talents for Prot.

First Eternal Glory - yes, you can get a "free" WoG out of it. However, you miss the central limitation....you need to activate WoG to get the proc. Which means you'll have to spend 3 HP or whatever and deliberately give up on your ShoR or Inq to get that WoG. Yes, it'll be great when it procs....but as a tank, are you really going to sacrifice your threat on the hope that EG will proc? Esepecially on a weak heal? Yes...weak. One 10k or 15k heal every 15s or so isn't a game changer, isn't really going to add to survivability and likely won't be worth the sacrifice of a SHoR.

As for GbtL...it increases WoGs healing power on yourself. Great. Read above for why this is normally irrelavant....As for the Shield, it is based on overhealing. How often will you be at full health, or even near it while tanking? Not very often, especially given Blizzards new paradigm where healers can't and shouldn't top tanks off to full every couple of seconds.

EG can be fixed in several ways. One way is to make it affect all finishers. Another is to make it a consumed proc. You will know, in advance, that you will have HP available so you can actually make use of WoG.

GbtL however, is no so easily fixed. The shield aspect should be built in baseline to prevent waste of HP but the central problem still remains...WoG will only ever be of marginal use to Ret or Prot unless it is a very strong heal.

EJL

[Nillo]

EG can be fixed in several ways. One way is to make it affect all finishers. Another is to make it a consumed proc. You will know, in advance, that you will have HP available so you can actually make use of WoG.

Something like:
Your Holy Power consuming abilities have a 5/10% chance per Holy Power to make your next Word of Glory cast within X (30?) seconds consume no Holy Power, cannot occur more than once every 15 seconds.

Also there is practically no way to fit in all necessary survivability + thread talents atm while still having the Word of Glory nonsense.

EJL

Would you stop ending your posts with those 3 letters - it's disturbing. (and it obviously doesn't serve any purpose plus there are signatures for that)

[Ozmademos]

i will explain it to you again, the difference is that with this mechaninc instead of the 30% chance of WoG not to consume HoPo is that you get to use your SotR move to keep threat going AND get a chance to get a free WoG without loosing threat, thats it, but if you cant see it, then it/s not worth explaining this again.

And, I'll say again... I believe that I am understanding what you're saying, except that I'm not agreeing with these benefits that you're seeing. On the one hand you're downplaying the benefit of WoG, and on the other hand, you're wanting it to be available for free.

And, SotR isnt the only other ability that has significant help with a Paladin's threat (Inqisition), and it doesnt even really seem like SotR is something to shoot for when first pulling a boss. With it's ramp up time, and the significant mid-fight benefit that the Veng buff will provide it, SotR is probably something to use after threat is established with Inquisition (which only needs one Holy Power to have it's full benefit).

The changes you're suggesting will rob Ret of it's chance at retaining it's Holy Power for Inquisition, since any non-prot Paladin will only have a chance at two consecutive WoG with how you're wording this talent change. I apologize if there's any confusion on my part, but I do believe I understand what you're saying, I just dont agree with it. Sorry.

[Gallahadd]

tbh easy way to fix EG, I've said it here a few times, and suggested it through the suggestions option on the Blizz thing on the PTR, make it a 30% chance for your WoG OR ShoR to return the Hp, that way it's still useful for other specs, they can still get a 30% chance for a free heal, but prot, whose tree it's in, also has a chance for a free threat boost. GC says that they don't want to boost prot's Hp gen because they don't want to get to a stage where we can have Inq and ShoR at the same time, well this will do that, while easing somewhat our current massive freakin lack of Hp.

[Lumidar]

they don't want you doing back to back ShoR.. so that won't happen

[Gallahadd]

myeh, then stick a 6 second CD on ShoR, wouldn't effect normal use, as we need way longer to build up our Hp charges, but if we DID get a EG proc, then we wouldn't be able to ShoR more often than once every six seconds, the same as the Cooldown on Shield Slam.

[Horben1]

The heal may be weak, but the point of using WoG is the absorption on the overhealing. Thus, you use it with a free global, while you are at full health, to create free health and take pressure off your healers. It's been made clear that the idea of this xpac will be to make your healers think about where they focus their work, and their resources will become more limited than they are now. Anything that helps your healers makes the entire encounter more stable. Additionally, it promotes a sense of teamwork more than ever.

I think this talent is awesome and it will be a part of my rotation every time my threat accrual allows it.

[Mmrdkm]

And, I'll say again... I believe that I am understanding what you're saying, except that I'm not agreeing with these benefits that you're seeing. On the one hand you're downplaying the benefit of WoG, and on the other hand, you're wanting it to be available for free.

And, SotR isnt the only other ability that has significant help with a Paladin's threat (Inqisition), and it doesnt even really seem like SotR is something to shoot for when first pulling a boss. With it's ramp up time, and the significant mid-fight benefit that the Veng buff will provide it, SotR is probably something to use after threat is established with Inquisition (which only needs one Holy Power to have it's full benefit).

The changes you're suggesting will rob Ret of it's chance at retaining it's Holy Power for Inquisition, since any non-prot Paladin will only have a chance at two consecutive WoG with how you're wording this talent change. I apologize if there's any confusion on my part, but I do believe I understand what you're saying, I just dont agree with it. Sorry.

....

Inq has the same ramp up time as SotR, and in its current form you dont get a choice either you WoG ang get another for free or you dont. So this change doesnt change anything at all for ret, so it would work just the same. And Inq is used for AoE, since it only affects Holy dmg, and in a boss encounter, if you use Inq over SotR you are BAD.

Also for your benefit here is the link to Inq http://cata.wowhead.com/spell=84963 4 seconds of inquisition is worth crap, so full benefit where?.

Also the way i suggest EG to be implemented doesnt prevent multiple WoG, and Inq for ret lasts 30 seconds, so they are not loosing anything, it barely delays the use of WoG which is a crapy heal since that they need to trade it for a TV. Ask any Ret.