Deadly Throw v Poisoned Shuriken

[Deleted]

With Cata on the horizon and patch 4.xx leering ever closer still, Rogues have finally learned how to apply poisons to their ranged weapon (I almost exclusively use Thrown so I''m not sure if it works for Guns/Bows). I've ben wondering just how useful a feature this is... It strikes me that the only suitable poison to use at range would be Crippling, but trying to get it onto a target without them running/blinking/charging out of range can be tricky cos of the 'cast time' (of course it's fine as a ranged pull or as pitiful ranged dps as far as PvE is concerned).

The other problem with this arrangement is we already have a skill that performs the same function; Deadly Throw. While the damage component and the snare are nice the Combo Point requirement severely limits it's usefulness. So if Blizzard infact intend to give Rogues a medium distance attack they have a few options:

Make Throw instant: There's no reason for a long preperation time to throw, Bows or Guns may need to be drawn, loaded or cocked. A throwing weapon can simply be... well, thrown. With this change Deadly Throw could become obsolete, so may need to be redesigned or removed.

Deadly Throw becomes a combo builder: This would give Rogues something to do when getting into melee range is difficult/impossible. It could lose the snare component and potentially increase the chance to apply poison at range.

Something else I haven't thought of. :P

So what does the rest of the Rogue community think, something needs changing to stop confused, low usefulness skills cluttering up our spellbook, or not an issue at all?

[gabrield]

You can't poison bows or guns, just thrown weapons.
Also I think throw should be instant with a cooldown and can throw while moving, add a CP? maybe not sure. Or make DT a CP builder with a cooldown.

[Lugo Moll]

A combo point builder would be overpowered, but I always wanted an instant throw ability. Auto-throw and auto-shoot for rogues and warriors would also be nice.

[Oweena]

Fan of knives is based off your thrown weapon now. I'm sure thats enough use for throwing weapons

[Mixxy]

Fan of knives is based off your thrown weapon now. I'm sure thats enough use for throwing weapons

This. Being able to poison your Thrown weapons is ONLY for your AoE. I'd expect Instant to be the best poison to have proc off Fan, but that's just me.

Anyways... this is simply Blizz's way of making bows/guns less contested amongst different classes. Now Rogues will ONLY use Thrown, as they won't be able to AoE AT ALL with a gun or bow. It's also a nifty way for Blizz to justify actually having bosses drop Thrown weapons again.

[Mahadev]

This. Being able to poison your Thrown weapons is ONLY for your AoE. I'd expect Instant to be the best poison to have proc off Fan, but that's just me.

Anyways... this is simply Blizz's way of making bows/guns less contested amongst different classes. Now Rogues will ONLY use Thrown, as they won't be able to AoE AT ALL with a gun or bow. It's also a nifty way for Blizz to justify actually having bosses drop Thrown weapons again.

This is actually something I've been thinking about for some time now. I find the idea of being able to poison your throwing weapon to be really cool. However, I completely disagree that this new mechanic should be used for ONLY aoe. Last I checked on the beta even using your regular old 'throw' ability can't even proc the poison on it. I'm hoping that's just an oversight and will be fixed soon.

Now what I think would be a really fun way to use our new third poison is to redo Shiv. They added the de-enrage function to it but its baseline effect, and the one it still has, is to automatically proc your offhand poison. I don't know about the rest of you but it seems pretty useless. If you're in melee with a mob and about to hit shiv, you probably already procced whatever poison it is you wanted to apply anyway. Now if shiv (and it could be renamed to something else, doesn't really matter) instead was a ranged attack that applied your thrown weapon poison, it would actually be really useful. They can give it a cooldown, high energy cost, or both. Whatever they feel is balanced. They would probably have to take away the combo point builder part as well; although I think the de-enrage part could stay. In most cases if we're limited to having to run up to melee to do it, people will just prefer to have hunters continue doing it.

[Millhi]

don't forget http://cata.wowhead.com/spell=16515/...e-also-ability also. so you can spam 3poisons on target mh and oh poison + trowing weapon poison.

[Deleted]

For the mean time though I feel as if 'Throw' should just be instant, but as I said before I feel this starts to overlap with Deadly Throw and that's a concern for me. Building combo points with a ranged Shiv (Mahadev, that's spot on) however would be perfectly fine IMO, our thrown damage is not huge, even with a poison. In PvP it gives you the chance to chase an opponent with greater mobility (new Sprint has certainly helped in that regard) pur some pressure on and hopefully snare them. Adding a Deadly Throw in or waiting and using a Kidney Shot when you have closed doesn't sound any more OP than opening from Stealth, infact your opponent has more options to defend themselves this way. In PvE it's even less of a concern since you'll be doing far less DPS than you would in melee, and you don't have the option to Envenom at 30yds! All that you have to gain is better synergy with Deadly Throw, which would be a fantastic counter to, for e.g. Mages or Hunters which can run circles around a Rogue.

[Varabently]

don't forget http://cata.wowhead.com/spell=16515/...e-also-ability also. so you can spam 3poisons on target mh and oh poison + trowing weapon poison.

Dang I didnt notice that. So if you have like 2 instants and 1 deadly your poison dmg in aoe situations would be high.

[Sesshou]

Anyways... this is simply Blizz's way of making bows/guns less contested amongst different classes. Now Rogues will ONLY use Thrown, as they won't be able to AoE AT ALL with a gun or bow. It's also a nifty way for Blizz to justify actually having bosses drop Thrown weapons again.

The fact that we need one for FoK will not make us not want bows/guns. Better itemized / higher ilvl bows and guns are still better dps. And yeah lets have bliz put lots of items on loot tables that can be used by 1 class. I mean theres 4 daggers in ICC25 alone, 3 of which can be used by only 1 spec of 1 class in the game.

I would much rather have them put the thrown weapons on the vendor and just use heroic bows/guns. Honestly, PvE daggers already piss me off enough when they drop because 1 class (not even the whole class wants them) would even think about using them and then they drop like candy and get sharded. I would much rather them remove items that only 1 class can use from the loot tables and only keep items that multiple classes would want.

[shadowboy]

Last I checked on the beta even using your regular old 'throw' ability can't even proc the poison on it. I'm hoping that's just an oversight and will be fixed soon.

Plain ol' throw procs poisons on 4.0 PTR. Sort of. I did some testing of that functionality and found that wound poison will not proc if you're not in melee range. All other poisons will proc with deadly throw, fan of knives, or throw (and work with fan of knives in melee range). However, the only way I could get wound to proc was using fan of knives in melee range of the target. Throw and deadly throw would not proc wound, and Fan of Knives would not proc wound if you were 5-8yd away.

To OP: I wouldn't think crippling would be what you want for deadly throw. As noted, deadly throw already has a snare component. Mind numbing would be a very useful candidate for deadly throw in pvp (deadly throw the mage, snare him AND increase the cast time of his next cast, assuming the poison procs). This is, of course, assuming you are not specced into throwing specialization, which adds an interrupt component to deadly throw as well. But chances are if you need the interrupt component, mind numbing won't help you much (read: he is currently casting so the cast won't be de-hasted).

[Deleted]

To OP: I wouldn't think crippling would be what you want for deadly throw.

Think you misunderstand the point I was tring to make; Throw with Crippling fulfils the same role as Deadly Throw. Neither is an ideal way of using a ranged snare (throw having a cast time, and crippling may not proc. Deadly needing combo points initially). My issue is that we now have an overlap, seems to me that we should have one way to do it effectively and not 2 that are both a bit... bad.